MP 7,1 Most won’t be able to afford a new Mac Pro

[kissmo]

I think Apple is splitting the pro into 2 categories:
1 - Enthusiastic/ startups for which Imac Pro should be the focus
2 - Big corporates for which the Mac Pro is in the picture

999 for the stand is a lot but check other pro Displays for Movies and Studio industries - I am talking large ones - and you will be surprised. Prices there are around 4-600 usd for stands.

At least to me it feels they want to address really large studio makers with these machines.

 

[AFITgrad86]

As excited we are with any announcement at WWDC, realistically, the majority of Mac enthusiasts likely won’t be able to afford a Mac Pro.

Prices will likely start around $5K, so unless you’re a professional, or a company that needs the horsepower, you might be better off with an iMac.

I doubt we’ll ever see a $1500-$2500 breakout tower. It’s not like the old days where a hobbyist can afford to tinker with an expansion slot based G4 Power Mac or Cheese Grater Mac.

[doublepost=1559751917][/doublepost]Price-wise the new 8 core Pro starts roughly where the previous generation (trashcan) Mack Pro was at for a far less capable machine. Remember (or maybe it was before your time) the 1983 Lisa was 10K - roughly 25k in todays's money.

People asked for a "Professional" level machine and I think Apple did a very worthy job of providing one - albeit at a professional level price. While benchmarks and comparisons are not available it's pretty obvious that Apple has carefully slotted their new Pro such that it overlaps the iMac Pro at the bottom end and then moves on towards the stratosphere. In context, the iMac has things covered capability size from an i5 to an i9 8 core. The iMac Pro picks up where its iMac leaves off at 5K (perhaps with a little iMac overlap) with the Xeon W (sounds like much the same as in the new Mac Pro btw) from 8 to 18 cores and Pro Vega 64X coming in at about 10k. Now the new Pro starts pretty much where that leaves off (less display) at 5K with an 8 core and a basic 580 video card and going to infinity and beyond.

 

[handheldgames]

For reference...

Back in 1993, I purchased a new Quadra 840av with 40MB of ram from an Apple authorized dealer for $3200( $300 under list price) + $600 for 40GB of ram + tax. etc...

For reference, $3500 in 1993 is about $6000 today.

With that in mind.. It shows that while the price of the nCMP at $6000 is in-line with Apple's historical pricing from the 1993, its a shame we have to go back to 1993 for a price comparison.

 

[CWallace]

Funny how on the new Mac Pro, the issue of drive bays was not discussed... Because they're no longer there.

Third parties are already offering Apple-approved solutions, however.

https://9to5mac.com/2019/06/04/promise-pegasus-mac-pro-storage/

 

[Plutonius]

As excited we are with any announcement at WWDC, realistically, the majority of Mac enthusiasts likely won’t be able to afford a Mac Pro.

Prices will likely start around $5K, so unless you’re a professional, or a company that needs the horsepower, you might be better off with an iMac.

I doubt we’ll ever see a $1500-$2500 breakout tower. It’s not like the old days where a hobbyist can afford to tinker with an expansion slot based G4 Power Mac or Cheese Grater Mac.

The Mac Pro is targeted towards businesses.

The closest thing to a hobbyist computer from Apple is currently the Mac Mini with some external expansion.

Funny how on the new Mac Pro, the issue of drive bays was not discussed.

Maybe not internal drives but with an external Thunderbolt enclosure, you will be able to have more drives than the cMP can hold.

 

[Kpjoslee]

This is based on a questionable leak by none other than Huawei. It has not been confirmed by Intel at all. And that is on the condition that Intel can meet 10nm production for enterprise and mass market. They cannot at the moment. The 10nm parts they produce are low TDP.

Intel’s own roadmap also has Sapphire Rapids on 2021 so I would say it is pretty legit. Ice Lake server is already sampling so i think they will actually make it this time.

PCI 4.0 specification finalized in Oct. 2017, and we are going to see first PCIe4 based on boards in July with Ryzen 3 series. Meanwhile, PCIe 5.0 specification is on version 0.9, which means it is close to final specification and we will see it finalized within this year. If history is any indication, it is safe bet to assume it is coming in 2021. With only a two years gap between PCIe 4 and 5, it looks like Intel will mostly skip over 4.0 and jump straight to 5.

 

[0388631]

Intel’s own roadmap also has Sapphire Rapids on 2021 so I would say it is pretty legit. Ice Lake server is already sampling so i think they will actually make it this time.

