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-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
pdpfilms said:
Man, you sure are confident. I almost feel bad. Hey, -hh, how about posting the original, unedited photo?

Given how confident Josh is, I think I should offer him a bet: if he can't prove that its a fake, he buys rights to my photo. My fee is what our actual expenses were for the 2 week long vacation in Tanzania...roughly $16K.

When the money's in Escrow, I'll provide the file. :D


Okay, a bit more seriously...

I've read through the thread and there's a couple of things that come to mind.

First off, Jake is technically correct in claiming that the stars move, because the basic facts are that EVERYTHING is moving. However, where he seems to have tripped up is in separating out which effects come from which body's motion(s) and the "significance test" for each.

For the most local example, it gets dark once per day on the Earth because its rotation reveals/hides the Sun (sunrise, sunset).

More complex motion explains the phases of the moon, seasonal changes in the length of the day, how high the sun gets, etc, and these change at a rate fast enough to be perceived by man, whereupon he does things like build Stonehenge and other "alligns perfectly on one day per year" structures. These are closest to us, so their motion is the most easily detected...although a lot of what we're "seeing" is the rotation of the Earth.


A bit further away from Earth, the other planets also rotate around the sun. The ones that are classically most visible - Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter & Saturn - were known to the ancient and were known as "wandering" stars because their paths were known to not be consistent with the "background" of supposedly "fixed" stars of the Ptolemy celestial sphere.

Basically, what came after the belief of a Flat Earth was geocentric model where the Earth was in the middle of the universe, and concentric spheres were defined around it for the moon, sun, etc. The sphere that was the furthest out were of the Heavens, which was considered to be outside of the universe, which was perceived as effectively ending as the surface of a giant hollow ball (that the Earth & everything was inside of), which had a bunch of pinholes ... the stars ... that through which shined the light of the Theological Heaven.

Suffice to say that Ptolemy's Geocentric model of the universe fell apart as we discovered more things in the night sky that had to be modeled. IIRC, explaining the erratic motion of planets became problemmatic once some basic Newtonian Physics Laws (such as "body remain in motion...") became better understood & accepted: the perceived motion of Venus ofen "bobs" up and down near the horizon, which violated basic laws of Conservation of Momentum.

In any event, the Ptolemic system did serve to address one question well, which was why the (true) stars always appeared in the same relative positions night after night after night, even if their orientation relative to the Earth changed day to day and seasonally. We can mimick this today with a standard globe of the Earth: spin and twirl it however you want, but the USA's position relative to Australia remains the same.

Which brings us back to those "everything's moving" stars. Essentially, because these stars are faaaaaaaar away, their rate of angular change is miniscule: not even measurable on a human scale (<100 years) with the naked eye.

To see stars shifing around in the sky that's not due to Earth rotation & precession with the naked eye, we would need a time machine and move around in millennia -to- geologic time scales. Scientists have done models of this stuff (ie, what the Big Dipper looked like during the Ice Age, etc); hopefully someone can find an illustration on the Internet.


Enough about all of that. On to the question of the Milky Way.

First, suppose that you live in a large housing development, with the typical streetlights. If you look out the windows of your house at night, will you be able to see at least one streetlight? Yup.

And if you don't live plumb dab in the middle of the development, the number of streetlights that you're able to see will vary by which direction you look: more towards the center, etc. If you're the guy whose house is on the literal edge of the development, you'll look out the back door and see *no* streetlights. But on the other side of your house, there's so many streetlights shining that you can read a newspaper by them.

The Milky Way galaxy is a billion star "housing development", and they all left a light on.

And probably just as good of a question to point out - if its not the Milky Way, then what is it?


BTW, my recollections from our pilot is that Mufindi (the place where the photo was taken) was around 2,000m elevation. This elevation would also help to clear the night sky too.



-hh
 

baby duck monge

macrumors 68000
Feb 16, 2003
1,570
0
Memphis, TN
-hh said:
Given how confident Josh is, I think I should offer him a bet: if he can prove that its a fake, he buys rights to my photo. My fee is what our actual expenses were for the 2 week long vacation in Tanzania...roughly $16K.

Fixed that for you?
 

