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eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68030
Feb 25, 2011
2,537
3,086
Yes Apple margin level is absolutely outrageous but keep in mind that Zenbook 14 is a consumer laptop with way lower lifespan standards and definitely can't be compared with a MacBook Pro.

In the Windows world you would need to compare it with professional laptops such as X1 Carbon, Elitebooks, Zbooks, etc. Those are designed to be used countless working hours per week for at least 5 - 7 years, just like the MacBook Pro. And you will see that their prices will be way above 2K$ for 2TB SSD / 32GB Ram. Design engineering is key to explain laptop prices, not just the internal components.

Don't get me wrong I'm not defending Apple stupid prices, I'm just explaining the consumer / pro laptops pricing difference. I ditched my MacBook few years ago for a Thinkpad then for an Elitebook and never looked back. Only iOS keeps me connected to Apple ecosystem.
Yeah I just priced this and you are right! This is a little nuts in the ultralight category on the Windows side too. Gaming laptops the difference is much cheaper skewing windows, but yeah, the battery life in those is like 3-5 hours (ask me how I know LOL).

At least when Snapdragon X Elite comes out, some of these may be worth these inflated prices...and as we know Mac already has that level of performance and battery life.
 

Cape Dave

macrumors 68020
Nov 16, 2012
2,380
1,674
Northeast
All of it is gouging guys

The "pro" laptops aren't using some magical higher tier of components, on Win or Mac

It's ridiculous

At least on most Windows options one can at least upgrade the NVMe themselves if nothing else
Yes. However, to my knowledge, sometimes "premium" laptops are built with stronger more robust materials. Which does help.
 
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turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,254
39,750
Are we sure that "premium" laptops are built with stronger more robust materials?


AFpya.gif
 
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Kerry91

macrumors newbie
Nov 29, 2020
9
12
All of it is gouging guys

The "pro" laptops aren't using some magical higher tier of components, on Win or Mac

It's ridiculous

At least on most Windows options one can at least upgrade the NVMe themselves if nothing else

Are we sure that "premium" laptops are built with stronger more robust materials?


AFpya.gif


Once again there are many reasons that explain the price difference between business and consumers laptops.

Components : Pro laptops aren't using any "magical higher tier of components", but they tend to use higher performing parts such as RAM, SSD and Wi-Fi card. Those better frequencies have a clear impact on transfers speed and that counts a lot for real heavy workload.

All of this has a cost.

Regarding the CPU the regular "U" ones are often the same between pro and consumers computers but there are sometimes "Pro" versions that add some extra features for MDM (ex: AMD Ryzen PRO line).

However the "H" and "P" CPUs are either found on high end gaming laptops or on professional ones for obvious reasons.

On the other hand, I wouldn't say that consumers laptops' parts are all cheap but they're definitely entry-level for the most part. Their lifespan won't be fantastic and the memory frequencies won't be that high.

As the frequencies will be lower, a 16GB RAM / 1TB SSD consumer laptop won't necessarily perform the same than a similar business configuration with a similar CPU but with higher quality memory. Of course the difference won't be huge for a short period of time, but it will get significant over time for some frequent and repetitive heavy tasks. And that point alone matters A LOT to businesses.


Design / Lifespan : Most of consumers laptops are made of cheap plastic for obvious cost reasons and won't resist that much to some accidental drops.

On the other hand pro laptops are often built with high quality plastic, carbon fiber or aluminum that make the machine way more resistant to scratches, drops and even some of them are spill resistant. So you can afford to accidentally spill your coffee on it, or get it briefly wet by rain.

There is a reason why there are only ThinkPad in the ISS, there is a reason why you will only see rugged and regular business laptops used by soldiers in war zones, there is a reason why you won't see any ZenBook 14 OLED in this kind of place...

Businesses, governments and armies who spend millions of dollars to renew their laptops every 5 years need to ensure that their employees, officials and soldiers won't break them in a matter of months or years while working or travelling. If consumers laptops were as good then you could definitely count on those organizations for choosing the cheapest option.

My job leads me to work with IT engineers and purchasing managers on daily basis, and although they are known to be fierce cost killers, IT buyers never hesitate to buy expensive laptops for the workforce because they absolutely need to meet strict business standards that consumers laptops simply can't offer. So yes IT professionals understand that those prices are totally justified.


Cooling system / design : The cooling system on pro laptops is often more efficient and their internal design / spacing between the different parts is made in a way to keep the laptop as cool as possible, even on very thin ones.

