I was thinking about your setup because you wave so much equipment You should have gotten/made a three part L desk instead!
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My new music production workspace, 29th Dec 2021, last updated 23rd April 2024
- Thread starter MajorFubar
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Well that was a drama...
Updated to Logic 10.7.4 from 10.7.3 yesterday which apparently fixes a sh-tload of bugs, but for me all hell broke loose with Logic 10.7.4 refusing to stay connected to my Icon Qcon control-surfaces. Up to that point everything was working just fine, but after the update, Logic would drop connection to all of my control-surfaces every 4-5 seconds, taking as long again to reconnect, then rinse-repeat. Useless.
Everything is rigged to my Mac Studio via two four-port USB hubs: one terminates in a USB-A and has all the Qcon controllers plugged into it, and it in turn is plugged into one of the two USB-A sockets on the Mac Studio. The other hub terminates in a USB-C and has my audio interface, USB microphone and my two MIDI keyboard controllers plugged into it. (The typing keyboard, mouse and trackpad are connected via daisy-chained Y adaptors to the Mac Studio's remaining USB-A port. I don't use BT anymore. Too unreliable.)
By luck more than judgement, I managed to fix everything by swapping the USB hubs around: plugging all the Qcon controllers into the USB-C hub and plugging my audio-interface/USB mic/both midi keyboards into the USB-A hub.
I don't know why it worked but I'm glad it did because I didn't have a plan B.
EDIT: and I can confirm Logic 10.7.4 still has the annoying bug I first experienced in 10.7.3 where it does not recognise my four Qcon control-surfaces as different devices until you shuffle their icons round in the Control Surface Setup window, then shuffle them back to the order they should be in. My old iMac running High Sierra was brickwalled at Logic 10.4 and there was no issue with that version. I don't know how existing functionalities can just get broken during updates. But we see it often in the OS updates too. I think software is getting too darned complicated for the programmers to maintain, such that one arm doesn't know what the other arm's doing.
But for now, all is good, again.
Updated to Logic 10.7.4 from 10.7.3 yesterday which apparently fixes a sh-tload of bugs, but for me all hell broke loose with Logic 10.7.4 refusing to stay connected to my Icon Qcon control-surfaces. Up to that point everything was working just fine, but after the update, Logic would drop connection to all of my control-surfaces every 4-5 seconds, taking as long again to reconnect, then rinse-repeat. Useless.
Everything is rigged to my Mac Studio via two four-port USB hubs: one terminates in a USB-A and has all the Qcon controllers plugged into it, and it in turn is plugged into one of the two USB-A sockets on the Mac Studio. The other hub terminates in a USB-C and has my audio interface, USB microphone and my two MIDI keyboard controllers plugged into it. (The typing keyboard, mouse and trackpad are connected via daisy-chained Y adaptors to the Mac Studio's remaining USB-A port. I don't use BT anymore. Too unreliable.)
By luck more than judgement, I managed to fix everything by swapping the USB hubs around: plugging all the Qcon controllers into the USB-C hub and plugging my audio-interface/USB mic/both midi keyboards into the USB-A hub.
I don't know why it worked but I'm glad it did because I didn't have a plan B.
EDIT: and I can confirm Logic 10.7.4 still has the annoying bug I first experienced in 10.7.3 where it does not recognise my four Qcon control-surfaces as different devices until you shuffle their icons round in the Control Surface Setup window, then shuffle them back to the order they should be in. My old iMac running High Sierra was brickwalled at Logic 10.4 and there was no issue with that version. I don't know how existing functionalities can just get broken during updates. But we see it often in the OS updates too. I think software is getting too darned complicated for the programmers to maintain, such that one arm doesn't know what the other arm's doing.
But for now, all is good, again.
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Yep that sounds about right! What I found as a radio tech that some older USB devices seem to have a problem with M1+, including UBS! So Always tell people updating to M1 is rebuy USB devices that are at most 5 years old! Older chips seem to have a problem!
The bizarre thing is I literally only bought my Anker USB-A hub two months ago, specifically for the purpose of rigging-up the Qcons to my iMac. The only hubs I had in my wotnot drawer were old USB 1 hubs dating from the dawn of time, and I was concerned their bandwidth would be too slow for the dataflow to/from four control surfaces. Even after moving over to the Mac Studio earlier this month, everything continued to be fine until Logic Pro received a 'dot dot' update yesterday.
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No I just accepted it's the way it is.
