My first nightmare client!

[THX1139]

You went back to school and you didn't learn how to bill or control a client? Your very first mistake was booking a $75 job with a 3 hour time limit. If that is all someone can afford, then don't work for them. In my experience, the cheaper they are, the more demanding they usually are. Your second mistake was giving the power to your client and not billing him for phone time. You didn't manage the job and you paid the price. I bet you didn't even have a signed contract.

 

[Philalbe]

Thankfully I cut my ties with that person very quickly and ensure all of my work was NEVER used by them. It was when I was much greener so it was a good thing to learn and enable me to set some very good boundaries

1) Never work with a friend of a friend.
2) Never work for free.
3) Never work for a start up business UNLESS it has a larger group behind it (Public/private equity group, blue chip client with a new business, etc.. is ok).
4) Never do work for a religious organisation (seriously not a good idea). Or for that matter a union...
5) If you lie with dogs you'll get flees. Never work on a project you wouldn't want other clients seeing as a client of yours on your Portfolio.
6) Never work with a company where they can't speak your native language... Cheque time comes and "miso soli me no undastandy".
7) Be choosy about who you want to work with. Talented designers will always find work while talentless designers wont.



I found in experience if you price yourself a certain way you tend to loose the "bottom feeding clients" as I like to call them. It also means the people who take up the service generally understand the price positioning thus have an idea of intrinsic value assigned to it.

Here's a links I've found rather amusing/helpful:
10 Client Personalities
Bad Clients and How to Avoid Them


I also forgot about this gem of a client

To that last email about the site being developed on a Mac: WOW!...just WOW! I don't know what's worse; their ignorance of how websites work or the fact they confidently expected you to create a second site, free of charge

Thank you for all the advice and links. That bad client was a wake up call for me. I'm going to start gathering all the pricing and other info I can to help protect myself.

 

[Philalbe]

You went back to school and you didn't learn how to bill or control a client? Your very first mistake was booking a $75 job with a 3 hour time limit. If that is all someone can afford, then don't work for them. In my experience, the cheaper they are, the more demanding they usually are. Your second mistake was giving the power to your client and not billing him for phone time. You didn't manage the job and you paid the price. I bet you didn't even have a signed contract.

Hi. You're right about my lack of pricing knowledge. I remember when I was in school I would often ask instructors about pricing and they would kind of cryptically shy away from it. It would be good if they added a class about pricing and ethics to the curriculum, or at least provided students with a packet containing basic pricing guidelines.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

You went back to school and you didn't learn how to bill or control a client? Your very first mistake was booking a $75 job with a 3 hour time limit. If that is all someone can afford, then don't work for them. In my experience, the cheaper they are, the more demanding they usually are. Your second mistake was giving the power to your client and not billing him for phone time. You didn't manage the job and you paid the price. I bet you didn't even have a signed contract.

It's funny how there's things in a University that are what I would only refer to as assume knowledge. Pricing, billings, building a cv and building a professional network are very much skimped over IMHO.

It wasn't until I started working in house as a creative I really got a good understanding of these processes, what I would suggest though is to buy this book.

Pricing, I cannot repeat this enough charge how you think you should be paid. 3 hours for a web site mock-up for $75 wouldn't get me out of bed, your undercutting yourself and making yourself marketable to the low ballers.

Whatever your charging divide by 4, as a freelance that is your REAL hourly wages. So if you're charging $25 per hour you're real hourly wage is $6.25, workers are Burger King earn more.

Charging more will bracket yourself to a better class of client IMHO.

 

[ILikeTurtles]

Hi,

Just to give a quick backstory; I spent years going back to school for design and at last I've finally acquired my degree. I now have a budding freelance business with a handful of small clients, all of whom are relatively civil, good natured and appreciative of my work.

