Mountain Lion vs. Windows 8

[fattire357]

I just tried using Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and yeah its a beta, but WOW, if the final product is anything similar to the preview, that thing is a mess.

They changed everything, but it feels really dumb where things are placed. The cool thing about a mac is that it is intuitive enough that most people can pick it up and know how to work it.

I spent the greater part of 30 minutes trying to figure out how to restart it to go back into OSX.

The solution? You have to click the bottom left hand part of the screen (despite nothing to clue you into that) - then click your name on the top right part of the screen and log yourself out - then you have to click and drag the entire screen up so you can see another set of icons in the bottom right hand corner that includes a shutdown screen.

There may be an easier solution than that - but it really shouldn't be THAT hard to find out.

This is a huge mess.

----------

I'm dual booting ML and W8 and I have to say that Windows 8 is probably the least user friendly OS that I've ever used. Here are my observations.

• Start menu is completely removed. Simple things like shutting down your computer just got a lot harder.
• Metro UI seems to be slapped on top of Windows 7. Feels like two separate operating systems.
• Gestures are awful. Things involve clicking and dragging from random places on the screen to get to options and menus and it's extremely unintuitive. I've used PCs for years before getting a Mac and the learning curve for Windows 8 is tremendous. New PC users will be confused as hell trying to get used to this.
• (In my opinion) Metro just sucks. Things are forced to be full screen, there's no menus and it's just counter productive. Serious hinderance of multitasking.
• Speaking of Multitasking, there's no way to close opened Metro apps.
• There's no connection between Metro apps and normal apps. Bookmarks and passwords on Metro IE are separate from normal IE for example. Metro IE also lacks plugins and flash. No reason to use it over normal IE.
• Native apps have not been updated. You'd expect Windows Media Center and apps like that to get a metro makeover, but they're still no different from Windows 7.
• Boots up quickly and runs applications very fast. This is the strongest point of the OS.
• Very touch friendly, but not good for keyboard/mouse. No multitouch gestures on trackpads
• App store is pretty populated, but Metro apps are just no good with keyboard and mouse.

I'm not a Windows hater, but I honestly can't stand Windows 8. It just feels like a mess. I could never picture any business taking this whole metro thing seriously. I'd give it a 2/10, but just because it's fast.

This.

 

[LachlanH]

Here is one issue I can see with Windows 8 that may or may not become a reality.


Every PC laptop I get handed to look at while at work all work slightly different. Want to switch display modes to connect to a projector? Thats Function+F7.....or F5...........or F6...or Ctrl+Function+F3.........

Want to turn the sound up or down? Brightness? Wireless on/off?

It's different on every laptop depending on what the manufacturer decides on.
You use any Mac and the controls are the same. A White macbook running Lion has the same gestures as a 17" Macbook Pro running Lion, which are also the same as an iMac with a magick trackpad.

My big concern is that Windows 8 will allow for manufactures to each customise their own gestures, meaning NOTHING is standard. 3 finger swipe on an Asus laptop might do something totally different to a Lenovo laptop. It's not so bad if you only ever use the one laptop but as someone who uses all sorts of different brands and models each day it would be a major hassale and completely non user friendly.

Microsoft needs to somehow come up with a set of gestures that they mandate are the same across all machines regardless of model. They may already be doing this, but I can totally see Asus/Acer/HP/Lenovo all writing their own 'custom' drivers with different gestures.


Which is actually my biggest gripe with any non Mac laptop. The crapware each company loads onto their laptop is SO horrible it kills the user experience. Who the HELL wants the first time they bootup their laptop to be full of popups for registering Norton antivirus, accepting the agreement to start using MS Office TRIAL, and all the other crap they have.

Honestly I saw one the other day, you turn it on and the first thing it does is INSTALL the operating system, followed by the drivers. It took 4 reboots and THREE hours for it to complete this setup before the laptop was actually useable. Total garbage IMO.