So many variables at play. Technically, if I was going to reach-out to stakeholders in this fiasco, I should bring Icon (mfr's of the Qcon controllers) in to the ring as well. The tiny nugget of information I haven't yet mentioned is the master Qcon Pro X controller already has its own USB hub built into the back panel, into which you're supposed to be able to plug all three slave units, rather than use an external USB hub. But both myself and many other users online have noticed this causes the master unit to freeze intermittently, which in turn freezes all the slave units. Though bizarrely some people have zero issues, and this config works 100% fine for them. In fact this is so common that the actual user-manual for the master unit tells you to not use the built-in hub if you have problems with it. They've even taken a leaf out of Apple's book and brought out a $100 USB hub-come-power-supply you can buy, which will act as a USB hub and power supply for all four units, because they know the built-in hub mostly doesn't work...
So technically I could spend all day watching all three of them bounce the beachball of responsibility backwards and forwards to each other. Easiest just to accept it's all working (for now).
So many variables at play. Technically, if I was going to reach-out to stakeholders in this fiasco, I should bring Icon (mfr's of the Qcon controllers) in to the ring as well. The tiny nugget of information I haven't yet mentioned is the master Qcon Pro X controller already has its own USB hub built into the back panel, into which you're supposed to be able to plug all three slave units, rather than use an external USB hub. But both myself and many other users online have noticed this causes the master unit to freeze intermittently, which in turn freezes all the slave units. Though bizarrely some people have zero issues, and this config works 100% fine for them. In fact this is so common that the actual user-manual for the master unit tells you to not use the built-in hub if you have problems with it. They've even taken a leaf out of Apple's book and brought out a $100 USB hub-come-power-supply you can buy, which will act as a USB hub and power supply for all four units, because they know the built-in hub mostly doesn't work...
So technically I could spend all day watching all three of them bounce the beachball of responsibility backwards and forwards to each other. Easiest just to accept it's all working (for now).
That 's the problem though, if more people complain roughly the same thing to Apple Feedback they actually try to fix it, they can't read every post on every three all the time!
So...the saga continues.
Turned on the computer arriving home from work today...no Qcon control surfaces, as in no sign of them in Logic and no sign of them in Midi Setup. Pulled two of them off the desk to get to the hub behind that they're plugged into: no LED on it. Surely the USB-C socket cannot have failed on the back of the Studio? 45 minutes of faffing ensued where I discovered the USB-C hub I'm using is only detected by the Mac Studio if you plug it into computer with nothing connected to it, then you have to plug the control surfaces into it one by one.
We have a phrase for this in England: it's called 'taking the p*ss'. Four weeks ago I was trundling-along with a prehistoric 2011 iMac and everything was running swimmingly, now I'm plagued with hardware-compatibility problems left right and centre. Even on day one I had to jump through hoops to get a picture on the monitor because HDMI->HDMI was a big fat no.
I'm seriously thinking that for my comparatively-specialist needs I should have given it a couple of years before investing in an M-series machine (to give time for all the hardware, firmware and third-party accessories to 'bed in') and instead bought myself a fairly-pimped new 27" Intel 5K iMac before they were discontinued. It's fortunate that I don't do all this for a living, it's just my so-called-relaxing hobby. But I can see why those who do stuff like this for a living tend to keep hold of kit that just works for a very, very long time, and are very wary of change, because they literally cannot afford to be cocking around doing things like this.
I'll have to see what other solutions I can come up with, because I'm not faffing like this every day, or every time I need to reboot the computer for some reason, or after I power-off the Qcon controllers. It's like launching Thunderbird 3 just trying to get everything to work.
Turned on the computer arriving home from work today...no Qcon control surfaces, as in no sign of them in Logic and no sign of them in Midi Setup. Pulled two of them off the desk to get to the hub behind that they're plugged into: no LED on it. Surely the USB-C socket cannot have failed on the back of the Studio? 45 minutes of faffing ensued where I discovered the USB-C hub I'm using is only detected by the Mac Studio if you plug it into computer with nothing connected to it, then you have to plug the control surfaces into it one by one.
We have a phrase for this in England: it's called 'taking the p*ss'. Four weeks ago I was trundling-along with a prehistoric 2011 iMac and everything was running swimmingly, now I'm plagued with hardware-compatibility problems left right and centre. Even on day one I had to jump through hoops to get a picture on the monitor because HDMI->HDMI was a big fat no.
I'm seriously thinking that for my comparatively-specialist needs I should have given it a couple of years before investing in an M-series machine (to give time for all the hardware, firmware and third-party accessories to 'bed in') and instead bought myself a fairly-pimped new 27" Intel 5K iMac before they were discontinued. It's fortunate that I don't do all this for a living, it's just my so-called-relaxing hobby. But I can see why those who do stuff like this for a living tend to keep hold of kit that just works for a very, very long time, and are very wary of change, because they literally cannot afford to be cocking around doing things like this.