Recently a long distance client I really get along with referred me to someone. He hired me to do a logo for his marketing startup. He was pleased with the end result and asked me to take on a second project, designing a mockup for a website that he could then turn over to a developer. He set a time limit of 3 hours, because that's all he could afford. Everything was going fine till about 2 hours in. He liked the direction I was going in, so while I was waiting to hear back I did some small revisions (off the clock), just to satisfy my own design sensibilities. I sent them to him to see what he thought. He suddenly calls me saturday afternoon and from the get go, seems to have an attitude. He wants to go over all the revisions I sent him. So I scramble for my macbook. As I'm going through my folders in search of the files he starts getting flustered and belittling. I offer to call him back in an hour after I've gathered everything and before one of us says something we'll regret, but he wants to stay on the phone and takes an even more offensive tone. I'm a laid back guy, but I had enough and firmly reminded him that I was trying to design a site for him within a 3 hour limit and had been good enough to not bill him for all the phone time he insisted on and had even stopped the clock a couple of times. He then startled to backpedal and complimented me on my work and how fair my pricing was ($25.00 an hour). The conversation went on for about another half hour as in the aftermath we awkwardly discussed the project. I think I did a pretty good job of remaining diplomatic. I've now just about completed the project and now he's talking about having me design a business card The whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. I know there can always be an element of stress with any type of work is, but that was a bit much.

Sorry for the rant, but I felt like I needed to vent to fellow designers. Anyone else have any horror stories?

My advice as a designer - CUT & RUN!

There will be other clients to replace this ******.

 

[gnasher729]

Sorry for the rant, but I felt like I needed to vent to fellow designers. Anyone else have any horror stories?

Some people will walk all over you if you let them. Send an email "on the previous job I was paid for 3 hours but my total time spent was actually xxx hours. I can't afford jobs like that, so if you want another job done, you'll have to agree that time spent on phone calls will be billed as well. " And buy a stopwatch.

Your job is not to produce graphics designs. Your job is to produce billable hours.

Hi. Thanks for the reply. I do have a pretty good archiving system. I have a folder untitled "freelance" and therein is a folder named after each client and then each project. The guy kind of threw me with the sudden weekend call. You're right about the phone time too. No more mister nice guy; there's no reason to cheat myself for billable meeting time when I'm already lowballing myself.

Add: "Weekend work, including phone calls is charged at double rate. Sunday work at triple rate. ".

 

[notjustjay]

I would agree that you should start raising your rates to attract a higher calibre of clientele. If you have existing clients that you enjoy working with that you don't want to annoy by suddenly raising your prices on them, you can always offer them a "preferred client" rate or some such.

As for the annoying micromanaging client, perhaps that's when you set up something like WordPress and pass it along for them to update themselves?

I'm also curious as to the rule against working for religious organizations. (I'm not a designer for hire, but I do a lot of design and web work for a charity I volunteer with, which is indeed a religious organization). Is it because they're always on the cheap? Are they more demanding than your usual clients? Help us avoid making the classic mistakes

 

[Philalbe]

My advice as a designer - CUT & RUN!

There will be other clients to replace this ******.

Hi. Thanks for the support. The only good thing about the whole experience is that it's served as kind of a wake up call for me, regarding how I want to handle pricing and clients in the future.

 

[Philalbe]

Some people will walk all over you if you let them. Send an email "on the previous job I was paid for 3 hours but my total time spent was actually xxx hours. I can't afford jobs like that, so if you want another job done, you'll have to agree that time spent on phone calls will be billed as well. " And buy a stopwatch.

Your job is not to produce graphics designs. Your job is to produce billable hours.




Add: "Weekend work, including phone calls is charged at double rate. Sunday work at triple rate. ".

Hi. Thanks for the advice. I like your attitude. There's no reason for me to continue letting cheap customers have the upper hand.

 

[Philalbe]

It's funny how there's things in a University that are what I would only refer to as assume knowledge. Pricing, billings, building a cv and building a professional network are very much skimped over IMHO.