You're referring to the investors call. The Intel slide was leaked by Huawei.
[doublepost=1559757749][/doublepost]

PCI 4.0 specification finalized in Oct. 2017, and we are going to see first PCIe4 based on boards in July with Ryzen 3 series. Meanwhile, PCIe 5.0 specification is on version 0.9, which means it is close to final specification and we will see it finalized within this year. If history is any indication, it is safe bet to assume it is coming in 2021. With only a two years gap between PCIe 4 and 5, it looks like Intel will mostly skip over 4.0 and jump straight to 5.

Read my earlier post where I explained this. PCIe 4 was finalized much earlier than 2017 but went under several revisions and was finalized for the last time in 2017.


FWIW, Intel also said they'd have 10nm processors several years ago. They did **** all in that department and still can't get 10nm desktop production done with high yields. There isn't going to be any notable products to run near PCIe 5's theoretical speeds. You'd need some sort of cooling unless Intel also plans on shrinking their chipset to combat higher power needs. It'll be expensive for companies to research and produce products for B2C when B2B is the bread and butter for products like a very fast enterprise SSD.

And even then, you still need to design a controller that can deliver such high I/O at a constant rate and not fail. The Intel 10nm parts shipping later this year are very low TDP mobile processors. They're not full fledged desktop processors. Intel can't and hasn't been able to produce quality desktop processors at 10nm for years now.


Intel producing 10nm Xeon by 2021 is laughable at best. Especially when consumers won't see desktop 10nm processors until 2022.

 

[ROQIT]

As excited we are with any announcement at WWDC, realistically, the majority of Mac enthusiasts likely won’t be able to afford a Mac Pro.

Prices will likely start around $5K, so unless you’re a professional, or a company that needs the horsepower, you might be better off with an iMac.

I doubt we’ll ever see a $1500-$2500 breakout tower. It’s not like the old days where a hobbyist can afford to tinker with an expansion slot based G4 Power Mac or Cheese Grater Mac.

[doublepost=1559760447][/doublepost]Agreed. And as a Mac user since 1986, I want to say how disappointed I am that I’ve supported such elitist technology that prides itself, seemingly, with making sure the wealthy class is far and away more well served than average Americans. I’ve come to dislike everything sleek and shiny about a company I once revered for its commitment to democratizing access of individuals to top notch computing tools... Apple courts avarice.

 

[dark_skies]

[doublepost=1559760447][/doublepost]
Agreed. And as a Mac user since 1986, I want to say how disappointed I am that I’ve supported such elitist technology that prides itself, seemingly, with making sure the wealthy class is far and away more well served than average Americans...

Jeez, 1986? That makes you as old as ... me. And having a premium-priced tower with extraordinary power is just fine with me. The problem is the rest of their line is out of whack. Even the MacBook Air is priced at premium levels - with the seemingly inevitable big price cuts announced to move stock. The CEO is getting bad advice, I think, about what sells and what would sell. I think many of us imagine a fairly modest mini-tower that is expandable and that works great with Mac OS - with BTO or connectivity opens for larger rotating disk / SSD / GPUs - as selling like crazy. Apple continues to not-build it and instead solders RAM onto motherboards, sticks with apparently flawed keyboards, deletes ports (not advantageous for users!) etc. I feel the user experience - that which used to be Apple's forte - has slipped well down the list of priorities. This not only limits our current options but also hope for changes down the line. As a frequent mac owner as well as an Apple investor, that is discouraging. I still own a 2015 MBP and iMac and wonder if I'll be leaving the brand for good.

 

[eyeCloudGuy]

As excited we are with any announcement at WWDC, realistically, the majority of Mac enthusiasts likely won’t be able to afford a Mac Pro.

Prices will likely start around $5K, so unless you’re a professional, or a company that needs the horsepower, you might be better off with an iMac.

I doubt we’ll ever see a $1500-$2500 breakout tower. It’s not like the old days where a hobbyist can afford to tinker with an expansion slot based G4 Power Mac or Cheese Grater Mac.

I think it there might be a market for an updated Mac Pro 2013...maybe calling it the Mac miniPro...LOL....that might fit a nice niche...as there are some good upgrade options available for it so maybe it could last a few more years.

I got "turned on" to Apple at the computer side when my son gave me his 2005 Mac mini PowerPC machine right at four years ago. I love Apple products and I can see market for this high-end machine specifically in the entertainment business but I'd love to hear more how this might used in the sciences....that would be cool.