I'll have to see what other solutions I can come up with, because I'm not faffing like this every day, or every time I need to reboot the computer for some reason, or after I power-off the Qcon controllers. It's like launching Thunderbird 3 just trying to get everything to work.
With the Thunderbolt 4 get a Thunderbolt 4 hub like the CalaDigit Thunderbolt 4 Hub or another Thunderbolt 4 vendor this way you see if that helps!
I don't think this is a dock/hub problem. I think this is an issue with Logic 10.7.4. Stupidly I upgraded without making a backup of 10.7.3 first. I have asked on the official Apple Logic Pro support forum where I can source a legit M1 version of 10.7.3. Click on Logic Pro in the app store and there is no option to download older versions unless I'm being blind. I am not hopeful.
My Plan B is I have two sons at University who are both using Logic on their M1 MBAs for their degree in music technology, I am hoping at least one of them has been too busy to upgrade and can send me 10.7.3 via a file transfer website.
Ok so I managed to source a legit version of Logic 10.7.3 from one of my sons at University.
It made zero difference, even though this whole fiasco only began after I updated from 10.7.3 to 10.7.4.
With the four control surfaces plugged into a passive dock - literally any dock, USB-A or USB-C, the Studio will not recognise them unless you unplug all of them from the dock, plug the dock in empty, then plug them back into the dock one by one. It's as though the Studio does not 'see' the dock if there are devices plugged into it (the dock): you have to plug the dock in empty, then plug the devices in.
I can plug any one of the Icon controllers directly into one of the Studio's USB-A sockets and it is instantly recognised.
Looks like a powered dock is going to have to be on my shopping list.
It made zero difference, even though this whole fiasco only began after I updated from 10.7.3 to 10.7.4.
With the four control surfaces plugged into a passive dock - literally any dock, USB-A or USB-C, the Studio will not recognise them unless you unplug all of them from the dock, plug the dock in empty, then plug them back into the dock one by one. It's as though the Studio does not 'see' the dock if there are devices plugged into it (the dock): you have to plug the dock in empty, then plug the devices in.
I can plug any one of the Icon controllers directly into one of the Studio's USB-A sockets and it is instantly recognised.
Looks like a powered dock is going to have to be on my shopping list.
I think I had a bit of a breakthrough by remembering that my HP G5 dock also has four USB-A sockets on it and one USB-C socket. I had to bring it into service to get a picture on my Samsung monitor when I first got the Mac Studio because HDMI->HDMI gave me a blank screen. The G5 dock connects to host via USB-C and has a DisplayPort output which bypasses whatever protocol-conflicts were preventing the Mac Studio from talking to my Samsung monitor. I hadn't thought of using the G5's sockets before because it's buried out of sight.
Here's how I finally got everything working:
HP G5 dock: 4x USB-A sockets occupied by the four Icon controllers; USB-C cable out to the Mac Studio; DisplayPort out to the Samsung LU28R550UQR 4K monitor; USB-C socket occupied by a passive four-port Anker USB 3 hub hosting my Arturia KeyStep midi controller, Arturia KeyLab 88 midi controller, USB DVD-RW drive, and a third-party lightning-dock for my iPhone (charge & sync).
Mac Studio: 1x USB-A socket connected to an extension cable leading down to the RH cheek of my desk to host any random USB-A peripherals used by myself or clients, e.g. memory-sticks, iPods and Android phones; 1x USB-A socket connected to a passive Anker USB 3 hub hosting Audio-Technica AT2020USB microphone, Apple A1048 keyboard, Magic Trackpad 2 (permanently wired) and a cheap third-party mouse (permanently wired); 1x USB-C socket connected to my Motu M4 audio interface; 1x USB-C socket connected to the HP G5 dock.
Still to come: USB-C 4TB HDD, which I'll plug into another USB-C socket on the Mac Studio to use as a Time Machine.
Touch wood, that all seems to work, providing I turn-on the HP G5 dock before turning-on the Mac Studio. Do it the wrong way round = Mac Studio fails to see anything connected to the G5 hub, including the monitor.
Here's how I finally got everything working:
HP G5 dock: 4x USB-A sockets occupied by the four Icon controllers; USB-C cable out to the Mac Studio; DisplayPort out to the Samsung LU28R550UQR 4K monitor; USB-C socket occupied by a passive four-port Anker USB 3 hub hosting my Arturia KeyStep midi controller, Arturia KeyLab 88 midi controller, USB DVD-RW drive, and a third-party lightning-dock for my iPhone (charge & sync).