It wasn't until I started working in house as a creative I really got a good understanding of these processes, what I would suggest though is to buy this book.

Pricing, I cannot repeat this enough charge how you think you should be paid. 3 hours for a web site mock-up for $75 wouldn't get me out of bed, your undercutting yourself and making yourself marketable to the low ballers.

Whatever your charging divide by 4, as a freelance that is your REAL hourly wages. So if you're charging $25 per hour you're real hourly wage is $6.25, workers are Burger King earn more.

Charging more will bracket yourself to a better class of client IMHO.

Hi. Thanks. I think your right. The solution may be for me to send the "hourly" thing the way of the dodo. Set prices will help protect me from chiselers who claim they can only afford so many hours.

 

[notjustjay]

Hi. Thanks. I think your right. The solution may be for me to send the "hourly" thing the way of the dodo. Set prices will help protect me from chiselers who claim they can only afford so many hours.

I don't think that's necessarily what he meant -- only that you should raise your hourly rate.

It's up to you whether you charge by set prices or by hourly rates, but you do need to be able to accurately estimate the work involved -- if you underestimate the work and price according to that, then you're stuck in the same boat.

Perhaps a combination of approaches. A website, for example, might start at $500, which includes 2 hours of client consultation and 10 hours of work, and two hours of after-sales support work. Additional hours beyond this are charged at $40/hour. I made up those numbers from thin air, but you get the idea.

That way you're covered in both directions. A piddly little site doesn't yield piddly little money, and the big complex clients get to pay accordingly too.

 

[ChicoWeb]

1) Never work with a friend of a friend.
2) Never work for free.
3) Never work for a start up business UNLESS it has a larger group behind it (Public/private equity group, blue chip client with a new business, etc.. is ok).
4) Never do work for a religious organisation (seriously not a good idea). Or for that matter a union...
5) If you lie with dogs you'll get flees. Never work on a project you wouldn't want other clients seeing as a client of yours on your Portfolio.
6) Never work with a company where they can't speak your native language... Cheque time comes and "miso soli me no undastandy".
7) Be choosy about who you want to work with. Talented designers will always find work while talentless designers wont.

8) Other artists. They always have pre-defined notions are are rarely up for up for interpretation
9) Design by committee. When there is more then 2 or 3 people approving your design, RUN.

I've only had to fire 2 clients in 8 years of business. One photographer, and one glass blowing gallery. To that I say no more!

 

[ezekielrage_99]

8) Other artists. They always have pre-defined notions are are rarely up for up for interpretation
9) Design by committee. When there is more then 2 or 3 people approving your design, RUN.

Ahhh yes.. I forgot about those two chestnuts

Marketing departments also seem to have the same affect on me as other artists, they have an idea and generally wont let it go... They seem to pop in awesome critiques like:

make it more webbish

We are looking for a great design, it will bring much honor and prosperity to our beloved company.

(yes from a non English speaking client)

While design committee = death by firing squad

 

[davidgrimm]

$25 an hour?

Wow, $25 an hour sounds very reasonable to me. Is that really the going rate for graphic design or is that the "just getting started in design" rate? Anyway, hope it works out for you. Sometimes the difficult clients can provide the most rewarding work, but the psycho ones are seldom worth the effort.

 

[THX1139]

Wow, $25 an hour sounds very reasonable to me. Is that really the going rate for graphic design or is that the "just getting started in design" rate? Anyway, hope it works out for you. Sometimes the difficult clients can provide the most rewarding work, but the psycho ones are seldom worth the effort.

$25 an hour for 3 hours work is NOT reasonable unless you live in a motor home in the desert. $25 is only good if it's a wage and you have an employer paying benefits and taxes for you. But as a freelancer, $25 is not that much by the time you pay taxes and other expenses; unless you are billing out 50 or 60 hours a week. 3 hours at $25 is terrible! A hundred hours (billable) at $25 is better... but still kind of low (depending on experience and where you live).