Great post and thanks,
Tom
[doublepost=1559764731][/doublepost]

Jeez, 1986? That makes you as old as ... me. And having a premium-priced tower with extraordinary power is just fine with me. The problem is the rest of their line is out of whack. Even the MacBook Air is priced at premium levels - with the seemingly inevitable big price cuts announced to move stock. The CEO is getting bad advice, I think, about what sells and what would sell. I think many of us imagine a fairly modest mini-tower that is expandable and that works great with Mac OS - with BTO or connectivity opens for larger rotating disk / SSD / GPUs - as selling like crazy. Apple continues to not-build it and instead solders RAM onto motherboards, sticks with apparently flawed keyboards, deletes ports (not advantageous for users!) etc. I feel the user experience - that which used to be Apple's forte - has slipped well down the list of priorities. This not only limits our current options but also hope for changes down the line. As a frequent mac owner as well as an Apple investor, that is discouraging. I still own a 2015 MBP and iMac and wonder if I'll be leaving the brand for good.

Whoa! 1986...I'm prolly as old as both of you....just hit 59 this year but in my 20's I really wanted the Apple IIc bad....bad...bad.....never got one thought but had fun in Unix with the company I worked for.

Maybe we should do virtual coffee. Points taken about elitist, and expandability. It would be nice for a well equipped Mac of whatever type to be accessible to anyone. Also the used market is a good place. All of the Macs I have were previously but well cared for.

It is a good thing to connect to one's creative side via Apple products...that's been a huge help personally. So many good places to go on this thread.

Thanks for the insights have an awesome day fellow baby boomers....hopefully not assuming too much there.

Tom

 

[Sg335man]

As excited we are with any announcement at WWDC, realistically, the majority of Mac enthusiasts likely won’t be able to afford a Mac Pro.

Prices will likely start around $5K, so unless you’re a professional, or a company that needs the horsepower, you might be better off with an iMac.

I doubt we’ll ever see a $1500-$2500 breakout tower. It’s not like the old days where a hobbyist can afford to tinker with an expansion slot based G4 Power Mac or Cheese Grater Mac.

Your so right? And here in the U.K. add 20% sales Tax omg

 

[Horselover Fat]

I seem to recall Apple recently refreshing the MacBook Pro and iMac in the past few weeks. And we should see an iMac Pro refresh by years end when the Basin Falls Xeons ship.

Or are we artificially restricting our arguments only to Macs without displays?

Can you imagine that there are people who don't want an AIO? What do you think why towers have been in existence for so long?

 

[handheldgames]

[doublepost=1559760447][/doublepost]
Agreed. And as a Mac user since 1986, I want to say how disappointed I am that I’ve supported such elitist technology that prides itself, seemingly, with making sure the wealthy class is far and away more well served than average Americans. I’ve come to dislike everything sleek and shiny about a company I once revered for its commitment to democratizing access of individuals to top notch computing tools... Apple courts avarice.

Wait... It took 33 years to realize this?

Historically speaking, Apple's products have always been placed as a premium/elitist technology. Users invested in the platform because it delivered functionality that no other platform could offer. Allowing those who bought-in to make more money that with any other system. Whether it's 1986 with the$2599 Mac Plus and a $6995 laserwriter, 1993 with the $3500 Quadra 840av and a $2000 radius Video Vision, or today with the cNMP at $6000. Apple's platforms have enabled creatives to do more.. faster.. at a higher level of quality.. that in turn generates more revenue. This is in essence exactly what the nCMP delivers... What am I missing? I would not be where I am today if I didn't invest in Apple's platforms...

 

[s15119]

Purely conjecture. That’s what forums are for, right?

Well, you sure knocked that one out of the park. Good on ya.

 

[RN_FNP]

As excited we are with any announcement at WWDC, realistically, the majority of Mac enthusiasts likely won’t be able to afford a Mac Pro.

Prices will likely start around $5K, so unless you’re a professional, or a company that needs the horsepower, you might be better off with an iMac.

I doubt we’ll ever see a $1500-$2500 breakout tower. It’s not like the old days where a hobbyist can afford to tinker with an expansion slot based G4 Power Mac or Cheese Grater Mac.

 

[thevault]

[doublepost=1559760447][/doublepost]
Agreed. And as a Mac user since 1986, I want to say how disappointed I am that I’ve supported such elitist technology that prides itself, seemingly, with making sure the wealthy class is far and away more well served than average Americans. I’ve come to dislike everything sleek and shiny about a company I once revered for its commitment to democratizing access of individuals to top notch computing tools... Apple courts avarice.

