Mozilla is done with Snow Leopard

[eyoungren]

Although I know this is kind of unrelated, I dont mind upgrading to newer versions of OS X because not all the changes are intrusive like they are on Windows *cough* WIndows 8 *cough*. I just don't want to upgrade because I will have to upgrade the rest of my apps which will be a pain in the rear

Having worked daily in Lion, Mountain Lion, Mavericks and now Yosemite I can say that for myself, I do mind upgrading.

Lion killed the ability to reduce the size of Finder windows past a specific minimum, which is way too large for my setup. Both ML and Mavericks have a SMB/CIFS bug that prevents me from staying connected to the server for more than 24 hours and will instantly kill InDesign when the connection is lost.

Mavericks came up with that dumbass tagging ball crap instead of real labels. I've had to resort to the feature in XtraFinder. And Yosemite, although it fixed the SMB/CIFS bug, is no great improvement on either of the last three versions.

El Capitan locks down system files, preventing you from making any modifications and starting with Lion Apple hid the user Library folder.

So, all the way around for me I'm good with Snow Leopard. Just my opinion.

 

[Orizence]

Although I have noticed the finder window limitation, and the lack of ability to modify system files as a user, I haven't been too effected by this on the Macs that I use (including a 2009 iMac at work). But I can totally see how the smb bugs can interfere with your workflow.

Until I get a new Macbook this summer, I'm sticking with snow leopard.

 

[redheeler]

El Capitan locks down system files, preventing you from making any modifications

It's fairy easy to disable. Boot into the Recovery OS and run "csrutil disable" in Terminal.

and starting with Lion Apple hid the user Library folder.

A neat trick I learned on this forum, you can hold down Option when opening the Finder Go menu:

 

[eyoungren]

It's fairy easy to disable. Boot into the Recovery OS and run "csrutil disable" in Terminal.

A neat trick I learned on this forum, you can hold down Option when opening the Finder Go menu:
View attachment 622627

Right. I wasn't unaware of that. I've executed the terminal commands that keeps the Library folder visible in Yosemite.

But my point is that I should not have to do these things. And in regards to El Capitan System Integrity Protection, you can disable it now. But later? Apple hasn't promised that it would allow you to disable it later on. What happens when they stop allowing you to disable Gatekeeper and other functions?

No, OS X is headed towards iOS in the sense that at some point it will be necessary to "jailbreak" it in order to make it the way you want it to.

I'm just not cool with that.

 

[stewart1981]

I like the idea of what iCloud does and indeed my windows machines are now doing just that with photos, calender, email etc but I had nothing but trouble on Lion and and even my father in law, a lifelong Apple man has said that Microsoft seem to have got the edge at present. I don't like how Apple are locking more and more areas down. However it is also logical to assume Mozilla will move with them in the OS they support.

I have the developer edition on SL and it runs very well so they can have a working browser.....

 

[bunnspecial]

Let's not forget that they killed Disk Utility in El Capitan

 

[eyoungren]

Let's not forget that they killed Disk Utility in El Capitan

I didn't know that. Sheesh!

Another reason not to upgrade. Now you can't even work with your disks? Or did they make some alternative for creating disk images, burning and such?

 

[bunnspecial]

I didn't know that. Sheesh!

Another reason not to upgrade. Now you can't even work with your disks? Or did they make some alternative for creating disk images, burning and such?

Perhaps "killing" was too strong of a word. It's still there, but what they did was completely redesigned it and in turn took out a lot of features.

I'd guess 90% of Mac Users never use disk utility or even know of its existence, but for the 10% of us who do(especially the so called "power users" like a couple of us around here who keep it open all the time) don't like it. Apparently, most of the old features are still accessible through Terminal, but the GUI was so nice and packed with a ton of features, all of which I used from time to time.

 

[garirry]

Another reason not to upgrade. Now you can't even work with your disks? Or did they make some alternative for creating disk images, burning and such?

Disk image editing still exists in DU I think.
For RAID just use a terminal command. If you can't figure out how to use RAID then you shouldn't be RAIDing in the first place.
Is it bad that they removed so many features? Yes. Is it a problem? Should not be.

But my point is that I should not have to do these things. And in regards to El Capitan System Integrity Protection, you can disable it now. But later? Apple hasn't promised that it would allow you to disable it later on. What happens when they stop allowing you to disable Gatekeeper and other functions?

Yes you should. Most people are dumbasses who don't know what the hell they're doing to their computer. Not to mention very few actually NEED to do OS changes. And Apple won't remove SIP disabling because they are fully aware that a lot of high-end computer users are Mac users. Oh, and just so you know, iOS has become less and less necessary of jailbreaking, unlike what most people think.