If the OP is going to bill hourly, then he at least needs to set a minimum hourly charge to make worth his while.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

$25 an hour for 3 hours work is NOT reasonable unless you live in a motor home in the desert. $25 is only good if it's a wage and you have an employer paying benefits and taxes for you. But as a freelancer, $25 is not that much by the time you pay taxes and other expenses; unless you are billing out 50 or 60 hours a week. 3 hours at $25 is terrible! A hundred hours (billable) at $25 is better... but still kind of low (depending on experience and where you live).

If the OP is going to bill hourly, then he at least needs to set a minimum hourly charge to make worth his while.

Again to get the real hourly wage divide $25 by 3, that is the true hourly rate which is $8.30. Reasonable I think not.

Generally the rule is the rule of 3 (this is how I quote, clients are happy and I don't undercut myself), times quotes by 3 and divide your hourly rate by this will give you the most accurate way of billing and ensuring you don't undercut yourself while the actual payment is never over the quoted amount (clients love this). It means it will allow you to reinvest in yourself with sick leave, holidays, new equipment and software.

So for a site mock up I would have quoted $675, while the actual billable would have come in around $375-$450.

 

[Philalbe]

Again to get the real hourly wage divide $25 by 3, that is the true hourly rate which is $8.30. Reasonable I think not.

Generally the rule is the rule of 3 (this is how I quote, clients are happy and I don't undercut myself), times quotes by 3 and divide your hourly rate by this will give you the most accurate way of billing and ensuring you don't undercut yourself while the actual payment is never over the quoted amount (clients love this). It means it will allow you to reinvest in yourself with sick leave, holidays, new equipment and software.

So for a site mock up I would have quoted $675, while the actual billable would have come in around $375-$450.

Hi. Thanks yet again for all the advice. I've learned more about pricing from this thread the last 2 days, than I did all my years at school. If I can be a pig and ask for a little more advice. I'd like to show an example of what I've been doing for a client who owns a music studio/music school. They have me design cd packaging for their artists, that they then send to Oasis for print. The one on the right has already gone to print and the artist was very happy with the end result. The one on the left is near finished. I'm ashamed to say I charged the same low hourly figure for this work as well. What do you think this kind of work is worth; if I may ask? Thanks

 

[Fgirl]

i remember when i was starting out...

gosh i can remember not that many years ago.. before i had established clients... rent would be due the next day and i was $100 short... then the phone rings with some new low budget client... i tell ya, those problematic and low-budget clients save the day now and again.

until you get established and can reliably and predictably pay the bills each month, be careful which projects you walk away from. once you get going, build up a supply of cash-money, enough to get you through a few bad months.

alot of people here may be established and have good and reliable income, and some may have been substantially profitable from day one, but im sure many of us can remember the early days and the lean days, when you might have taken a client you would never touch nowadays.

always make certain you can pay the bills each month, sometimes that means you have to deal with a knucklehead, or get paid substantially less than what you want, and if it turns out that you have to do just that, don't think less of yourself for it, the lean days will pass, the good days will come. many of us have been there and back, more than once.

be honorable, fair, charitable. in your spare time build websites, etc for people/groups who need them. ie, independent homeless shelters for runaway kids. add it to your portfolio if you need to, especially when your starting out.

 

[Philalbe]

gosh i can remember not that many years ago.. before i had established clients... rent would be due the next day and i was $100 short... then the phone rings with some new low budget client... i tell ya, those problematic and low-budget clients save the day now and again.

until you get established and can reliably and predictably pay the bills each month, be careful which projects you walk away from. once you get going, build up a supply of cash-money, enough to get you through a few bad months.

alot of people here may be established and have good and reliable income, and some may have been substantially profitable from day one, but im sure many of us can remember the early days and the lean days, when you might have taken a client you would never touch nowadays.

always make certain you can pay the bills each month, sometimes that means you have to deal with a knucklehead, or get paid substantially less than what you want, and if it turns out that you have to do just that, don't think less of yourself for it, the lean days will pass, the good days will come. many of us have been there and back, more than once.

be honorable, fair, charitable. in your spare time build websites, etc for people/groups who need them. ie, independent homeless shelters for runaway kids. add it to your portfolio if you need to, especially when your starting out.