Poeben

macrumors 6502
Jul 29, 2004
346
0
Well, this topic has given me a good laugh at the end of a long day. Great photo -hh. I was tempted to grab my tripod the other night and take a similar shot, sans cabin. It was unusually clear except for the front that was off the coast creating some unusually active lightning (couldn't see any bolts as they were behind the clouds.) I was just a bit hesitant to go stick a 6-foot aluminum tripod on the beach right after a lightning storm. The point is I haven't seen a night sky like that in years.

edit- a quick google search gave this simplistic diagram of the Big Dipper:

big_dipper.gif
 

iTwitch

macrumors 6502a
Mar 30, 2006
619
0
East of the Mississippi
andiwm2003 said:
technical question: what lens, aperture, exposure and camera are you using? what is the best setup for starphotography?

i tried once to get a pic of the orion nebula with my film slr and a 300mm f/5.6 lens. i got nothing but blur.:(

You can use anything you want but to get enough light with longer focal lengths you need to increase the expose length. As you discovered at longer expose lengths you get star trails (blurry elongated stars). You need a tracking mount to eliminate trailing, for a camera and lens a barn door mount would do. Google "barn door astrophotography".
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
baby duck monge said:
Fixed that for you?


Whichever. My point is that he had claimed it was a fake, so the burden of proof is on him to prove his claim. If he is unable to do so, then he pays up.

If he catches me in a good mood, instead of the cash, I may be able to be bribed with a genuine Philly Cheese Steak. Its a 100 mile run (one way) from my house down to Pat's or Gino's... :p


-hh
 

baby duck monge

macrumors 68000
Feb 16, 2003
1,570
0
Memphis, TN
-hh said:
Whichever. My point is that he had claimed it was a fake, so the burden of proof is on him to prove his claim. If he is unable to do so, then he pays up.

That's what my edit was saying. I completely agree with you. Also, even if it is fake, I think it's an extremely neat picture and would love to have a copy large enough to make a desktop for both my Mini and my PowerBook. :)

-hh said:
If he catches me in a good mood, instead of the cash, I may be able to be bribed with a genuine Philly Cheese Steak. Its a 100 mile run (one way) from my house down to Pat's or Gino's... :p


-hh

Heh, with a run that long you will have just barely managed to burn all the calories from a particularly good Philly Cheese Steak sammich. Speaking of which, I find myself particularly hungry...
 

Rower_CPU

Moderator emeritus
Oct 5, 2001
11,219
2
San Diego, CA
iTwitch said:
Not powerful equipment but long periods of time.

Technically it's both - the powerful equipment helps you look far enough out that you're looking "back in time" and the equipment also helps you detect red/blue shifts as stars move away from/towards us. ;)
 

-hh

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2001
2,550
336
NJ Highlands, Earth
OT ... mmmmmm!

Over Achiever said:
Mmm ... I hate being off topic, but where would you recommend one get an amazing Philly cheese steak sandwich to die for in Phildelphia, ...

I went to school (Drexel University) in Philly. The purists will tell you that you either go to Pat's Steak, or to Gino's across the street. These establishments are "way down" in South Philly (too far from campus to seriously contemplate a run when one didn't own a car).

As such, the general rule of thumb is that most Philly neighborhoods have someplace relatively local that people will say is the right trade-off between goodness and convenience. For Drexel back when I was going there, that place was considered to be Mad Greeks (IIRC, Powelton Avenue, near 34th Street?).

Now that I have a car, its 100 miles to the Philadelphia, PA city limits, which makes Cheese Steak noshing a rare event. My Cholesterol level's bad enough, so that's probably a good thing.


...or the east coast for that matter ...

"Hoagie Haven" on the Princeton University, NJ, campus passes the test. They get their bread from a Philly area bakery. Curiously, they add fresh lettuce and tomato, which does compliment the sandwich nicely. I happen to know that they're exactly 47 miles from my front door. :rolleyes:

There's also some pretty good places along the NJ Shore too, but I'm just not familiar enough with any of them to specifically recommend any.