Mac Studio: 1x USB-A socket connected to an extension cable leading down to the RH cheek of my desk to host any random USB-A peripherals used by myself or clients, e.g. memory-sticks, iPods and Android phones; 1x USB-A socket connected to a passive Anker USB 3 hub hosting Audio-Technica AT2020USB microphone, Apple A1048 keyboard, Magic Trackpad 2 (permanently wired) and a cheap third-party mouse (permanently wired); 1x USB-C socket connected to my Motu M4 audio interface; 1x USB-C socket connected to the HP G5 dock.
Still to come: USB-C 4TB HDD, which I'll plug into another USB-C socket on the Mac Studio to use as a Time Machine.
Touch wood, that all seems to work, providing I turn-on the HP G5 dock before turning-on the Mac Studio. Do it the wrong way round = Mac Studio fails to see anything connected to the G5 hub, including the monitor.
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My home studio is complete (less the 4TB HDD I will use as a Time Machine...waiting for it to be delivered from Amazon on Wednesday):
Ok a slight update for any owners of Icon QCon Pro X and XS control surfaces who so far like me have been tearing their hair out trying to get their control surfaces to work reliably with their Mac M1 Pro, M1 Max or M1 Ultra computers running Logic Pro (zero issues for regular M1 users).
I dropped the cash on an Icon OneHub several weeks ago, and it arrived yesterday. The OneHub is both a 3A power supply which can power all four units instead of the four separate PSUs, and a four-port USB 3 hub, to which a Pro X master controller and three XS slave controllers can be connected. Plugging the OneHub into one of my Studio Max’s USB A sockets and connecting the powerleads and USB cables from it to all all four QCon devices, the OneHub seems to have completely solved my issues of the units freezing and losing connection to the computer, which was just about an everyday occurrence when they were connected to the computer via either a regular passive USB A or USB C hub, or via the master unit's built-in USB A hub.
Last night I tried a variety of Logic projects of between 10 and 50 tracks over a period of several hours and everything has fully worked as it should.
M1 MBA and MPB users looking to adopt this solution will still need to use some kind of dongle or adaptor to connect the OneHub to their computers, because the OneHub only comes with a USB A to USB B Type 3 cable (see image below). I am unsure if you can source a USB C to USB B Type 3 cable? Though technically you don't need to use this hub at all because these control surfaces work just fine with your machines: just use any random USB C hub with four USB A ports that you probably have floating around your bag of wires (we all have a bag of wires, right?).
With computers, things can change by the hour, so I’ll give it a few days before ripping out all four disconnected original PSUs from behind the units and calling it a success. But so far I am cautiously positive.
I dropped the cash on an Icon OneHub several weeks ago, and it arrived yesterday. The OneHub is both a 3A power supply which can power all four units instead of the four separate PSUs, and a four-port USB 3 hub, to which a Pro X master controller and three XS slave controllers can be connected. Plugging the OneHub into one of my Studio Max’s USB A sockets and connecting the powerleads and USB cables from it to all all four QCon devices, the OneHub seems to have completely solved my issues of the units freezing and losing connection to the computer, which was just about an everyday occurrence when they were connected to the computer via either a regular passive USB A or USB C hub, or via the master unit's built-in USB A hub.
Last night I tried a variety of Logic projects of between 10 and 50 tracks over a period of several hours and everything has fully worked as it should.
M1 MBA and MPB users looking to adopt this solution will still need to use some kind of dongle or adaptor to connect the OneHub to their computers, because the OneHub only comes with a USB A to USB B Type 3 cable (see image below). I am unsure if you can source a USB C to USB B Type 3 cable? Though technically you don't need to use this hub at all because these control surfaces work just fine with your machines: just use any random USB C hub with four USB A ports that you probably have floating around your bag of wires (we all have a bag of wires, right?).
With computers, things can change by the hour, so I’ll give it a few days before ripping out all four disconnected original PSUs from behind the units and calling it a success. But so far I am cautiously positive.
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Not sure if anyone's still following this blog any more, but I suppose if nothing else this is a personal record.
Yesterday (30th May) on a damp and dreary day off from work I decided to shuffle the studio around, firstly because of low sunlight coming through the window in the evening making it difficult to view the screen, and secondly because of the distance between me and the screen. I solved both of these issues by moving the desk to the adjacent wall (basically swapping over my desk and my Technics workstation keyboard) and fitting my monitor with a gas-sprung monitor-arm.
An expected complication is I had to cut a notch in the top shelf so that I could continue to push it back far enough to allow sufficient space for the Icon control surfaces:
Rare BTS photo of all the cables, PSUs and docks in place before bringing in the hardware. It looked way worse than this until I bought my Icon One Hub which replaced all the separate PSUs for the control surfaces with one PSU.