Elitist, greed... many other options......mini, iMacPro, Hackintosh, Windows build...you don't have to buy

 

[masterbaron]

I’ve come to dislike everything sleek and shiny about a company I once revered for its commitment to democratizing access of individuals to top notch computing tools... Apple courts avarice.

So spot on it's not funny but let's also be honest at this ripe age who, if any of us really needs the power of the MacPro - we reveled in the high-end in the 80's and 90's ... spent days in CompUSA ... mixed and matched and soldered if necessary but like Radio Shack it's time has come and gone. Adequate power and simplicity rein it in for me albeit no longer considered Pro. ... more like Senior ...

 

[Gwaredd Thomas]

"The new Mac Pro that will be available to buy in the fall is a hot topic because of its design (the term "cheese grater" is a common descriptor used) and its price. Starting at $5,999 for the computer itself."

Six-thousand quid for a Mac!? Sure, tell me another fairy story. When my current Mac goes in the can I'll either get it repaired locally, or I'll do without. To hell with Apple; I've got better things on which to spend my sovereigns. What a joke!

PS: And, I won't buy any of Gates' Microshit either.

 

[Kpjoslee]

Intel producing 10nm Xeon by 2021 is laughable at best. Especially when consumers won't see desktop 10nm processors until 2022.

I will have to disagree with you there. When you have less than ideal yield, volume, and performance which has been an issue with 10nm, desktop processors will see the least priority. They require the highest clocks, and also happens to be the most sensitive market for price. So given the strict requirement that desktop processors need, it is likely that Intel will skip 10nm for desktop processor and focus it on mobile and servers until they can move to 7nm in 2021.

 

[slomojoe]

[doublepost=1559760447][/doublepost]
Agreed. And as a Mac user since 1986, I want to say how disappointed I am that I’ve supported such elitist technology that prides itself, seemingly, with making sure the wealthy class is far and away more well served than average Americans. I’ve come to dislike everything sleek and shiny about a company I once revered for its commitment to democratizing access of individuals to top notch computing tools... Apple courts avarice.

i don’t see this ... i bought my first mac about 1986 also and they were expensive then and still are

there is nothing elitist about this new mac pro, it is clearly aimed at people who make their living needing a lot of computing horsepower

a mac mini with an i7 and 32gb of ram should serve most home users just fine ... way more than fine because the i5 with 16gb is a very good machine

for those for whom the mac mini won’t work there is the pro

the idea that apple is suddenly “elitist” strikes me as silly, they have always, since day one been on the leading edge and always expensive

they democratized access by being easier to use but not by being inexpensive, not that i ever remember

 

[0388631]

I will have to disagree with you there. When you have less than ideal yield, volume, and performance which has been an issue with 10nm, desktop processors will see the least priority. They require the highest clocks, and also happens to be the most sensitive market for price. So given the strict requirement that desktop processors need, it is likely that Intel will skip 10nm for desktop processor and focus it on mobile and servers until they can move to 7nm in 2021.

Erm no. Desktops are lower binned processors than laptops and server processors. Try again.

Goes:

Server
Laptop
High End/HEDT Desktop
Mainstream Desktop
Low end Desktop

Ignoring the fact that a server processor isn't cut on the same wafer as a desktop processor nor the same size... Laptop processors are the best binned because they need to be very low TDP while being able to maintain a certain speed and boost to a certain speed. Intel designs their chips to stagger and wave their boost so as not to maintain a constant frequency causing overheating.

In Task Manager, you'll see it report as 100% on all threads, but a decent monitoring app will see the multiplier go up and down hundreds of times a minute to keep thermal throttling at bay unless a fan can't keep it cool enough.

 

[Gwaredd Thomas]

Apple never had a Mac Pro for less than $2499,00, why do you think that a new one will be cheaper since everything Apple is costlier today?

Mac Pro is a niche product with low sales volume, it won’t be cheaper.

Edit:

You can still read the press releases and check prices:

2006 Mac Pro (2x2core 2.66GHz $2499) August 7, 2006 PRESS RELEASE Apple Unveils New Mac Pro Featuring Quad 64-bit Xeon Processors
2007 Mac Pro (8core $2799*) no PR
2008 Mac Pro (8core $2799) January 8, 2008 PRESS RELEASE Apple Introduces New Mac Pro
2009 Mac Pro (4core $2499, 8core $3299) March 3, 2009 PRESS RELEASE Apple Introduces New Mac Pro
2010 Mac Pro (4core $2499, 8core $3499, 12core $4999*) July 27, 2010 PRESS RELEASE Apple Unveils New Mac Pro With Up to 12 Processing Cores
2012 Mac Pro (4core $2499*, 8core $3799*) no PR
2013 Mac Pro (4core $2999, 6core $3999) December 18, 2013 PRESS RELEASE All New Mac Pro Available Starting Tomorrow

*Mactracker prices.