While there are some parts of the USA that don't know what cheap frozen minute steaks are, overall, the thing that seems to be hardest to reproduce outside of Philly is the bread and its texture. I've now travelled to 45 States within the USA and for the most part have found that the "Genuine Philly Cheese Steaks" on most menu's aren't worth ordering, unless all you're expecting is a hot beef sandwich.

The best bet there is to find a local hoagie/subway/grinder shop that's willing to customize a sandwich and teach them to make a good one. The thing to keep in mind is that the cook has probably never eaten a real Philly cheese steak, let alone eaten one at 3AM :eek: , so they need to be talked through it. To this end, you need to find a small local independent "Mom & Pop" place, and the first couple times, only request one to be made when they're not busy.


...BTW, thanks for asking: I now have a conceptual topic for my POTD on Saturday :D , as well as a voting suggestion for next month's assignment: "Regional Foods".



-hh
 

hob

macrumors 68010
Oct 4, 2003
2,004
0
London, UK
I just got back from South Africa - spent a few weeks there, both around the city and in the outback...

I realised I need a new camera!

I have a Canon Powershot S50, which has been perfectly serviceable for the past coupla years, it's a consumer camera with a pro twist...

I was kinda dissapointed with some of the shots I got of the wildlife from it though, thought I could definately do with a 500mm lens or something....

Then I saw this photo.

I'm gonna start saving!
 

Josh

macrumors 68000
Mar 4, 2004
1,640
1
State College, PA
topicolo said:
From the lack of posts from Josh, I think he's gotten the point :)

No - the lack of posts (minus this one) came directly after I said there is nothing more to discuss, because there is not. Stars move relative to their origin and relative to an Earth-based obversever, over time. Do they return to a similar position? Yes - they have a circular like orbit (both in relative) and eventually get to similar positions again. But the likelihood of two photos showing all of them in the same precise spots (same point on their orbits/same position relative to us) is highly unlikely. That's science that I'm not going to debate with anyone. If someone wanted to debate whether 2 came between 1 and 3, it would be just as silly.

Further, the burden of proof is not on me. No one can prove it without the actual files or secret video recordings of the photo being editted. I could Photoshop a billion images, and no one would ever have any way to definitively prove I used photoshop on any of them.

HH could clear this up very easily with an unaltered RAW file - but don't expect that from him.

If you guys want to buy into magical photos and unsound reasoning, go for it. I just can't wait until someone posts a pic of a unicorn, because I know exactly which group will believe it's real :)
 

Mitthrawnuruodo

Moderator emeritus
Mar 10, 2004
14,558
1,323
Bergen, Norway
Josh said:
Stars move relative to their origin and relative to an Earth-based obversever, over time. Do they return to a similar position? Yes - they have a circular like orbit (both in relative) and eventually get to similar positions again. But the likelihood of two photos showing all of them in the same precise spots (same point on their orbits/same position relative to us) is highly unlikely.
No, actually that's what's expected... unless you're talking several thousand years... that's what fixed stars mean... :rolleyes:

A fixed star (from the Latin stellae fixae) is any celestial object that does not seem to move in relation to the other stars of the night sky. Hence, a fixed star is any star except for the Sun.

Get out a science book... then you'll see that parallax is unnoticeable to the naked eye (or any regular photography) and stop arguing this nonsense... :mad:
 

gauchogolfer

macrumors 603
Jan 28, 2005
5,551
5
American Riviera
Josh said:
starsbl3.gif


Myth = busted.

Josh, I know that the tone of this debate has gotten a bit heated sometimes, and may seem personal, so I want to say right out front that no offense is intended.

If you look at the image overlay you did, you immediately notice that many of the stars are not in the same place. Also, since the size of the image is not large enough, we cannot see the relation of the Milky Way to any other celestial objects (at least none that I recognize). BUT, and this is very important to remember, our solar system is inside the Milky Way. Our position relative to the center of the disk is basically unchanging as we orbit around it. The stars on the exact opposite side of the center remain there, as do the ones to our 'left' and 'right'. So, any time you look at the center of the Milky Way, you see the same thing.

Think of it this way: if you are riding on a carousel, looking at the other riders with you, your relative positions don't change. Neither does your view of the center. Now, as you turn around, what you see on the outside of the carousel obviously changes. But, this has no effect on your static frame of reference.