 

[Krazy Bill]

Microsoft needs to somehow come up with a set of gestures that they mandate are the same across all machines regardless of model

Can't be done. No more than MS deciding what external monitor you attach to that laptop. And you can't expect that either. There are just too many manufacturers that need the ability to tout their machine as better than everyone else's.

You use any Mac and the controls are the same. A White macbook running Lion has the same gestures as a 17" Macbook Pro running Lion, which are also the same as an iMac with a magick trackpad.

Yes, this is one of the finer points of taking the "walled garden" approach by building both the hardware and the OS that runs it. Of course along with that comes the "my way or the high way" mentality.

But I do agree on how important gestures are to the experience. Occasionally I get stuck on a Lenovo at work and have to master physical trackpad buttons all over again.

 

[pdjudd]

Can't be done. No more than MS deciding what external monitor you attach to that laptop. And you can't expect that either. There are just too many manufacturers that need the ability to tout their machine as better than everyone else's.

Well it can be technologcally done - it would just require MS to exert extreme control over their OS (via licensing requirements). Trouble is, the third parties (of course) would never sign on to such an operation. MS would have to do an Apple and make the hardware essentially internal. MS of course would be as successful with that as they were the Zune - they know what happens when you compete with an Apple in a position of power.

As you said - it just aint happening.

 

[Brad9893]

I just tried using Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and yeah its a beta, but WOW, if the final product is anything similar to the preview, that thing is a mess.

They changed everything, but it feels really dumb where things are placed. The cool thing about a mac is that it is intuitive enough that most people can pick it up and know how to work it.

I spent the greater part of 30 minutes trying to figure out how to restart it to go back into OSX.

The solution? You have to click the bottom left hand part of the screen (despite nothing to clue you into that) - then click your name on the top right part of the screen and log yourself out - then you have to click and drag the entire screen up so you can see another set of icons in the bottom right hand corner that includes a shutdown screen.

There may be an easier solution than that - but it really shouldn't be THAT hard to find out.

This is a huge mess.

----------



This.

I found an easier way to restart. In the desktop, hover over one of the right corners to get the charms bar to pop up. Then hit the charm for "Settings". There should be a power button for shutdown/restart at the bottom.

 

[throAU]

I've had a brief play with Windows 8 and my initial thoughts are:

- my end users are going to be totally lost with the new UI
- trying to find settings to change stuff is a total PITA
- the start button menu is finally gone. you can see the beginnings of this back in Vista and 7 with the search box. I never bother using the menu anymore, just type the name of the app...


However, I actually think the new UI may work out. The transition is going to be a massive pain though, and trying to support both this and Windows 7 during a transition phase will be a nightmare. I don't like using it at the moment, but I've only spent about 45 minutes with it so far.

Personally, I find it is interesting that Apple has taken the more conservative approach and kept OS X mostly the same in terms of UI since 2001. Apple is usually the one to break compatibility, instigate major change, and to hell with the old way things are done. Microsoft is usually the ultra-conservative, "backwards compat at any cost!" enterprise friendly vendor. They're taking a massive gamble here, that if they throw that out the Window their customer base will stay.

Home users, given the choice between staying with MS and having to re-learn everything, or going to a Mac, that has nicer hardware and a proven solid OS with extensive online tutorials, documentation, etc that talks to their iDevices way better may well pick the Mac.

Its a massive gamble by MS here, I suspect they're betting the farm on metro, and hoping that Metro on the desktop will accelerate adoption of Windows mobile (and vice versa).

 

[blackhand1001]

Here is one issue I can see with Windows 8 that may or may not become a reality.


Every PC laptop I get handed to look at while at work all work slightly different. Want to switch display modes to connect to a projector? Thats Function+F7.....or F5...........or F6...or Ctrl+Function+F3.........

Want to turn the sound up or down? Brightness? Wireless on/off?

