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jtblueberry

macrumors regular
Dec 20, 2007
111
0
Pismo Beach, CA
I use 2 5d's professionally for a few months now and they work flawlessly. I haven't used the Nikon so I can't really comment on that.

However, I can say I used a Canon 1Ds for 5 years that cost me $7500. I couldn't believe when the 5D came out...12mp with full frame sensor for less than half the price of my 1ds?! Then the price came waaay down. I bought 2 for $2200 each and haven't used the 1Ds since. Some people don't like full frame but I can't do my work without it so look into that.

Anyway, I think the 5d is probably still the best value on the market and the updated version is sure to cost closer to what the 5d cost when it came out ($3200 I think). If you really feel you need an upgrade from your rebel, this is the smallest jump you should make. I do miss the tank-like body of my 1d's.

A big thing to consider is what kind of lenses you have and/or want. Upgrading your glass may make more sense. Get a good 2.8 with image stabilization. It's easy to spend $3000 on a couple good lenses. As someone else said, you'll probably upgrade your camera many more times but your lenses should last much longer. Lenses are a big argument for going with canon. I have guided both my parents and my wife's parents the same way. They have 40d's with $2000 lenses on them.

Hope the info helps,
Cheers

Why are you upgrading? Do you print your images? What kind of work do you do?
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Feb 17, 2003
3,568
226
with Hamburglar.
Do you have friends with dSLRS? If so, what do they shoot? Having a shooting buddy with the same brand of camera as you have can be a lot of fun - you can coordinate lens purchases and get access to a wider variety of lenses faster than if you're purchasing alone.

Fantastic advice, and something that should be mentioned here more often. Friends with backup bodies (wedding emergencies!) and other lenses for joint shoots is a ton of fun. And, you can try their stuff out first and see what you like.

Just like in life, our bodies are expendable. And, someone is always going to have a younger, more-awesome body.
 

seattle

macrumors 6502
Original poster
May 15, 2007
494
2
I use 2 5d's professionally for a few months now and they work flawlessly. I haven't used the Nikon so I can't really comment on that.

However, I can say I used a Canon 1Ds for 5 years that cost me $7500. I couldn't believe when the 5D came out...12mp with full frame sensor for less than half the price of my 1ds?! Then the price came waaay down. I bought 2 for $2200 each and haven't used the 1Ds since. Some people don't like full frame but I can't do my work without it so look into that.

Anyway, I think the 5d is probably still the best value on the market and the updated version is sure to cost closer to what the 5d cost when it came out ($3200 I think). If you really feel you need an upgrade from your rebel, this is the smallest jump you should make. I do miss the tank-like body of my 1d's.

A big thing to consider is what kind of lenses you have and/or want. Upgrading your glass may make more sense. Get a good 2.8 with image stabilization. It's easy to spend $3000 on a couple good lenses. As someone else said, you'll probably upgrade your camera many more times but your lenses should last much longer. Lenses are a big argument for going with canon. I have guided both my parents and my wife's parents the same way. They have 40d's with $2000 lenses on them.

Hope the info helps,
Cheers

Why are you upgrading? Do you print your images? What kind of work do you do?


Thanks for the advice. I do not need to upgrade but it is my birthday soon and my wife wanted to get me a new camera. I do not print the images and normally view them on my computers or through my TiVos or my Apple TV. I am a stay at home dad. I also post some pictures on my websites.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Thanks for the advice. I do not need to upgrade but it is my birthday soon and my wife wanted to get me a new camera. I do not print the images and normally view them on my computers or through my TiVos or my Apple TV. I am a stay at home dad. I also post some pictures on my websites.

Either body is seriously a waste under those conditions. If you're taking pictures of your kid(s) then a new fast lens will probably do you significantly better in terms of images you're not getting now. You're simply not going to get much benefit from increased resolution viewing on a TV screen or monitor.

The other thing to ponder is a good lighting setup if you want to do portraits. You can spend more time on lighting, which is more interesting than on the new buttons on a new body. Three strobes some backgrounds and some modifiers and a sync setup for the Rebel might be interesting.
 

jtblueberry

macrumors regular
Dec 20, 2007
111
0
Pismo Beach, CA
I would definitely invest in some other photography tools in your situation. I don't think you'd see any benefit in upgrading your camera body. Do you have a good on camera flash (canon makes great ones...get the best available)? Better lenses would be a great choice (look at grimace's tag and get his lenses for example). How about Adobe Lightroom or Apple Aperture? You could start using RAW images if you haven't...just an idea.
I would stick with the system you have and build on it...maybe you can get the 5d replacement next year:D
Have Fun!
 

law guy

macrumors 6502a
Jan 17, 2003
997
0
Western Massachusetts
Thanks for the advice. I do not need to upgrade but it is my birthday soon and my wife wanted to get me a new camera. I do not print the images and normally view them on my computers or through my TiVos or my Apple TV. I am a stay at home dad. I also post some pictures on my websites.

