iPad Mouse Support - The Missing Elephant

[Cashmonee]

Perhaps it is that simple. As I said, there are two immediate obstacles besides coding in support. One is other devs using the mouse that is not uniform with the rest of the OS. Two, customer confusion with when and how the mouse works. Those two alone make adding mouse support more than trivial. To add on to the nontrivial nature, I highly doubt it would a simple flip of a switch. As I said before, for a feature like this to work, you really have to think about how it can and will be used by everyone involved. Features for features sake usually end in bad end user experiences.

I find it unlikely that Apple would not have added mouse support at this point if it were a trivial thing and there was huge consumer demand for it. They are in the business of making money. The reason it isn't there is because there is little demand, and in Apple's judgement the user experience is compromised.

 

[danny842003]

But adding mouse support is not complex at all, and should be rather trivial to add (it's already in jailbroken iOS). I don't want them to tack on feature after feature. But if there were a few features that would substantially increase the usability for some users, than I'm all for it.

Adding it to the OS isnt complex your right but that's not the issue.
The issue Apple have is they don't want a compromised platform for the basic user.
If company's develop apps with a mouse in mind they will become less useful for touch.
It's really not as trivial as people believe it is.

 

[Act3]

Adding it to the OS isnt complex your right but that's not the issue.
The issue Apple have is they don't want a compromised platform for the basic user.
If company's develop apps with a mouse in mind they will become less useful for touch.
It's really not as trivial as people believe it is.

It's already compromised. Some apps still aren't optimized for the 12.9 iPad resolution. I call BS about being less useful for touch.

 

[sracer]

Adding it to the OS isnt complex your right but that's not the issue.
The issue Apple have is they don't want a compromised platform for the basic user.

Do you have a statement from Apple itself about that?

If company's develop apps with a mouse in mind they will become less useful for touch.
It's really not as trivial as people believe it is.

Android has had mouse support for years. Those developers haven't developed apps "with a mouse in mind". What makes iOS developers different than those who develop for Android?

 

[Cashmonee]

Android has had mouse support for years. Those developers haven't developed apps "with a mouse in mind". What makes iOS developers different than those who develop for Android?

I think as illustrated earlier, it doesn't appear there is official support for a mouse, but 3rd party implementations from what I could find. No developer in their right mind would develop for that. I would be willing to bet that if you added mouse support, there would be many apps that would be developed with that in mind. In some cases, such as Photoshop or Lightroom, that may be a good thing. Certainly not a precedent Apple would want to set though.

 

[sparksd]

I think as illustrated earlier, it doesn't appear there is official support for a mouse, but 3rd party implementations from what I could find. No developer in their right mind would develop for that. I would be willing to bet that if you added mouse support, there would be many apps that would be developed with that in mind. In some cases, such as Photoshop or Lightroom, that may be a good thing. Certainly not a precedent Apple would want to set though.

It is supported by Android OS, not a third party implementation. I've used it across multiple Android platforms and multiple versions of the OS. Some platforms don't provide h/w support for OTG but Bluetooth works.

 

[off_piste]

I think as illustrated earlier, it doesn't appear there is official support for a mouse, but 3rd party implementations from what I could find. No developer in their right mind would develop for that. I would be willing to bet that if you added mouse support, there would be many apps that would be developed with that in mind. In some cases, such as Photoshop or Lightroom, that may be a good thing. Certainly not a precedent Apple would want to set though.

Apple already has a solution in place for this: directives to developers making it mandatory to support Apple's preferred input method with optional additional support. They did this with the Apple TV 4.

 

[danny842003]

Do you have a statement from Apple itself about that?


Android has had mouse support for years. Those developers haven't developed apps "with a mouse in mind". What makes iOS developers different than those who develop for Android?

Yes but Tim Cook is my bestie and I can't break his confidence.
I will be honest I know the square root of nothing about Android. Do developers develop pro apps for android? I know the new photo editing app at the last keynote isn't being ported to android.
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Apple already has a solution in place for this: directives to developers making it mandatory to support Apple's preferred input method with optional additional support. They did this with the Apple TV 4.

