My first nightmare client!

[kustardking]

I disagree with the "unless it pays money", not all paying jobs will be good for your portfolio. What you put on your portfolio will limit jobs you can or cannot get the next time around.

Then don't put it in the portfolio. If all you can do is one thing at a time, then yes a hole will appear. If you're a freelancer, you will NOT BE BLAMED for a company's evil doings. If you ARE blamed, you don't know how to pitch yourself.

Now picture this, you walk into a very nice office overlooking Sydney Harbor the lobby is paved in stirling silver fixtures while the floor is imported Italian marble, you go into the boardroom for the meeting the table is made of Japanese Maple while there a some very nice high backed leather seats to sit on.

Never send a boy to do a man's job. Or, in other words, recognize the difference between yourself and what you're getting into. If you can't tell, then sayings such as, "in hindsight," will be in your future.

You meet the manager, he assures you that whatever you're charging it wont be an issue paying, you then go into the project.

Now most people hearing that would say "awesome take the job" but in hindsight the organisation politically was not a good company to deal with because it cannibalised the industry in 2001 and had very poor standing with other players. The other players would NEVER take on a person associated with this company due to the bad blood. I am not going to name the company but it was extremely hard to find work having that on a portfolio not to mention leaving it off ran the risk of having a hole on my CV.

Read: UP FRONT. Bedazzled for the maple table and view of the Meiji-jingu is just that - bedazzled. The problem was your lack of experience. **BUT** that would only be held against you if you couldn't EXPLAIN it. Now if you're talking about getting more work in Japan itself, then you'd better qualify your answers as such, because that is a different business culture.

What I am saying is taking the money you need to see how that will look on your CV. I now work for one of the largest media companies in Australia as a CD and the best advice I can give is you need to see how your work can limit or expand you career horizons.

If you're in a position to pick-and-choose, then either (a) you already know yourself, your talent, your work, and you are NOT the kind of person who the OP is, or (b) you need to go through the fire AND know how to learn from and explain mistakes.

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Then don't put it in the portfolio. If all you can do is one thing at a time, then yes a hole will appear. If you're a freelancer, you will NOT BE BLAMED for a company's evil doings. If you ARE blamed, you don't know how to pitch yourself.

Ad agency specifically in Australia are an interesting thing, since it's a very small market it's very easy to be out of the system due to who knows who and who has worked for who. Nepotism at its worst IMHO.

Never send a boy to do a man's job. Or, in other words, recognize the difference between yourself and what you're getting into. If you can't tell, then sayings such as, "in hindsight," will be in your future.

That was the point of my initial posts, hindsight is 20:20, and learning off others experience/failures can be a good thing.

Read: UP FRONT. Bedazzled for the maple table and view of the Meiji-jingu is just that - bedazzled. The problem was your lack of experience. **BUT** that would only be held against you if you couldn't EXPLAIN it. Now if you're talking about getting more work in Japan itself, then you'd better qualify your answers as such, because that is a different business culture.

It was hardly being bedazzled by awesomeness or dealing on a different cultural level with Japanese business (which I have done in the past, funny story about curved edged business cards though...)

Considering it was one of the largest web advertising companies in the Southern Hemisphere, hardly a player you'd expect to take a fall and be out of business within 6months of contracting there.... It had massive backing, a large list of clients, and employed well over 750 staff in Australia alone.

If you're in a position to pick-and-choose, then either (a) you already know yourself, your talent, your work, and you are NOT the kind of person who the OP is, or (b) you need to go through the fire AND know how to learn from and explain mistakes.

Though I understand where you're coming from, you also have to credit the fact there's an expectation of newbies to take every single job coming just because it pays rather than taking a strategic look instead of the day-to-day tactical vision.

 

[kustardking]

Drop him now, and quit whoring yourself. He will continue to abuse you for pennies because that's how he flies, and you're letting him.

Check around at what other degreed or professional designers charge.
You are too low by a factor of a number I might run out of zeroes writing down.