Hi. Thanks for the kind advice; I appreciate it.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

I'd recommend looking at the following:
http://vandelaydesign.com/blog/marketing/12-realities-of-pricing-web-design-services/
http://www.linkedin.com
http://www.smartsheet.com/
http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2010/10/charging-per-hour-vs-per-project/
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/201...d-professionalism-are-we-our-own-worst-enemy/
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/07/14/quality-price-ratio-in-web-design-pricing-design-work/


It's hard to comment on how to actually charge your service because I am not in the US, but take a look at similar businesses and how they charge use this as a guide. Also gauge the project on how much the client is prepared to pay, it might be a cheap but open the door to many other good clients or it could be an expensive one off with little benefit for you.

 

[Philalbe]

I'd recommend looking at the following:
http://vandelaydesign.com/blog/marketing/12-realities-of-pricing-web-design-services/
http://www.linkedin.com
http://www.smartsheet.com/
http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2010/10/charging-per-hour-vs-per-project/
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/201...d-professionalism-are-we-our-own-worst-enemy/
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/07/14/quality-price-ratio-in-web-design-pricing-design-work/


It's hard to comment on how to actually charge your service because I am not in the US, but take a look at similar businesses and how they charge use this as a guide. Also gauge the project on how much the client is prepared to pay, it might be a cheap but open the door to many other good clients or it could be an expensive one off with little benefit for you.

Hi. Thanks for the links. I can't believe all the good info I've been getting here. I've been copying and pasting all the links and bits of advice so I will have them to refer to again whenever the need arises.

 

[kustardking]

1) Never work with a friend of a friend.
2) Never work for free.
3) Never work for a start up business UNLESS it has a larger group behind it (Public/private equity group, blue chip client with a new business, etc.. is ok).
4) Never do work for a religious organisation (seriously not a good idea). Or for that matter a union...
5) If you lie with dogs you'll get fle<b>a</b>s. Never work on a project you wouldn't want other clients seeing as a client of yours on your Portfolio.
6) Never work with a company where they can't speak your native language... Cheque time comes and "miso soli me no undastandy".
7) Be choosy about who you want to work with. Talented designers will always find work while talentless designers wont.

[8] I found in experience if you price yourself a certain way you tend to loose the "bottom feeding clients" as I like to call them. It also means the people who take up the service generally understand the price positioning thus have an idea of intrinsic value assigned to it.

1. Unless and it pays money and you're green.
2. But don't stare at the clock. Get the job done to your promise, not the time. Become a better estimator. Always remember that you're providing a "service." This is much easier if you're being paid on a project basis rather than hourly. And remember this: working on an hourly basis is a hand-to-mouth existence. Even if you're making a lot, the mentality is still there.
3. Unless it pays money
4. Unless you are so aligned, or unless it pays money
5. Rather, partition your portfolio - you don't have to show everything to everyone. You need to work, for experience and money. Take what you have to. It is not about how you think others will see you, it's about your aesthetics, your proficiency, and your ability to work. The nature of your client will shake out as your professional experience grows.
6. +1
7. Sentence #1, yes but don't be prideful in your assessment, #2, only in an ideal world. Few clients actually know what looks good, and they'll judge you on your confidence, charisma and price point. Make sure the latter is graded to your personality, or else they'll bully you.
8. +1

"Unless is pays money" contingent on having no negative Spider Sense from meeting the client, and/or getting money up front. On that, for jobs of $400 or more, you should ask for a portion up front.