Support doesn't mean it's optimised for primary input method.

 

[Cashmonee]

It is supported by Android OS, not a third party implementation. I've used it across multiple Android platforms and multiple versions of the OS. Some platforms don't provide h/w support for OTG but Bluetooth works.

I believe you, I just don't think it is as great as you say. Here is one of the few articles I could find about native support for mouse and keyboard on Android. For context it was an article detailing the author's opinions on how Android tablets could survive.

Design with keyboard and mouse in mind
Productivity devices won’t really be productive until you can use then with a keyboard and a mouse. Android is sadly a bit schizophrenic on this point, especially with mice. While the platform fortunately has support for those, unlike iOS, it is half-baked and, at times, even counter-productive.

Text selection, right-clicking, middle-clicking, these common computing gestures can be a huge pain on Android. Keyboards are less of an issue, but some apps and interfaces, like web browsers and e-mail clients, can do with support for keyboard shortcuts. This is an area where both third-party app developers as well as platform makers like Google should pitch in.

Link if you want to see the whole article: https://www.slashgear.com/heres-how-android-tablets-can-survive-2017-and-beyond-29469137/

Again, I am sure Apple could add it. I just don't believe it would be easy to make it a good user experience, and I am not in support of features for <5% of users that have the potential to make the experience worse for the other 95%.
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Apple already has a solution in place for this: directives to developers making it mandatory to support Apple's preferred input method with optional additional support. They did this with the Apple TV 4.

That doesn't keep a developer from making it mouse input first and touch second. The solution would then be to make a developer put touch first, but then what is the point of mouse support? Not to mention one more thing for the App Store people to police.

 

[off_piste]

I believe you, I just don't think it is as great as you say. Here is one of the few articles I could find about native support for mouse and keyboard on Android. For context it was an article detailing the author's opinions on how Android tablets could survive.



Link if you want to see the whole article: https://www.slashgear.com/heres-how-android-tablets-can-survive-2017-and-beyond-29469137/

Again, I am sure Apple could add it. I just don't believe it would be easy to make it a good user experience, and I am not in support of features for <5% of users that have the potential to make the experience worse for the other 95%.
[doublepost=1499819753][/doublepost]


That doesn't keep a developer from making it mouse input first and touch second. The solution would then be to make a developer put touch first, but then what is the point of mouse support? Not to mention one more thing for the App Store people to police.

You have no basis for your argument. What you cite isn't that the touch experience is impaired by mouse support but that the mouse support isn't fully optimized. Your posts boil down to simply being afraid of the unknown.

 

[Cashmonee]

You have no basis for your argument. What you cite isn't that the touch experience is impaired by mouse support but that the mouse support isn't fully optimized. Your posts boil down to simply being afraid of the unknown.

I was writing that in response to a few posters that were claiming mouse support was as easy as flipping a switch and that Android has it and it is wonderful. Just providing a counter point to the "Android has mouse support so Apple should, and it will be easy" argument. It seems to be an ill-supported feature on Android that very few people are even interested in.

My argument against mouse support in iOS is based on not diminishing what makes iOS great, namely that it isn't a desktop OS. I don't believe you will see Apple add mouse support to iOS anytime soon, and if it were my choice, I would rather see them add touch and Pencil support to macOS than more desktop features to iOS.

 

[off_piste]

I was writing that in response to a few posters that were claiming mouse support was as easy as flipping a switch and that Android has it and it is wonderful. Just providing a counter point to the "Android has mouse support so Apple should, and it will be easy" argument. It seems to be an ill-supported feature on Android that very few people are even interested in.

My argument against mouse support in iOS is based on not diminishing what makes iOS great, namely that it isn't a desktop OS. I don't believe you will see Apple add mouse support to iOS anytime soon, and if it were my choice, I would rather see them add touch and Pencil support to macOS than more desktop features to iOS.