It's different on every laptop depending on what the manufacturer decides on.
You use any Mac and the controls are the same. A White macbook running Lion has the same gestures as a 17" Macbook Pro running Lion, which are also the same as an iMac with a magick trackpad.

My big concern is that Windows 8 will allow for manufactures to each customise their own gestures, meaning NOTHING is standard. 3 finger swipe on an Asus laptop might do something totally different to a Lenovo laptop. It's not so bad if you only ever use the one laptop but as someone who uses all sorts of different brands and models each day it would be a major hassale and completely non user friendly.

Microsoft needs to somehow come up with a set of gestures that they mandate are the same across all machines regardless of model. They may already be doing this, but I can totally see Asus/Acer/HP/Lenovo all writing their own 'custom' drivers with different gestures.


Which is actually my biggest gripe with any non Mac laptop. The crapware each company loads onto their laptop is SO horrible it kills the user experience. Who the HELL wants the first time they bootup their laptop to be full of popups for registering Norton antivirus, accepting the agreement to start using MS Office TRIAL, and all the other crap they have.

Honestly I saw one the other day, you turn it on and the first thing it does is INSTALL the operating system, followed by the drivers. It took 4 reboots and THREE hours for it to complete this setup before the laptop was actually useable. Total garbage IMO.

For future reference, on all vista, 7, and 8 machines, windows key + P will switch between projector modes. It gives you a nice alt tab like selector as well.

 

[Guru53]

I dual boot Windows 7 Ultimate and OS X Lion on my MacBook Pro and after seeing what Microsoft has done with Windows 8, I highly doubt I will be upgrading unless they make some serious changes. All I really want are some new features (built in ISO support sounded great) and further optimization and I would have been sold.

 

[Liquinn]

Something Microsoft cannot match is the compatibility of iDevices.

 

[maflynn]

Something Microsoft cannot match is the compatibility of iDevices.

Conversely Apple cannot match Microsoft's compatibility with a large and varied list of hardware. I don't want to sound trollish, but Apple's strength in its ecosystems is great but MS has advantages as well.

 

[Liquinn]

Conversely Apple cannot match Microsoft's compatibility with a large and varied list of hardware. I don't want to sound trollish, but Apple's strength in its ecosystems is great but MS has advantages as well.

MS may have a few advantages. I saw a very very good spec PC laptop for 800 UK pounds. But it's not the MBP I want. Spec isn't everything. My Mac Mini feels faster than any PC of mine feels like.

I'm not going to bother installing Windows 8 on top of Windows 7 on my other PC laptop. I may however just VMWare it on my Mac if it's worth the hassle.

 

[maflynn]

I'm not going to bother installing Windows 8 on top of Windows 7 on my other PC laptop. I may however just VMWare it on my Mac if it's worth the hassle.

I have win8 as a VM and so far I have to say I hate the UI. I think Ms is making a huge mistake by trying to shoe horn a phone/tablet UI into the desktop.

As for PC performance, I built my own PC and its fast, so not all PC hardware is bad

 

[deconstruct60]

@deconstruct60:
Windows 8 is basically a superset of Windows 7. Of course you can just continue using your old programs (except for the Metro launcher which you are forced to use).

The launcher is a pragmatically a menu context ( just a larger canvas than the older start menu consumed). It is gone when you are done with it. As a percentage of time on screen in comparison to your workflow apps it is going to be very small. I suspect some people will spend more time complaining about it than it actually spends on the screen.

...Of course, Windows 7 would work just as well.

That's doubtful because there are very substantive feature once get beyond focusing on Metro.

If you don't use Windows 8 like it's intended to be used, it works great.

There is a difference between how the defaults are set out of the box for the generic population and what it is the intended use. All the indications are is that Windows 8 is intended to be customized to be the right tool for the right job.

Making the Metro apps the defaults fits for two reasons. One, the majority of the PCs this will be sold on have the smaller screens and will be mobile. Second, if Microsoft hides the new features, no one will use them.