The exact same situation holds true for our solar system in the Milky Way. Our planet orbits the sun, but if we look to the center of the galaxy, we'll see the exact same thing.
 

andiwm2003

macrumors 601
Mar 29, 2004
4,390
462
Boston, MA
Josh said:
No - the lack of posts (minus this one) came directly after I said there is nothing more to discuss, because there is not. Stars move relative to their origin and relative to an Earth-based obversever, over time. Do they return to a similar position? Yes - they have a circular like orbit (both in relative) and eventually get to similar positions again. But the likelihood of two photos showing all of them in the same precise spots (same point on their orbits/same position relative to us) is highly unlikely. That's science that I'm not going to debate with anyone. If someone wanted to debate whether 2 came between 1 and 3, it would be just as silly.

Further, the burden of proof is not on me. No one can prove it without the actual files or secret video recordings of the photo being editted. I could Photoshop a billion images, and no one would ever have any way to definitively prove I used photoshop on any of them.

HH could clear this up very easily with an unaltered RAW file - but don't expect that from him.

If you guys want to buy into magical photos and unsound reasoning, go for it. I just can't wait until someone posts a pic of a unicorn, because I know exactly which group will believe it's real :)


this is hopeless.
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,929
265
Josh said:
That's science that I'm not going to debate with anyone.


Good on you... never admit to being wrong, never concede. Use the word 'science' without dealing with the facts. So then please debate this matter of historical record:

Clyde Tombaugh found Pluto by systematically taking pictures of the solar system. He took pictures in pairs, one or two weeks apart, and looked for anything that moved. The idea is that planets would appear to shift against the backdrop of stars because the the earth had moved to a new viewing angle over the intervening two-week period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,929
265
MacSA said:
I was the orbital motion of Pluto that gave it away...

That's what I first thought. Same difference — the principle still holds; namely, movement against a static backdrop of stars over a period of weeks...
 

law guy

macrumors 6502a
Jan 17, 2003
997
0
Western Massachusetts
Josh said:
No - the lack of posts (minus this one) came directly after I said there is nothing more to discuss, because there is not. Stars move relative to their origin and relative to an Earth-based obversever, over time. Do they return to a similar position? Yes - they have a circular like orbit (both in relative) and eventually get to similar positions again. But the likelihood of two photos showing all of them in the same precise spots (same point on their orbits/same position relative to us) is highly unlikely. That's science that I'm not going to debate with anyone. If someone wanted to debate whether 2 came between 1 and 3, it would be just as silly.

Further, the burden of proof is not on me. No one can prove it without the actual files or secret video recordings of the photo being editted. I could Photoshop a billion images, and no one would ever have any way to definitively prove I used photoshop on any of them.

HH could clear this up very easily with an unaltered RAW file - but don't expect that from him.

If you guys want to buy into magical photos and unsound reasoning, go for it. I just can't wait until someone posts a pic of a unicorn, because I know exactly which group will believe it's real :)

Josh, you're the one who has asserted that Milky Way can't even be photographed because we're part of that galaxy. I'm glad to see you've at least dropped that notion.

A star chart is going to be the same day after day - you can move it to find where the stars are in their same position relative to where you are. The constellations appear as they did when named by the classical civilizations. A mariner navigating by the night sky in 18th century wouldn't have a new sky to learn. They will move noticably over tens of thousands of years. Of course the observable movement of stars over an evening is only caused by the rotation of the Earth - the sky appears to rotate counter clockwise around a fixed North Star (Polaris).

There's quite a bit on star movement out there. Here's a nice simple upshot for kids: http://www.new-sng.com/bumpans5.cfm; http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q181.html; http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=378;
 

ahunter3

macrumors 6502
Oct 15, 2003
377
5
I was thinking of going to Europe for a visit, but what with continental drift and all, I guess there's no telling where it'll be by the time my flight is called. Oh well.
 

gauchogolfer

macrumors 603
Jan 28, 2005
5,551
5
American Riviera
ahunter3 said:
I was thinking of going to Europe for a visit, but what with continental drift and all, I guess there's no telling where it'll be by the time my flight is called. Oh well.