Lion killed the ability to reduce the size of Finder windows past a specific minimum, which is way too large for my setup.

What? Do you have a 320x240 screen or something? Also, I just tested it in Le and ML and they both reduce to the same minimum, so not sure what you're talking about.

Mavericks came up with that dumbass tagging ball crap instead of real labels. I've had to resort to the feature in XtraFinder.

Seriously, what's the problem, if you don't need tags, use them as labels. It's literally just an improvement over the last few versions, because now you can sort files with specific labels. Don't see the problem.

So how about you stop being so nostalgic and open your eyes; they have much less problems than you think they do.

 

[jbarley]

The very name of this forum, "Power PC Macs" is nostalgic, nostalgia is good, the direction Apple is heading not so!

 

[Dronecatcher]

For RAID just use a terminal command. If you can't figure out how to use RAID then you shouldn't be RAIDing in the first place.

That's a ludicrous argument - reminds me of the people who say, "you shouldn't be using Linux if can't work at the command line."
Apple is or was about getting the job done without the computer getting in the way - cranking up Terminal and reciting code is a step backwards.

 

[garirry]

That's a ludicrous argument - reminds me of the people who say, "you shouldn't be using Linux if can't work at the command line."
Apple is or was about getting the job done without the computer getting in the way - cranking up Terminal and reciting code is a step backwards.

I get that, I'm not saying Apple is right for removing RAID from DU, I said that it shouldn't cause problems considering a lot of us consider ourselves 'pro'. Knowing a few basic terminal commands (and trust me, it's VERY simple how to do) on how to RAID is still something you should know if you're a 'pro', or if you are planning to do something not super-simple like RAID. It's okay to not know the command if you don't need to, but it's not okay to not know the command when you need to and then you start crying about how they removed the feature from Disk Utility.

 

[eyoungren]

Disk image editing still exists in DU I think.
For RAID just use a terminal command. If you can't figure out how to use RAID then you shouldn't be RAIDing in the first place.
Is it bad that they removed so many features? Yes. Is it a problem? Should not be.

Yeah, I got that when bunnspecial posted about it. Won't be using El Capitan.

Yes you should. Most people are dumbasses who don't know what the hell they're doing to their computer. Not to mention very few actually NEED to do OS changes. And Apple won't remove SIP disabling because they are fully aware that a lot of high-end computer users are Mac users. Oh, and just so you know, iOS has become less and less necessary of jailbreaking, unlike what most people think.

I'm not a dumbass. Thanks.

As to jailbreaking I will keep doing it until Apple allows me to do below stock.

What? Do you have a 320x240 screen or something? Also, I just tested it in Le and ML and they both reduce to the same minimum, so not sure what you're talking about.

No. Three monitors. All 1920 by 1080. See below and you will see why I cannot just shrink by hand and cram in all the windows I want.

Seriously, what's the problem, if you don't need tags, use them as labels. It's literally just an improvement over the last few versions, because now you can sort files with specific labels. Don't see the problem.

Tags don't stretch across like labels. They are little balls that go on the far right and disappear when I shrink windows down.

Kind of hard to tell what's what when you have a color coded system and all the tag balls are way over on the right out of sight.

So how about you stop being so nostalgic and open your eyes; they have much less problems than you think they do.

Uhm. I'm posting in the PowerPC section here.

I don't understand you. Is the problem you are having with my opinions just because they are not the same as yours? Or do you simply see my opinion as invalid and wrong because you disagree with it?

 

[garirry]

Okay, I think I understand your concerns, but to be honest, I think those are still extremely minor things. I understand that it changes everything sometimes, but I just don't see it here.

Uhm. I'm posting in the PowerPC section here.

I don't understand you. Is the problem you are having with my opinions just because they are not the same as yours? Or do you simply see my opinion as invalid and wrong because you disagree with it?

Neither, it's just that the way you formulated it seemed like you were being nostalgia blind to Snow Leopard. I have nothing wrong with your opinion, it's just that when you make it seem like those changes are a horrible thing and make the modern systems "unusable" and "dumbed down by Apple", it gets frustrating really fast.

 

[0248294]

I completely agree with what has been said on Apple dumbing things down way too far. I guess they want to innovate, but dumbing/slimming things down for the sake of "innovation" isn't innovation at all. It's that what is pushing the pro market away from Apple. The 2013 trash can is the prime example of that.

 

[eyoungren]

Okay, I think I understand your concerns, but to be honest, I think those are still extremely minor things. I understand that it changes everything sometimes, but I just don't see it here.

We have a difference of opinion - although at least you understand some of it now.