I am brutally honest because i was there.

Har har! Yes, I agree here, except for where you say, "you are too low by a factor of..." Have a look at the OP's cover designs, *very* early in visual maturity. I think he's right to be billing where he's at, but you are right that he should drop a mean client. At this level, you can find a lot of people to do work for, and can pick the nice ones.

 

[kustardking]

That was the point of my initial posts, hindsight is 20:20, and learning off others experience/failures can be a good thing.

Considering it was one of the largest web advertising companies in the Southern Hemisphere, hardly a player you'd expect to take a fall and be out of business within 6months of contracting there.... It had massive backing, a large list of clients, and employed well over 750 staff in Australia alone.

Then the only thing to learn from this story, like I wrote, is be ready to explain yourself.

Though I understand where you're coming from, you also have to credit the fact there's an expectation of newbies to take every single job coming just because it pays rather than taking a strategic look instead of the day-to-day tactical vision.

Yes, that expectation is correct, and this is because early on one can't be anything BUT tactical. Your AUS story verifies that you should take a portion of payment up front, regardless, and stand tall for decisions you make. Period.

The kind of learning you are suggesting the OP acquire through reading and osmosis is, in fact, only attainable through direct experience. Rather, "newbies" should, instead of prematurely declining jobs on principle, take real steps to reduce the negative impact of numerous INEVITABLE failures through a few basic must-dos when taking on a job. 1) Get up front money, especially from an ostensibly capable client, 2) pay your own bills, 3) do two things at the same time if you're truly worried about "holes" in your CV, 4) don't worry about holes in your CV (see #3), because you need to learn how to EXPLAIN your failures, 5) do some real design.

 

[Philalbe]

Drop him now, and quit whoring yourself. He will continue to abuse you for pennies because that's how he flies, and you're letting him.

Check around at what other degreed or professional designers charge.
You are too low by a factor of a number I might run out of zeroes writing down.

I am brutally honest because i was there.

Hi. No worries. I appreciate the honesty. Berating psycho clients get me hot under the collar, but constructive criticism from fellow designers is always welcome

 

[Magrathea]

My thoughts

As has probably been said in the forums before, $25/hour is on the low side.

Backing up a little and going slightly off topic: being passionate about something and being able to make a living at it are two totally different things. I think all creatives like ourselves should take a mandatory 6 month business class before we start our businesses. If you have bills to pay as most of us do, you gotta figure out how much you need per month and then how many clients @ x dollars per hour you need. If your living costs are low and you're just starting out then you can pretty much work for any amount just to get the experience but when you get older and you have a mortgage, car payment, kids ($$$$$$) you many end up working for someone else.

Also, now-a-days, with the power of computers and software it's pretty easy for someone not so technical to sign up for a free blog such as Tumblr and Wordpress, grab a theme for $50 and have a website up and running for next to nothing. The internet has been growing at a steady rate, even in the economic downturn (big company fires techies and they start on online company) BUT when you have too many players in any market, the middle of the market falls out. i.e. you end up haviong folks working for $10-15per hour and others working for $100. This is not good for any of us!

Also, working for ourselves we're more lightly to be tempted to tell a client to piss off as we're the boss so remember to keep your cool and be professional at all times even if the client is a no good tire kicking ^*&^* face!! And for the love of dog, make every client sign a contract where you lay out exactly what and sometimes more importantly WHAT YOU ARE NOT going to be doing for them. Client is being an ass, gently remind the client of what is written in the contract. Client is being a real ass; off to small claims court you go - one of the only decent things about the legal system in this country is that you do have certain rights compared to say other places on the globe!

OK, putting my predisposed negative Brit attitude aside and yes this disjointed rant is now coming to an end Nothing is stopping you from getting a book on selling, yes, we've all got to be sales people or teaming up with other to get some sweet deals!

(And as all good teachers will tell your, I've neglected most of the above in my Web Design Business to my own detriment! I have also never taken a client to court in 10 years of web design but I did think one was a no good tire kicking ^*&^* face though!)