I use foldback clips, clipped to the back of the upper shelf, to hold the cables in place for the speakers and the computer:
Done, after about 5 hours all-in:
Being able to easily lower the monitor to a better level is game changing when I'm on SM, writing on forums, watching YouTube, or anything basically not involving the control surfaces:
Thanks for reading, if anyone actually still is.
Yesterday (30th May) on a damp and dreary day off from work I decided to shuffle the studio around, firstly because of low sunlight coming through the window in the evening making it difficult to view the screen, and secondly because of the distance between me and the screen. I solved both of these issues by moving the desk to the adjacent wall (basically swapping over my desk and my Technics workstation keyboard) and fitting my monitor with a gas-sprung monitor-arm.
An expected complication is I had to cut a notch in the top shelf so that I could continue to push it back far enough to allow sufficient space for the Icon control surfaces:
Rare BTS photo of all the cables, PSUs and docks in place before bringing in the hardware. It looked way worse than this until I bought my Icon One Hub which replaced all the separate PSUs for the control surfaces with one PSU.
I use foldback clips, clipped to the back of the upper shelf, to hold the cables in place for the speakers and the computer:
Done, after about 5 hours all-in:
Being able to easily lower the monitor to a better level is game changing when I'm on SM, writing on forums, watching YouTube, or anything basically not involving the control surfaces:
Thanks for reading, if anyone actually still is.
Only just discovered this thread. Beautiful setup and great account of the teething problems (and subsequent resolution) you had with your MS early on! Have put your thread on 'Watch'. Keep it coming as and when you can!
It's definitely been a trial by fire. From 2011 (first Mac) to this point (five Macs later), my experience of running my home studio on a Mac vs Windows has been that you plug something into a Mac and it just works. That ended in April when I bought my Mac Studio, largely due to some hardware and software being strangely incompatible with Pro, Max and Ultra M1 chips, even though users of the 'OG' M1 had not reported any widespread compatibility issues with the same hardware/apps. Kind of blows away Tim Cook's message telling us that software and hardware will view all M1 SoC configurations as basically the same chip...
Hopefully I've got there now. I do have occasional issues with Logic Pro sending inconsistent real-time updates to my third Icon XS extender, but this is provable to be a Logic Pro issue. In fact there are various bugs relating to the setting up of, and operation of, external control surfaces in Logic Pro 10.7.4 which definitely were not present on the version of Logic (10.4.8) I was brickwalled to on my High Sierra iMac. It's mega annoying when they bring out new versions of apps which break something that worked perfectly on a previous version. I can't say for sure when it actually broke, because I haven't used any version of Logic in-between.
This looks so much more spacious and comfortable to work in..........👍
Do you mean a USB 3 cable with a type B connector on one end and USB-C on the other like the one in the picture? I don't know the brand of this particular one, but looks like you can a similar one on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Type-C-USB-C-Black/dp/B00UXKTJE0?th=1
Definitely is.
I was working on a mix late last night and decided I'd take another photo of the place while it was lit just by a couple of spot lamps and it looked warm and cosy. Retrospect is a wonderful thing, I should probably have shut the curtains for a better shot, but ah well.
I hope the Logic Pro issues are resolved quick smart for you and for those also engaged in your line of work! Nothing worse (I mean there are, but you know what I mean) than paying a pretty penny for a machine only to hit roadblocks along the way which should probably have been squared away in a timely manner.
I'm lucky really that this is a hobby for me and not my job. Sometimes I think apps and OS's in general are getting so complex now that one arm on their dev team doesn't know what the other arm is doing. The basic 'clarity of vision' concerning exactly what problem they set out to solve with 'Version 1.0' of their software has been compromised by megabytes and megabytes of bolt-on parts, whose interoperability with each other hasn't, and probably cannot be, fully tested in all possible permutations. The result is you kind of end up with an uncontrollable monster.
Hi @MajorFubar this is a brilliant walkthrough of the nuts and bolts of a music setup. I'm nowhere near at this level, but it's a great eye opener for the practicalities - so thanks for writing it up. Like yourself, I have also heard that some of the software issues with the move to M1 are affecting M1 Pro/Max etc, but not M1 standard. For example, Native Instruments now say their stuff works in Rosetta 2 on M1 only, but they also call out M1 Pro/Max etc as unsupported. I saw another post of yours where you were contemplating a 2TB 16GB Mac Mini or a similar spec laptop, and here you're considering an Intel machine. If you didn't have the Studio now, would you still go for the Intel, or would you look to the M1 as a stopgap?