It is highly likely that individual system vendors may tweak the default image. ( they certainly tend to install their own set of apps for current WinPCs. Customizing the start screen and some defaults toward their "value add" apps is just as likely. )

Yes. I'm sure Apple is terrified of their Mac products being cannibalized by the iPad, eh, I mean tablet market.

Chuckle. If Microsoft gets the pricing of Windows-on-Arm right the days of iPad being equivalent to the tablet market will be over in a year or so. They may shoot themselves in the head being greedy, but I suspect being in 3rd place brings some clarity. It has been surprising Google has bungled Android on non-phones as much as they have.

Just like the iPhone, the iPad is on track to drift to being just a participant in the market. Once the products eating Mac share are not Apple products... yeah Apple will get nervous. They would be foolishly arrogant to not see the simple path to where that happens if they put OS X into non-innovative mode for a year or so.

 

[deconstruct60]

...
I like Metro, but my biggest gripe is the way it works on a 2560x1440 screen.
In the Start screen, the tiles are lost as there is so much screen real estate, and in the full screen Metro apps, text is too large, and again, there is way too much wasted space.

Some of the tiles can be set to "larger" versions. It may take till "version 2.0" but I suspect they just need more than just two tile sizes 'smaller' and 'larger'. For instance, the classic app tiles tend to default to the smaller square. For those primarily working with those apps the larger rectangle would make that group consume more space (and it gives the user a larger target to hit which is a usability upside). An example from the server start screen:

http://arstechnica.com/business/new...-quick-start-to-domain-domination.ars?src=fbk

A bunch of those have "...." in their presentation because the name doesn't fit. If using a large screen there is no reason not to list the full name with a larger tile.

Single square, larger (two side-by-side squares) , and perhaps a new one largest ( a 4 square ). The last could contain a couple of pieces of "live" info if implemented as a live square. (e.g,. on a server a mini summary of uptime, workload, status)

I can see how the whole would work really well on smaller screens, but on large ones, not so good.

It is Microsoft. I takes until version 3.0 till they have all the kinks worked out.

 

[deconstruct60]

Home users, given the choice between staying with MS and having to re-learn everything, or going to a Mac, that has nicer hardware and a proven solid OS with extensive online tutorials, documentation, etc that talks to their iDevices way better may well pick the Mac.

Doubtful. One of the primary factors driving choice is cost. As long as Apple stick with the $999 and up (with the mini being the outlier), a large fraction of folks will take the Windows box because it is more affordable.

Apple may take slight more of the $999 and up share but over time that share is going to retract. Apple is growing by taking share away from other over $999 vendors, not by growing the overall market.

 

[MRU]

I really like windows 7, windows 8 leaves me a little confused. Whilst I see it's potential on a tablet or touch screen device, on standard laptop and desktop I just don't think it gels at the moment.

I've tried developers preview and now the widows 8 consumer preview and server preview but I find what would take a few seconds previously is now taking longer to perform, and surely the purpose of the GUI is to simplify a process, not over complicate it - albeit masqueraded in superficially easier to use tile interface.

At the moment its a rather twisted hybrid not really accomplashing the task for tablets or standard computers. As a tablet OS it feels jaring to me when you are suddenly landed on semi traditional desktop with figgly windows.

Straying from the Metro UI feels wrong when using your hands, and vice versa to me the desktop experience should be more akin to standard windows 7, with the metro UI shell it just doesnt feel right with a mouse and keyboard.


At moment it feels like its attempting to be the OS equivilent of Jack of all trades and yet master of none.

Though things could change, as it currently stands I prefer the way Lion integrate some features of iOS but makes them entirely optional. Mountain Lions way of dealing with Reminder, Notes and Calendar are much improved and suit regular desktop / laptop usage. Launchpad still feels unnecessary on a computer.