It's not minor to me. I have several different folders I access routinely, so I leave them open and arrange them according to how much I use them and in what context. I need to be able to quickly see what is what. I've worked this way from 2004 until 2013 when we got the MacPro and being unable to size folders down correctly is extremely frustrating.

Fortunately I have Finder Window Manager and an Applescript to help, but Leopard/Snow Leopard let me take Finder windows down much further.

Neither, it's just that the way you formulated it seemed like you were being nostalgia blind to Snow Leopard. I have nothing wrong with your opinion, it's just that when you make it seem like those changes are a horrible thing and make the modern systems "unusable" and "dumbed down by Apple", it gets frustrating really fast.

These changes are a horrible thing to me because they prevent me from working in the most productive manner. They do not make the system unuseable just more difficult to use for me.

And as far as dumbing down - well, I get why Apple does this, but I'm not one of those customers. And while I love Apple, if it gets to the point where it prevents me from doing what I want then I won't be upgrading.

But these are just my frustrations. I'm not saying Apple is wrong for everyone else or that it's a horrible thing for anyone other than me.

 

[redheeler]

But my point is that I should not have to do these things. And in regards to El Capitan System Integrity Protection, you can disable it now. But later? Apple hasn't promised that it would allow you to disable it later on. What happens when they stop allowing you to disable Gatekeeper and other functions?

No, OS X is headed towards iOS in the sense that at some point it will be necessary to "jailbreak" it in order to make it the way you want it to.

I'm just not cool with that.

I've always considered System Integrity Protection a security feature to limit the extent of a potential malware infection. Sure it wouldn't be necessary for experienced users like you and me, but there are an increasing number of new users on Macs. Right now it can be disabled by a more experienced user, and it stays like that until you set it otherwise (or reset the PRAM). I have not seen anything to suggest that will change in 10.12, aside from maybe having to re-disable it after the update.

There is something that frustrates me about Yosemite/El Capitan (besides the Disk Utility update mentioned above), and that is the behavior of the green button. On a 27" display I don't need fullscreen for most things, and there isn't a setting to make the Option-click behavior default as it had been for over a decade in OS X.

 

[bse5150]

The very name of this forum, "Power PC Macs" is nostalgic, nostalgia is good, the direction Apple is heading not so!

Your computer is five or more years old. You could really benefit from an iPad Pro.

 

[eyoungren]

I've always considered System Integrity Protection a security feature to limit the extent of a potential malware infection. Sure it wouldn't be necessary for experienced users like you and me, but there are an increasing number of new users on Macs. Right now it can be disabled by a more experienced user, and it stays like that until you set it otherwise (or reset the PRAM). I have not seen anything to suggest that will change in 10.12, aside from maybe having to re-disable it after the update.

There is something that frustrates me about Yosemite/El Capitan (besides the Disk Utility update mentioned above), and that is the behavior of the green button. On a 27" display I don't need fullscreen for most things, and there isn't a setting to make the Option-click behavior default as it had been for over a decade in OS X.

Yeah, I get the security thing. Lots of new users who mistake the optical drive tray as a cup holder and therefore should not be allowed to muck around with the system.

My concern though is that at some point with some upgrade Apple says "No more disabling SIP for you!" and for people like us all of a sudden the system is now locked down. Then it becomes the same cat and mouse game I (and others) play with Apple in regards to jailbreaking.

I can accept that when dealing with my iDevices, but not my computers.

And I hear you on the OPTN-click behavior for maximizing windows!

 

[MacCubed]

I installed the Yosemite Disk Utility on my MBP on El Cap, works a thousand times better than the stock. I also will agree on the green button behavior, I wish it was fit to screen, and not go full screen.... I have been meaning to get around to installing SL on my MBP again, going to do it this weekend along with making an install USB. I honestly don't mind the new look of OS X and iOS, it was a much needed refresh. The only thing I don't like is how much performance falls on older devices, my iPhone 4 literally turned into a rock from iOS 7.

 

[redheeler]

Yeah, I get the security thing. Lots of new users who mistake the optical drive tray as a cup holder and therefore should not be allowed to muck around with the system.

Yes, and of course their solution for that was to remove the tray and go to slot-loaders, but after new users started using those as credit card holders they eventually removed the optical drive entirely

My concern though is that at some point with some upgrade Apple says "No more disabling SIP for you!" and for people like us all of a sudden the system is now locked down. Then it becomes the same cat and mouse game I (and others) play with Apple in regards to jailbreaking.

I can accept that when dealing with my iDevices, but not my computers.

There's nothing to suggest SIP will become permanent, but if it ever does, that will be the day I start refusing to upgrade OS X on my main iMac. I suspect it will also force many more advanced Mac users onto Windows and Linux, and the OS X usage share will decline as a result.