My best advice then mate is to go ahead and drop six thousand quid. Just don't plan on eating for a few months unless you're a millionaire.

 

[Kpjoslee]

Erm no. Desktops are lower binned processors than laptops and server processors. Try again.

Goes:

Server
Laptop
High End/HEDT Desktop
Mainstream Desktop
Low end Desktop

Ignoring the fact that a server processor isn't cut on the same wafer as a desktop processor nor the same size... Laptop processors are the best binned because they need to be very low TDP while being able to maintain a certain speed and boost to a certain speed. Intel designs their chips to stagger and wave their boost so as not to maintain a constant frequency causing overheating.

In Task Manager, you'll see it report as 100% on all threads, but a decent monitoring app will see the multiplier go up and down hundreds of times a minute to keep thermal throttling at bay unless a fan can't keep it cool enough.

Servers do need large dies, but clock requirements aren't as demanding and chips will have a high margin so they can actually put more effort into it. Also for the mobile, they also provide decent margin, needs to be efficient but not required to hit the highest clocks, and will have the highest volume. For the Desktop processors, it will have lowest margin, volume isn't high, and requires highest clocks. It is obvious that desktop processors will be on the bottom of Intel's priority list.

Simply saying desktop processors are lower binned isn't accurate, they just have different requirement and demand highest single core performance, which means it needs to hit the higest single core frequency. Their current 10nm isn't capable of hitting frequencies on the level of their 14nm+, and that will be the reason wny they don't have any desktop processors planned for 10nm atm.

 

[0388631]

Servers do need large dies, but clock requirements aren't as demanding and chips will have a high margin so they can actually put more effort into it. Also for the mobile, they also provide decent margin, needs to be efficient not required to hit the highest clocks, and will have the highest volume. For the Desktop processors, it will have lowest margin, volume isn't high, and requires highest clocks.

Can you say anything but reiterate what I said?
[doublepost=1559772036][/doublepost]

Simply saying desktop processors are lower binned isn't accurate, they just have different requirement and demand highest single core performance, which means it needs to hit the higest single core frequency. Their current 10nm isn't capable of hitting frequencies on the level of their 14nm+, and that will be the reason wny they don't have any desktop processors planned for 10nm atm.

Not quite. They're lower binned in the grand scale of what's put out. OEM vendor chips are likely to be lower quality than OEM chips, if that makes sense. A chip going to Dell or HP is going to be locked in at a speed and not be a great clocker compared to the same chip in an OEM box. Current 10nm isn't capable of hitting the same frequency at 14nm++++++ and more. Xeons are different as you pointed out. More refined instruction sets, distributed workload, etc. Xeons, and back in the day, Opterons, did large work gracefully whereas an Athlon64 or P4 chugged alone and created a space heater.

Intel messed up by retooling 14nm plants to 10nm and back to 14 and back to 10. They announced 10nm back in 2012 and said they'd have it by 2014, then 2016, 2017, and so on. They can't do it. They also backed themselves into a corner with the 9900K since it's pushing against a wall where the RoI on frequency increases don't bring in more I/O in relation to heat output.

That said, I'd expect some AMD hardware in the future from Apple as Intel won't have a viable processor for mainstream until 2022 to 2023.

 

[lostraxx]

As excited we are with any announcement at WWDC, realistically, the majority of Mac enthusiasts likely won’t be able to afford a Mac Pro.

Prices will likely start around $5K, so unless you’re a professional, or a company that needs the horsepower, you might be better off with an iMac.

I doubt we’ll ever see a $1500-$2500 breakout tower. It’s not like the old days where a hobbyist can afford to tinker with an expansion slot based G4 Power Mac or Cheese Grater Mac.

That is why I bought a 6 Core 2013 mac pro last year with 32MB RAM and 480 GB SSD for $1900. With a price of $5999 for starters, being retired I figured it would be my last chance to own a high performance Mac that did not have integrated monitor, so outside the chassis expansion doesn't look too bad these days. I am not a movie maker, but I do music production occasionally and the occasional video, so I figure a win-win for me. I also do some FileMaker consulting, so it works for me.