Hey, be sure to take a picture of the Milky Way so we can see what it looks like over on that side of the world :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 

Josh

macrumors 68000
Mar 4, 2004
1,640
1
State College, PA
law guy said:
Josh, you're the one who has asserted that Milky Way can't even be photographed because we're part of that galaxy. I'm glad to see you've at least dropped that notion.

A star chart is going to be the same day after day - you can move it to find where the stars are in their same position relative to where you are. The constellations appear as they did when named by the classical civilizations. A mariner navigating by the night sky in 18th century wouldn't have a new sky to learn. They will move noticably over tens of thousands of years. Of course the observable movement of stars over an evening is only caused by the rotation of the Earth - the sky appears to rotate counter clockwise around a fixed North Star (Polaris).

There's quite a bit on star movement out there. Here's a nice simple upshot for kids: http://www.new-sng.com/bumpans5.cfm; http://www.astronomycafe.net/qadir/q181.html; http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=378;


I never said the milky way could not be photographed :confused: I said that it would be completely different when photographed from outside than it is from photographed from earth.

What I am saying is not that the stars are shifting to new postitions they've never been to before. I never claimed that the sky we see in 2006 is entirely different from one seen in 1492.

What I am saying is that the stars, relative to us (due to earth's rotation) do change positions in the sky on a nightly and seasonal basis.

You can expect to see the big dipper here all summer long. But you're not going to see it in December.

For a simple, albiet lenghty, experiment, take a photo of the sky in June. Record the exact position and angle of the camera (or leave it there somehow) and take a picture each month for 1 year.

You will clearly see the stars "moving" to new positions as the year goes on, and the photos during opposite seasons (such as winter and summer) will be drastically different.

This difference is not something that happens suddenly, on a certain date when the stars automatically "switch."

It happens gradually as time goes on, as the seasons change.

That info is what is my conclusion that two different photos, from two different people at different times of the year, are highly unlikely to show the same stars in the same positions (relative to the observer).

Each summer you can expect the sky to look similar year after year - they remain pretty similar on a year-to-year basis. But seasonaly, they will look different, as their (and our) orbits' cause them to make a continous cycle of change.

Eventually I'll get to see the same constellations here that I saw last winter, but I won't see them tonight or next month. I have to wait until winter again, since the positions are not constant (relative to a fixed position on earth) season after season.

If you've ever seen time-lapsed photos of the night sky over one night, you will even see that stars don't remain in the same "spot" throughout the night. They leave trails from their apparent "motion" caused by our rotations.

http://www.space.com/spacewatch/seasonal_stars_030207.html
Space.com said:
Evening skywatchers in the Northern Hemisphere enjoy Orion the Hunter only during the cold wintry months, for example. Spring evenings provide a view of the Sickle of Leo, the Lion. In summer, the stars of Scorpius, the Scorpion dominate the southern sky. And the Great Square of Pegasus vies for the stargazer's attention on fall evenings.

What's going on? Armed with some facts, you can do a little observing and conduct a simple experiment in order to easily grasp this important celestial concept.

Watch the night sky on any night from dusk to dawn you'll notice certain stars rising from the eastern horizon. They sweep across the sky during the night, finally setting beneath the western horizon by dawn. No big deal here, since, after all, the Sun does the same thing during the daylight hours.
...

As our Earth whirls through space around the Sun, its motions cause night and day, the four seasons and the passage of the years. And if we were to synchronize our clocks using the motions of the stars as a reference we would discover that the Earth would complete a single turn on its axis not in 24 hours, but actually four minutes shy of that oft-quoted figure: 23 hours 56 minutes.

As a result, the stars appear to rise, cross the sky, and set 4 minutes earlier each night.

...

This can be made clearer by trying an experiment:

Look skyward on any night and pick out a bright star, then line it up with a nearby landmark (like a telephone pole or the peak of your neighbor's roof). Make sure you note the exact time and the exact spot when you lined up the star.

Then come back the next night at the exact same time and stand in the exact same place. You'll see that the star has apparently shifted slightly to the right (west) of the position that it was at the previous night.
 
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