 

[eyoungren]

Yes, and of course their solution for that was to remove the tray and go to slot-loaders, but after new users started using those as credit card holders they eventually removed the optical drive entirely

Yeah, Apple missed the boat on that one! Could have been collecting on customers credit cards all this time if they'd just installed the CC reader!

There's nothing to suggest SIP will become permanent, but if it ever does, that will be the day I start refusing to upgrade OS X on my main iMac. I suspect it will also force many more advanced Mac users onto Windows and Linux, and the OS X usage share will decline as a result.

No. But there was nothing in Yosemite either to suggest that SIP itself would be coming.

Who knows what is or is not next? It's not like Apple announced SIP and broadly spoke about it as a feature. They may have mentioned it, but I don't recall them talking too much about it.

But I do agree that if something like lockdown occurs I will be moving along at some point. I like Windows 7 and we have a Win10 laptop at home. Don't care for the laptop, but Win10 is nice.

And I much prefer Cortana over Siri.

And Cortana has Master Chief to back her up.

 

[bunnspecial]

These changes are a horrible thing to me because they prevent me from working in the most productive manner. They do not make the system unuseable just more difficult to use for me.

Yes, exactly. I'm not a heavy user of folder tags and when I do use them I can get by with the balls, but I know Mac users who have basically been using them since they were introduced(System 7?) and they represent a significant part of their workflow. In your case, with the way your work operates and what you need to do to get your work done I understand how things are a huge inconvenience.

I've been dealing the past few days with someone who is unfortunately higher above me and is basically trying to micromanage a significant part of my workflow...to be blunt I've got crap to get done, and when you have a system in place to do it efficiently it's a big inconvenience(or, in other words, a productivity hindrance) to have that changed.

I guess not enough folks are complaining about the tagging(probably because that's really an ancient Mac feature that a lot of users aren't even aware of) but one would hope there would be enough feedback that they would treat it like spring loaded folders in OS X. BTW, if they decide to ditch those, I'll be one of the ones AGAIN complaining.

There is something that frustrates me about Yosemite/El Capitan (besides the Disk Utility update mentioned above), and that is the behavior of the green button. On a 27" display I don't need fullscreen for most things, and there isn't a setting to make the Option-click behavior default as it had been for over a decade in OS X.

Honestly the green button behavior is one of those little things that keeps me using Mavericks on my main Intel computers. Yes, it's a little thing, but rarely do I want windows to go full screen, and I'd rather that be the option than the default. Up until Yosemite, the green button operated exactly as did the far right square back in System 5 or whenever the heck they introduced it-again another Mac features that users expect to work a certain way and they arbitrarily change it.

Yes, and of course their solution for that was to remove the tray and go to slot-loaders, but after new users started using those as credit card holders they eventually removed the optical drive entirely

Don't forget that Apple still sold tray loaders up until 2013 , and working from memory at that time it was one of two computers at the time that even HAD an optical drive.

 

[eyoungren]

Yes, exactly. I'm not a heavy user of folder tags and when I do use them I can get by with the balls, but I know Mac users who have basically been using them since they were introduced(System 7?) and they represent a significant part of their workflow. In your case, with the way your work operates and what you need to do to get your work done I understand how things are a huge inconvenience.

I've been dealing the past few days with someone who is unfortunately higher above me and is basically trying to micromanage a significant part of my workflow...to be blunt I've got crap to get done, and when you have a system in place to do it efficiently it's a big inconvenience(or, in other words, a productivity hindrance) to have that changed.

I guess not enough folks are complaining about the tagging(probably because that's really an ancient Mac feature that a lot of users aren't even aware of) but one would hope there would be enough feedback that they would treat it like spring loaded folders in OS X. BTW, if they decide to ditch those, I'll be one of the ones AGAIN complaining.

Yeah. My workflow, like that of many others, is based on years of trial and error as well as problem resolution that makes what I do the most efficient way to do it. Only Applescript or some form of automation would make things easier for me.

When I'm dropping ads into our newspaper document being able to tell what is a pickup, what is a house ad and what is a brand new ad is considerably easier if I can look and see by color. When everything is colorless then I have to look more carefully to make sure I'm opening the correct folder. That slows things down.

So, to have something hinder that, such as is happening with you, is not appreciated.

That said, I work in a niche industry that is part of the already small design industry. The liklihood of many people working the same way I do is not there - particularly since many papers like mine are one man shops where designers generally tend to be stuck in a different style of workflow that I detest. And Apple also has a way of ignoring things even when the complaints are high.

 

[Gamer9430]

And I much prefer Cortana over Siri.

And Cortana has Master Chief to back her up.

I love using Cortana on Windows 10. It's everything I want in a Virtual assistant. However, SIRI has the one up on sarcasm and sass