I'm not recommending Canon over Nikon or vice versa, but I'm not recommending the D300 or 5D in any event.

For what you describe and your apparent budget, I think you'd be very well served by a Canon 40D and the following two lenses: a 24-105 f4 L IS and a 70-200 f4 L IS - all together a bit over $3,000. I think you'll enjoy using the 40D more than the Rebel - a little larger with better ergonomics overall in my opinion, the command wheel is a better interface, top info window.

I think you'd keep the 24-105 (a wonderful, wonderful lens, great color, contrast, sharp) on your camera most of the time. For taking pictures of pictures of kids, I find that a lot of compelling shots are often from a few feet away and between 70 to 105 mm with a wide open aperture. The f4 is enough to give a nice blur to the background and the range captures faces very well. The 24 is enough of a wide on the 1.6x sensor to take in more - e.g. siblings playing together and if needed you can zoom a bit with your feet. The longer end is enough to get some nice candids standing a bit farther back. The IS will help you get sharp photos at slower shutter speeds by overcoming camera shake. I find this so helpful in both natural light and with flash. Why with flash - I think you'll find that using the built-in flash or a speedlight in Av (aperture priority) mode will give you results that you'll be very pleased with. In that mode, the camera default is to fire enough of a flash to fill in the subjects with a soft light (in other words, it won't light the subject brightly and use a fast shutter speed which will make the background appear darker). The IS is nice because I find that having the flash balance with existing in-door light will often set a fairly slow shutter speed - the other day I shot with a flash for fill at ISO 1200 at f4 under in-door lighting. In Av mode, the camera set a shutter speed of 1/40th at 60mm. To look at the photo, the casual observer wouldn't think it was a flash photo because the lighting is relatively even with no bright / dark areas - the shutter speed was slow enough to allow a correct exposure for the ambient light of the background / surrounding area. The IS kept the frame sharp at the show shutter speed which likely would have blurred a bit otherwise as the shot was handheld. I like the bokeh (blur) of the 24-70 f2.8 L more and it is faster, but I like the 24-105 more over all for its range and the IS, which works so well in the in-door fill flash setting that I describe due to the slower shutter speeds. (You might find the following sites helpful for Canon lens reviews: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-Zoom-Lens-Reviews.aspx - I've put the link for the zoom lenses, but there is also a separate page covering primes; You might also like the reviews / observations on the Luminous Landscape site http://www.luminous-landscape.com [which has all sorts of fantastic information - including a great video tutorial on light room and another on color management] - http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/#c; and also of interest: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/nikon-d3-d300.shtml)

I recommend the 70-200 f4 L IS for similar reason - the range will make shooting unobtrusive candids possible and you can also use it to get some nice face-filling frames. You'll also find such a lens really useful for your kids outdoor activities (e.g. soccer games). If your children do a lot of in-door activity - e.g. gymnastics or ballet, you might like the higher motion stopping ability of the 70-200 f2.8 L IS more. It's around $500 more. The down side is that it is a bit heavier. Again, the IS will help tremendously in overcoming camera shake when shooting hand held.

With that set-up you'd have a stay-at-home dad set-up that would be simply fantastic. Resist the temptation to shoot in the 'green box' mode. You'll get so much more out of the camera if you shoot in aperture priority (Av), Shutter Priority (Tv) (or Manual) mode. I am assuming a lot in this response and one of those assumptions is that you shot JPEG or if you shot RAW that you shoot RAW and JPEG and usually use the JPEG images. Shooting Av, Tv, or manual mode will apply the in-camera sharpening, color settings, etc. under your "Picture Styles", is more intelligent with the flash, and gives you more control - Av - you set the aperture and it sets the shutter (when you want to blur the background or make sure everything from front to the horizon is in focus) and vice versa for Tv when you want to stop the drops of water from the hose flying through the air or that mid-air shot during dance, gymnastics, soccer practice. You'll like those results more than the green box output.

You may understand much of this, and my apologies if so. I'm really just trying to set out my rationale for suggesting the 40D-range body and two very good lens options for your described needs.