And, for those designing and implementing websites, I highly recommend drawing up maintenance contracts with monthly retainers. They give clients somewhere to go, keep your work alive, and generally make everyone at ease when it comes to further issues.

 

[kustardking]

Hi. Thanks yet again for all the advice. I've learned more about pricing from this thread the last 2 days, than I did all my years at school. If I can be a pig and ask for a little more advice. I'd like to show an example of what I've been doing for a client who owns a music studio/music school. They have me design cd packaging for their artists, that they then send to Oasis for print. The one on the right has already gone to print and the artist was very happy with the end result. The one on the left is near finished. I'm ashamed to say I charged the same low hourly figure for this work as well. What do you think this kind of work is worth; if I may ask? Thanks

The blue lettering is way too strong and doesn't match the constipated look of the artist. I expect the constipated look is actually supposed to be serious grandpa gangster, but the fonts are way too blunt in form and color and make his awkward portrait look that much more, well, awkward, because they don't provide any atmosphere. Also, if your crop marks are correct, the inside edge of the song roster on the back is in serious risk of falling into the fold, and the gray spine isn't wide enough.

The sunset-fields cover looks overly flat and has no dynamism despite the calligraphic title and fantasy world circle. The pieces on the cover look like oil and water - standing apart, not mixing, not supporting one another.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

1. Unless and it pays money and you're green.
2. But don't stare at the clock. Get the job done to your promise, not the time. Become a better estimator. Always remember that you're providing a "service." This is much easier if you're being paid on a project basis rather than hourly. And remember this: working on an hourly basis is a hand-to-mouth existence. Even if you're making a lot, the mentality is still there.
3. Unless it pays money
4. Unless you are so aligned, or unless it pays money
5. Rather, partition your portfolio - you don't have to show everything to everyone. You need to work, for experience and money. Take what you have to. It is not about how you think others will see you, it's about your aesthetics, your proficiency, and your ability to work. The nature of your client will shake out as your professional experience grows.
6. +1
7. Sentence #1, yes but don't be prideful in your assessment, #2, only in an ideal world. Few clients actually know what looks good, and they'll judge you on your confidence, charisma and price point. Make sure the latter is graded to your personality, or else they'll bully you.
8. +1

Making an Orwellian mockery of your rules will effect your credibility in the marketplace, it's that simple.

Gauge the project, scope of work and how to charge it (hourly or per project) is the best way of separating the chaff from the wheat and ensure you have a good working relationship with good clients while retaining a focused career path.

"Unless is pays money" contingent on having no negative Spider Sense from meeting the client, and/or getting money up front. On that, for jobs of $400 or more, you should ask for a portion up front.

I disagree with the "unless it pays money", not all paying jobs will be good for your portfolio. What you put on your portfolio will limit jobs you can or cannot get the next time around.

Now picture this, you walk into a very nice office overlooking Sydney Harbor the lobby is paved in stirling silver fixtures while the floor is imported Italian marble, you go into the boardroom for the meeting the table is made of Japanese Maple while there a some very nice high backed leather seats to sit on.

You meet the manager, he assures you that whatever you're charging it wont be an issue paying, you then go into the project.

Now most people hearing that would say "awesome take the job" but in hindsight the organisation politically was not a good company to deal with because it cannibalised the industry in 2001 and had very poor standing with other players. The other players would NEVER take on a person associated with this company due to the bad blood. I am not going to name the company but it was extremely hard to find work having that on a portfolio not to mention leaving it off ran the risk of having a hole on my CV.

What I am saying is taking the money you need to see how that will look on your CV. I now work for one of the largest media companies in Australia as a CD and the best advice I can give is you need to see how your work can limit or expand you career horizons.

 

[Les Kern]

Drop him now, and quit whoring yourself. He will continue to abuse you for pennies because that's how he flies, and you're letting him.

Check around at what other degreed or professional designers charge.
You are too low by a factor of a number I might run out of zeroes writing down.

I am brutally honest because i was there.