I think you're going to be disappointed in a year or two. Apple is thinking about trackpad support which is mouse support.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/23/15034344/apple-iphone-ipad-laptop-dock-patent

 

[Cashmonee]

I think you're going to be disappointed in a year or two. Apple is thinking about trackpad support which is mouse support.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/23/15034344/apple-iphone-ipad-laptop-dock-patent

As your article states, Apple, like most companies these days, patents every idea they come up with. 90% of those patents are probably never actually used, and almost none of those patents are used in ways that people thought they would be when first filed. And for a company that hasn't made a docking station even though people have been "begging" for it for years, neither of these seem like something that would ever actually see the light of day. Certainly not in that form. But that is just my guess, who really knows?

Apple’s patent was first filed in September, but like many patents it doesn’t mean Apple will ever bring this type of product to the market.

You may be right. They may add mouse support. If they do, I may really enjoy it, or you may really hate it. One thing I have learned after years of following Apple, you never know what they are going to do next and what their spin on it will be.

 

[danny842003]

You have no basis for your argument. What you cite isn't that the touch experience is impaired by mouse support but that the mouse support isn't fully optimized. Your posts boil down to simply being afraid of the unknown.

But you have no basis to counter it. Opinions are like arseholes everyone has one.

 

[richpjr]

I was writing that in response to a few posters that were claiming mouse support was as easy as flipping a switch and that Android has it and it is wonderful. Just providing a counter point to the "Android has mouse support so Apple should, and it will be easy" argument. It seems to be an ill-supported feature on Android that very few people are even interested in.

My argument against mouse support in iOS is based on not diminishing what makes iOS great, namely that it isn't a desktop OS. I don't believe you will see Apple add mouse support to iOS anytime soon, and if it were my choice, I would rather see them add touch and Pencil support to macOS than more desktop features to iOS.

The counter argument to this is why did Apple release the ASK? If anything makes an iPad more like a MPB it's that. Why stop there?

 

[Cashmonee]

The counter argument to this is why did Apple release the ASK? If anything makes an iPad more like a MPB it's that. Why stop there?

It doesn't fundamentally change the way you interact with the OS. The keyboard is replacing an identical piece in the OS. Multitouch is not a direct parallel to a mouse. Now a trackpad could be. You could probably do an almost one-to-one replacement with a Magic Trackpad, but a two button mouse with a scroll wheel wouldn't be a one-to-one replacement the way the keyboard was. With a keyboard, there is no "How do we replicate this action?" One example is bringing up the dock in iOS 11.

 

[off_piste]

As your article states, Apple, like most companies these days, patents every idea they come up with. 90% of those patents are probably never actually used, and almost none of those patents are used in ways that people thought they would be when first filed. And for a company that hasn't made a docking station even though people have been "begging" for it for years, neither of these seem like something that would ever actually see the light of day. Certainly not in that form. But that is just my guess, who really knows?



You may be right. They may add mouse support. If they do, I may really enjoy it, or you may really hate it. One thing I have learned after years of following Apple, you never know what they are going to do next and what their spin on it will be.

It probably won't manifest in that iteration but it shows Apple is thinking about applications like that which, while not strictly mouse support, are effectively the same. That's my only point. That and the fact Apple has backtracked on things or added features years after its competitors.

 

[off_piste]

But you have no basis to counter it. Opinions are like arseholes everyone has one.

I do. We have a concrete example of a touch-based operating system that offers mouse support and doesn't affect the touch experience. Present some evidence that there is a concern other than ginned up fears and I'd consider the concerns more credible.

 

[richpjr]

It doesn't fundamentally change the way you interact with the OS. The keyboard is replacing an identical piece in the OS. Multitouch is not a direct parallel to a mouse. Now a trackpad could be. You could probably do an almost one-to-one replacement with a Magic Trackpad, but a two button mouse with a scroll wheel wouldn't be a one-to-one replacement the way the keyboard was. With a keyboard, there is no "How do we replicate this action?" One example is bringing up the dock in iOS 11.