Consumers laptops cooling system and design are made as simple as possible to reduce costs, but this has consequences since they will often be noisier because of the fan constantly spinning during medium / heavy tasks compared to pro laptops that will often be quieter thanks to better thermals.

Better thermals = less heat = better CPU performances = better heavy workload handling = better work productivity.
No need to explain more.


Design / Upgradability : Most of consumers laptops have soldered RAM and sometimes even SSD. And opening them to change basics things like the battery is often not easy. I wouldn't say complicated, but they're clearly not designed to be easily opened and repaired.

Not all business laptops are super upgradable because some manufacturers followed Apple stupid design choices by soldering the RAM as well, but there are plenty of them that still offer very nice options to be repaired or upgraded.

That gives businesses the confidence that their investment will remain functional during the planned period of time before the next renewal.

If I take a professional example like HP EliteBook line, you can easily upgrade / replace on it the :
- SSD
- Memory modules
- Wireless cards
- Battery
- Fan
- Heat sink
- Keyboard
- Trackpad
- Screen
- Bezel
- Speakers
- USB boards
- RFID module
- Power button
- RJ45 bracket
- System board
- Fingerprint reader
- Hinge cover
- Webcam

I think you got it, you basically can change almost every part of the laptop to keep using it as long as possible.

Can you do ALL this on a consumer laptop ? Hell no. When a hardware issue occurs on a consumer laptop then you're generally good for buying a new unit.

All of this is the consequence of the design and the manufacturing choices. Soldered parts on the motherboard make consumer laptops cheaper as factory robots deal with the manufacturing process.

On the other hand, upgradable parts require human workers to intervene for connecting some of them to the motherboard during the manufacturing process. And of course this makes the process longer and more expensive.

More human interventions = Higher manufacturing costs
Longer manufacturing process = Higher manufacturing costs
Higher manufacturing costs = More expensive laptop

This is pure common sense.


Security : Short point but business laptops are by design more secured as they usually offer more security options in BIOS to meet higher security standards for businesses. Some of them can also read smart cards for employees security accesses.

None of this can be found on a consumer laptop.


Keyboard / Trackpad : Last point, keyboards on business laptops are made to be comfortably used for years without failing. The membrane quality is better, the feeling is better with nice tactile response and some of them are spill resistant.

Consumers laptops often propose cheap plastic keyboard with cheap feeling, low to medium comfort and not great key travel. They're made for casual / medium use and this is fair as it's part of the value proposition.

But this is a no go for businesses. When your employees spend their working days on typing emails then you absolutely need them to do it comfortably so they can remain productive all day and avoid any fingers tendonitis.
Same for the expensive ergonomic office chairs, companies would buy cheap wooden chairs for their employees instead if the comfort was identical.
The same logic applies to business laptops. Companies don't buy expensive material because they want to but because they have to.

Try writing emails 8 hours a day, 250 working days a year on a ThinkPad keyboard and then try the same on a ZenBook 14. If you'll say that it's not very different, your sore fingers will tell the opposite...

Same for the trackpad, 90% of consumers laptops come with plastic trackpads with cheap feeling and meh accuracy, if not terrible for the cheaper ones.
Whereas most of high end business laptops have glass trackpads with way smoother feeling and higher accuracy. Not at MacBook touchpad level for the windows options, but close enough.

That makes the whole difference when you need to work on the go without a mouse.

And yes all of this has a cost as well.


Anyway, every single reason that I've mentioned comes with a cost and this obviously make those business options way more expensive. Not even to mention that R&D for business laptops costs more as manufacturers always need to propose appealing design AND good thermals / performances / upgradability.

Of course the price difference between pro and consumers lines shouldn't be that high, but this is the way this world works. Large companies can negotiate good prices for renewing their business laptops, but individuals who will want to buy a unit will have to pay the full price.

Same goes for Apple and their Mac line, because just like windows high-end business laptops, Apple always manufactures their MacBooks to meet strict business standards (despite some industrial crashes such as the butterfly keyboard and the faulty screen coating). However they've pushed the pricing to a ridiculous level.


Another example that I can think of is college that is known for being a tough environment for laptops, with students always carrying them from location to location without being very careful.

According to my past experience when I was still student, 95% of my classmates who started college with a MacBook or a business laptop ended college 5 years later with the very same computer.