 

[tkermit]

Making the Metro apps the defaults fits for two reasons. One, the majority of the PCs this will be sold on have the smaller screens and will be mobile. Second, if Microsoft hides the new features, no one will use them.

That's exactly right. They are forcing Metro onto Desktop users because MS have their sights firmly on the tablet market and don't actually expect Metro to appeal to Desktop users enough for them to naturally start using it, but still need them on board so that developers see a need to provide Metro apps. If Metro was only offered on tablets, MS wouldn't be able to boast about the huge market opportunity there is for developers.

 

[jman240]

If Microsoft had done something like this http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/25/2824064/incredible-mockup-of-windows-desktop-gone-metro I would have jumped for joy.

What they did with Win8 is inexcusably bad. For a company with that many resources who thought this was a good idea. They don't understand simple. They think removing all the UI elements = Simple but what you get is a confusing and hard to use mess. There is a reason that Safari on the iPad doesn't hide any of the UI. There are hidden elements sure but its not running full screen without any UI. One cool thing I discovered the other day was holding down the + showed a list of recently closed tabs.

Anyway, Microsoft is going to learn a hard lesson this year I think.

 

[afin]

If Microsoft had done something like this http://www.theverge.com/2012/2/25/2824064/incredible-mockup-of-windows-desktop-gone-metro I would have jumped for joy.

What they did with Win8 is inexcusably bad. For a company with that many resources who thought this was a good idea. They don't understand simple. They think removing all the UI elements = Simple but what you get is a confusing and hard to use mess. There is a reason that Safari on the iPad doesn't hide any of the UI. There are hidden elements sure but its not running full screen without any UI. One cool thing I discovered the other day was holding down the + showed a list of recently closed tabs.

Anyway, Microsoft is going to learn a hard lesson this year I think.

I think how hard of a lesson depends on the price point as well as the type of consumer they will be targeting with this release. Though who am I kidding, it will likely be $100+.

All jesting aside, I would be all over that mockup.

 

[irnchriz]

It looks like Microsoft have built windows 8 for tablets and touch and totally forgotten that it will also run on desktops. The mouse and keyboard controls are awful.

 

[jman240]

I think how hard of a lesson depends on the price point as well as the type of consumer they will be targeting with this release. Though who am I kidding, it will likely be $100+.

All jesting aside, I would be all over that mockup.

Someone found references to 9 SKUs in the Consumer Preview. 9 Versions of Windows 8.

I'm really wondering now that Apple is on a yearly development cycle for their OS's how long it will be between Win8 and Win9. If there's another 3+ year gap before Microsoft can iterate it may be waaaaaay too slow for the whole tablet OS sphere.

 

[afin]

Someone found references to 9 SKUs in the Consumer Preview. 9 Versions of Windows 8.

I'm really wondering now that Apple is on a yearly development cycle for their OS's how long it will be between Win8 and Win9. If there's another 3+ year gap before Microsoft can iterate it may be waaaaaay too slow for the whole tablet OS sphere.

That's an interesting point. Microsoft seems to be breaking a few "traditions" with this operating system, so maybe that means they are already changing to accommodate the consumer/tablet based market in that regard?

However, that doesn't seem to fit their enterprise business model at all. Businesses wait years and years to upgrade.

 

[Cougarcat]

Anyone know if there's a third party utility to add gesture support to an apple trackpad or Magic Trackpad? Might make Metro more usable.

 

[markrox7]

I tried the Windows 8 consumer preview and I liked it. I found the occasional big but that didn't bother me. The thing I hated most is how it's here's towards tablets/touch and virtually unusable on a computer with a keyboard. If I had windows 8 on a tablet I would have enjoyed it much more.

 

[LachlanH]

For future reference, on all vista, 7, and 8 machines, windows key + P will switch between projector modes. It gives you a nice alt tab like selector as well.

Odd, I was not aware of this at all. Thanks for the heads up.