On the Nikon side, I think a D300 would be a bit of overkill but not a bad choice (get in there and experiment with the in-camera JPEG settings - from the reviews, it seems like you might want to up the sharpening and would likely want to add a bit on the color saturation side - experiment, don't assume that the camera comes set up to your liking, esp. with something like a D300, which is a body Nikon expects you tweak from what may be a bland starting point [again assuming you shoot JPEGs]). Truthfully, a D80 comes to mind as a better option for you. On the Nikon side, if you were to get either body, I would get a 18-200 VR lens. The build is not as robust as the L lenses, but it is very versatile and very well reviewed. You'd get the VR - Nikon's implementation of what Canon calls IS (described above) - which I think is so very, very useful for the reasons stated above. The lens is a bit slower and not a constant aperture across its entire range, but it's not bad at all. Or, you could get either of those bodies with Nikon's excellent 70-200 f2.8 VR (again, your posts sound like budget is not a big issue) and the new 18-85 f3.5 to 5.6 DX VR lens on the wide side. I haven't read great things about the 24-120 VR, but folks generally note that it's "fine" (see the http://www.bythom.com review). (A side note, if you were going to get the D300, I note that BH has a nice package of that body with the generally well-reviewed 70-300 VR for around $2100).

At any rate - good luck. You'll have a fantastic set up either way. It's not like these sets ups would be limiting to photography as serious interest either. I've seen plenty of photos from 20D bodies in the pages of National Geographic over the past few years and that body is less "advanced" than anything recommended above. Don't fret too much. These things can drive you crazy.
 

ChrisA

macrumors G5
Jan 5, 2006
12,831
2,034
Redondo Beach, California
...the 5D has much better image quality than the D300. It's a full frame and has brilliant....

No one buys a Canon or Nikon DSLR solely on image quality. If image quality was your prime concern you'd be shooting medium format film. If you needed digital and your prime concern as image quality you'd be shooting a H3DII-39

But there are other considerations like eating and car payments so we compromise and buy Nikon or Canon gear.

The thing I notice that's wrong here is that some total beginner is considering such an expensive camera. Kind of a waste of money. A D80 would be better use of funds. These high end camera become "old" so fast it will need to be replaced in five years.
 

djbahdow01

macrumors 6502a
Jan 19, 2004
569
0
Northeast, CT
The D300 is a magnesium body with weather sealing, the 5D supposedly doesn't have any of that, in fact when I tested one it felt a little cheap, not as cheap as the Rebels but still somewhat cheap.

Some do prefer the Canon Ergonomics to Nikon and vice-versa. With the OP starting in Canon it would probably be best to stay with Canon(although I love my D300). I have shot with both they are all great cameras. Either way the OP goes he will be happy.

Starting with the Rebel, I would look into the 40D or 5D unless you can afford to change systems. Like others have said go to a store an test them out, it is well worth it and why I started with Nikon with the D70 instead of the rebel, it just felt right.
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
Honestly.... and I do mean honestly, from the bottom of my heart, if the OP is asking which one and it's between the 5D and D300 then the OP really just needs to ask themselves, FX or DX.

The IQ standard has been raised with the D300 but the 5D is still right there with the FX sensor. I think the OP needs to just decide if they want to remain in the 35MM range, or go to the 1.5x crop of DX. Then the choice can be a lot easier.

Thanks for the advice. I do not need to upgrade but it is my birthday soon and my wife wanted to get me a new camera. I do not print the images and normally view them on my computers or through my TiVos or my Apple TV. I am a stay at home dad. I also post some pictures on my websites.

Nevermind. From this comment I am sure that you could use either the 40D or the D300, then grab some good glass and strobes.
 

Kebabselector

macrumors 68030
May 25, 2007
2,990
1,641
Birmingham, UK
The D300 is a magnesium body with weather sealing, the 5D supposedly doesn't have any of that, in fact when I tested one it felt a little cheap, not as cheap as the Rebels but still somewhat cheap.

Both the 5D and D300 have magnesium alloy bodies. O.k the D300 is weather sealed. But you're comparing cameras that are 2 years different in development.

Felt cheap? just another personal expression isn't it?

Ken Rockwell said:
(note: only the D300 does ISO 6,400 directly. I pushed the others to ISO 6,400 in Photoshop)

So he makes up an image for all other cameras at 6400 (though the D300 looks great). This would indicate to me that the great Ken talks bollocks.
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination

Neither does anyone else for that matter. Dpreivew, Thom Hogan (the Nikon guru like no other), Rob Galbraith, and many other sites.

The biggest problem I have with Ken, is that he doesn't always have his facts straight, and he talks a good game.

And the D3 does ISO 6400 while the D300 uses BOOST to get that high, albeit the noise is none existent.

Ken Rockwell said:
"The D300 ships with the idiot beep ON. Please turn it off. Not only is it annoying, but it bothers everyone else around you."

"You know the D300 is an amateur camera because the annoying moron BEEP is ON by default. In the professional D3, the annoy-everyone beep is off by default."

I know plenty of photogs, myself included, that set the beep to loud because we shoot in very LOUD places that get very distracting. Besides... there are times when you want to know if your camera has acquired focus or not without looking through the view finder.