Whereas maybe half of my classmates who started with a regular consumer laptop ended up replacing it in the meantime because they encountered hardware issues (broken screen, device not turning on anymore, faulty memory, faulty keyboard, etc.). Some of them who didn't use cloud backups even lost their college notes and got in huge despair because of this.
I don't criticize them of course, not everyone can afford buying a high end laptop especially when you're student. But those are the risks everybody should know.


So yeah... products ranges exist for a reason and one shouldn't compare the figures only.

My two cents.
 
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Jonathan.T.Harpur

macrumors member
Original poster
Mar 9, 2022
67
47
SionMills Northern Ireland
well be back on windows now for a few months and i must say windows 11 feels like they are trying copy mac / linux with doc in the middle and phone sync.

well in my eyes most of it hasn't changed now one thing i will say i don't like it auto downloads apps from the Microsoft store with out asking eg hp printer app witch i didn't want it

im runing a 2023 dell xps 15 full spec { i9 13th gen 32 ram ( upgraded to 64 the crucle ram) nividea 4070 and 2tb ssd and a custom with same spec expect I put a nividea 4090 ad gpu :)
 

penlost

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2010
78
24
Suffolk, United Kingdom
well be back on windows now for a few months and i must say windows 11 feels like they are trying copy mac / linux with doc in the middle and phone sync.

well in my eyes most of it hasn't changed now one thing i will say i don't like it auto downloads apps from the Microsoft store with out asking eg hp printer app witch i didn't want it

im runing a 2023 dell xps 15 full spec { i9 13th gen 32 ram ( upgraded to 64 the crucle ram) nividea 4070 and 2tb ssd and a custom with same spec expect I put a nividea 4090 ad gpu :)
I am considering the same, xps 2023 15inch with Oled screen, but an i7. Can you tell me how you are getting on with it? I am weighing up this and the Macbook M3 Pro 14, one of them is going back. I am veering towards the xps at the moment!
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,405
2,638
OBX
The easiest way is to download the windows 10 installation media, install it on a thumb drive, boot into it and follow the steps
Yeah the only downside is you leave performance on the table because as far as I know MS used 12/13/14 gen Intel changes as a way to get folk to move to Win11 so the scheduler doesn't know about Intels P/E core differences.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Yeah the only downside is you leave performance on the table
I'm not advocating the move, and I think there are a number of downsides. For instance, Windows 10's support is ending in about a year and a half - I think that's the biggest downside.

Overall, I think its in most people's best interest to be on the current OS, whether we're talking about Apple, Canonical (Ubuntu), or MS.
 

Jonathan.T.Harpur

macrumors member
Original poster
Mar 9, 2022
67
47
SionMills Northern Ireland
@maflynn

i agree with what ur saying but as someone who sell and builds computers i have found that a lot of my customers were put off windows 11 mainly Bacases, they had to make a Microsoft account to use it and were not offer a locale account

To be onset when I first saw it and still feel the same today it feels in complete and rushed i have had a lot of my customers complain why can't the machines i built for them in 2009 can't run windows 11 once i expand them that in fairness that a lot has changed in tech since 2009 and two get to os life spans out of one machine is piety good plush before i upgraded the machines to windows 10 in 2015 i had put SSDs in and removed there old hard drives and they saw a big differs in speed of use s

I sayed if they want to get the value for money out of a new Machine with the newer hardware and softwear they would have to get new machine with 11 on them but after i left test machines with them they decided to pay Microsoft to get the extra 3 years so hop fully by then windows 11 will be more complete or windows 12 might be out by then :)
 
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avro707

macrumors 68020
Dec 13, 2010
2,247
1,628
I would like to her what other people opinions are that have been in my predicament:)

Well I'm fortunate I can use MacOS and Windows on the one machine (both natively) so I don't have to throw out MacOS and Apple completely.

I wouldn't buy a windows based laptop. For my needs a M2 15" Macbook Air 16GB 1TB does the job of mobile computing. For desktops I have a maximum spec 6,1 Mac Pro and almost the maximum spec 7,1 (only storage and RAM not maximum) so I don't have any need to move.

The 7,1 runs Windows 11 Pro for Workstations beautifully, very fast and never any crashes. It would be hard to find a PC as well made, they are around but they cost similar vast amounts of money.
 
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MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2016
1,147
674
Malaga, Spain
Did you run into any hardware compatibility issues?
There is if you run anything Alder Lake from Intel onwards. I have tested this across a couple of machines.

Personally I use Linux (Arch) and I'm on the latest rolling release because Intel is feeding a lot into the upstream to this day related to scheduler for the hybrid arch
 
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