I honestly wouldn't care if it was a mouse, a trackpad or something else - I'd just love an easier way to interact with the screen when it's on the ASK. Wasn't this same scenario one of the reasons why we don't have touchscreen Macs?

 

[danny842003]

I do. We have a concrete example of a touch-based operating system that offers mouse support and doesn't affect the touch experience. Present some evidence that there is a concern other than ginned up fears and is consider the concerns more credible.

And I asked do pro apps really go to android? I have barely used the system but my understanding is its not got a great selection of pro apps as it userbase are adverse to paying for apps.

 

[clubtech]

And I asked do pro apps really go to android? I have barely used the system but my understanding is its not got a great selection of pro apps as it userbase are adverse to paying for apps.

At the current state i am able to do a lot more work on my Chromebook with Android apps than I can do on my iPad pro...so yes there are plenty of apps that work great for productivity on the other side. With the introduction of nougat on Chromebooks, most apps can also be in resizable windows supporting both touch and keybaord + trackpad / mouse. It all works very well. Don't get me wrong, I really love my iPad pro but I just can't seem to be very productive on it with all its current limitations. Great hardwrae crippled by software. It's still mainly a consuption device for me without some sort of pointing device that is not a pencil...

 

[danny842003]

At the current state i am able to do a lot more work on my Chromebook with Android apps than I can do on my iPad pro...so yes there are plenty of apps that work great for productivity on the other side. With the introduction of nougat on Chromebooks, most apps can also be in resizable windows supporting both touch and keybaord + trackpad / mouse. It all works very well. Don't get me wrong, I really love my iPad pro but I just can't seem to be very productive on it with all its current limitations. Great hardwrae crippled by software. It's still mainly a consuption device for me without some sort of pointing device that is not a pencil...

But a Chromebook isn't a tablet is it? Or have they changed since the last time I saw them?

 

[clubtech]

But a Chromebook isn't a tablet is it? Or have they changed since the last time I saw them?

My Samsung Chromebook Pro is a 2 in 1 device, you flip the screen and it's sort of a tablet. The detachable chromebooks are coming though, so those would be more comparable to real tablets. While the hardware of any Chromebook can't touch the quality of Apple, I'm so far impressed with the software. For someone like me, who does normal, none art, office work - the CB works better for now. I can use it in tablet mode when just surfing the web or can use a real keyboard and trackpad when I need to be more productive.
I'm a big apple fan so I hope they do add some solution to the issue being discussed here.

 

[kasakka]

Perhaps it is that simple. As I said, there are two immediate obstacles besides coding in support. One is other devs using the mouse that is not uniform with the rest of the OS. Two, customer confusion with when and how the mouse works. Those two alone make adding mouse support more than trivial. To add on to the nontrivial nature, I highly doubt it would a simple flip of a switch. As I said before, for a feature like this to work, you really have to think about how it can and will be used by everyone involved. Features for features sake usually end in bad end user experiences.

I find it unlikely that Apple would not have added mouse support at this point if it were a trivial thing and there was huge consumer demand for it. They are in the business of making money. The reason it isn't there is because there is little demand, and in Apple's judgement the user experience is compromised.

They don't have to do anything more than show a cursor on screen that reacts to mouse movements and buttons. Apps are still designed for touch, all a mouse cursor would be is essentially a really tiny finger. With the whole OS being based on touch, it is unlikely devs would make apps that basically require a mouse to use. Mouse simply needs to work anywhere and react to something simple like left button being single click and right button maybe a two finger click or something. Gets even easier on the Apple trackpad which is essentially a touch surface without a screen but moving a cursor around instead of poking what you see.

Apple often takes years to add features that seem obvious to have. Things like multitasking, file browsers and many small tweaks that are now stock features in iOS were initially found in Jailbroken iOS hacks. While Apple has implemented many of them better (due to not having to hack them in), they still tend to not include obvious features just because.

 

[rowspaxe]

Wasn't this same scenario one of the reasons why we don't have touchscreen Macs?

ka-BOOM! QEDB.