Cheers

 

[AndyUnderscoreR]

One tip I have for those clients who want to change absolutley every little detail... explain that you are happy to change it all for an extra fee, and you'll even offer a lower hourly rate since you're not being asked to do anything creative, but remind them that they will end up with a site designed by an amateur to their personal, individual taste, rather than the site designed by a professional and designed to appeal to their whole customer base that they've already paid for.

 

[kustardking]

One tip I have for those clients who want to change absolutley every little detail... explain that you are happy to change it all for an extra fee, and you'll even offer a lower hourly rate since you're not being asked to do anything creative, but remind them that they will end up with a site designed by an amateur to their personal, individual taste, rather than the site designed by a professional and designed to appeal to their whole customer base that they've already paid for.

Make sure you have a paper trail for all decisions. Obviously the original contract, but it's very important to repeat all verbal changes through email. Email records are very handy to point to and find, "oops, I did say that," or advise, "well, you did say that."

 

[dime21]

One tip I have for those clients who want to change absolutley every little detail... explain that you are happy to change it all for an extra fee, and you'll even offer a lower hourly rate since you're not being asked to do anything creative, but remind them that they will end up with a site designed by an amateur to their personal, individual taste, rather than the site designed by a professional and designed to appeal to their whole customer base that they've already paid for.

Agree completely. I've found that what a client says they want, and what they really actually want, are frequently two very different things. Some times you have to go with your gut feeling and design something that you know is the proper way to do it. Then also design exactly what they asked for. Present first the one they asked for. When they start making faces, then present this other thing you put together, and they'll probably love it. That's been my experience at least. Yes, it's more work that way, doing it twice, but most customers simply don't have the design experience to be dictating what it should look like - which is precisely why they hired you.

 

[MacBoobsPro]

Hi,

Just to give a quick backstory; I spent years going back to school for design and at last I've finally acquired my degree. I now have a budding freelance business with a handful of small clients, all of whom are relatively civil, good natured and appreciative of my work.

Recently a long distance client I really get along with referred me to someone. He hired me to do a logo for his marketing startup. He was pleased with the end result and asked me to take on a second project, designing a mockup for a website that he could then turn over to a developer. He set a time limit of 3 hours, because that's all he could afford. Everything was going fine till about 2 hours in. He liked the direction I was going in, so while I was waiting to hear back I did some small revisions (off the clock), just to satisfy my own design sensibilities. I sent them to him to see what he thought. He suddenly calls me saturday afternoon and from the get go, seems to have an attitude. He wants to go over all the revisions I sent him. So I scramble for my macbook. As I'm going through my folders in search of the files he starts getting flustered and belittling. I offer to call him back in an hour after I've gathered everything and before one of us says something we'll regret, but he wants to stay on the phone and takes an even more offensive tone. I'm a laid back guy, but I had enough and firmly reminded him that I was trying to design a site for him within a 3 hour limit and had been good enough to not bill him for all the phone time he insisted on and had even stopped the clock a couple of times. He then startled to backpedal and complimented me on my work and how fair my pricing was ($25.00 an hour). The conversation went on for about another half hour as in the aftermath we awkwardly discussed the project. I think I did a pretty good job of remaining diplomatic. I've now just about completed the project and now he's talking about having me design a business card The whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth. I know there can always be an element of stress with any type of work is, but that was a bit much.

Sorry for the rant, but I felt like I needed to vent to fellow designers. Anyone else have any horror stories?

That is in no way a nightmare client. TRUST ME!!!! Nightmare clients are like one I had where he was on the phone every two minutes basically telling me what to do, essentially using me as a Mac monkey. Then when the 3 month project turned out to look like a steaming pile of crap he refused to pay.

 

[bushbeat]

....Anyone else have any horror stories?

All the horrible stories in this thread reminds me of David Thorne's bizarre article "Please design a logo for me. With pie charts. For free."
Have a laugh: http://bit.ly/6MEgQk