Also, no self respecting professional will ever say that the D300 is an amateur camera or any camera for that matter, even in jest. I am surprised at the surprising amount of journalist grabbing Canon G9s and Canon flash units for their light editorial work... when they don't need the build and versatility of the D2xs, they grab a G9 and produce amazing work... because they are PROFESSIONALS.

These statements just weren't needed on his site.
 

Grimace

macrumors 68040
Feb 17, 2003
3,568
226
with Hamburglar.
For non-sports shooting, I would still take a 5D over a D300, even though the former is two years older. The D3 full frame probably bests the 5D, although I am only assuming this; I have only played around with the D80 and D300 so far.

Lenses, lenses, lenses! FAR more important - and they don't lose value very much. Buy a lens family, and exchange the body every 3-5 years.
 

Nukey

macrumors member
Aug 5, 2007
41
0
Neither does anyone else for that matter. Dpreivew, Thom Hogan (the Nikon guru like no other), Rob Galbraith, and many other sites.

The biggest problem I have with Ken, is that he doesn't always have his facts straight, and he talks a good game.

And the D3 does ISO 6400 while the D300 uses BOOST to get that high, albeit the noise is none existent.

I will agree with you that he is very opinionated. I posted his image test because it seemed to have a good assortment of cameras and was easy to find on google :) I assume that he does the tests correctly, and that what he thinks of the cameras or the brands is irrelevant.

As for the beep, I think it's a matter of preference and is not an "idiot beep".
 

Ryox

macrumors 6502a
Oct 27, 2007
546
21
UK
Well their two totally different cameras.
5D has a full frame sensor, the D300 has a 1.5x crop.
Do you need a full frame?
If yes: 5D
If no: D300 or even the 40D

I have a 5D, and I used it regularly before my 1DsMkIII. Its much better than a crop frame body at Low light situations. I don't know how it compares to the D300 but against my 40D its a lot better.
I prefer full frame bodies since I think they have much less limitations when it comes to wide angles, since my 16-35 is actually very wide.
And the 5D replacement is in the works somewhere so it might be worth holding out for that.
Otherwise the D300 is an excellent camera. Its all down to if you really need a full frame body.
There are ultra wide lenses that are for crop frame bodies such as the EF-S 10-22 that give you wide angles on crops but Its just not the same as an L 2.8 Lens to me.
 

seany916

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2006
470
0
Southern California
law guy's recommendations for lenses are great and will serve you well later if you decide to upgrade a body (the 5D replacement should be awesome!).

I would recommend you spend a bit more and go 2.8 over 4. You won't regret it in the long run.
 

Padaung

macrumors 6502
Jan 22, 2007
470
104
UK
Ho hum, so much of this is so familier to read. BMW v Mercedes, Mac v Windows etc...

Seriouly though, to the OP, do you need such a camera (Canon or Nikon)? It doesn't sound as if you really need such a sophisticated piece of kit as both the cameras you mention. As many have said, get something cheaper, some good lenses, a flash and bag and then spend any change on a photography and Photoshop course. I'm sure that would help you get more out of your photography than one expensive camera body.

A British photographer called Bert Hardy took one of his most iconic photos using nothing more than a box brownie in an excercise to prove expensive cameras are not required to take great photos, they just help...it is the person behind the camera that matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownie_(camera)
and the photo can be seen here:
http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?mid=2638684&epmid=3&partner=Google

The photo is so good it even makes Blackpool look quite nice!!!

PS Just for the sake of it, I use a Nikon because I have never used a Canon (d)SLR which means they feel weird in my hands and I don't know what all the odd looking icons mean ;)
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,100
930
In my imagination
I will agree with you that he is very opinionated. I posted his image test because it seemed to have a good assortment of cameras and was easy to find on google :) I assume that he does the tests correctly, and that what he thinks of the cameras or the brands is irrelevant.

As for the beep, I think it's a matter of preference and is not an "idiot beep".

I agree. I am a bit particular about my information no matter where i get it. If one reviewer does seem to be more opinionated than another then the one that remains impartial gets my respect. I know that Ken can look beyond the beep and his personal preferences.
 

seany916

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2006
470
0
Southern California
PS Just for the sake of it, I use a Nikon because I have never used a Canon (d)SLR which means they feel weird in my hands and I don't know what all the odd looking icons mean ;)[/QUOTE]


I shoot Nikon as well. Borrow a 5D and spend a few hours with it (a manual might have been useful) and you'd be surprised how easy a transition it is. Same concepts; just changing settings is slightly different. Might be a bit slower at first, but you'll adjust quickly.

May run dual setups if the 5D replacement is what I expect it to be. Can always sell off anything you don't like/doesn't work for you.
 

seany916

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2006
470
0
Southern California
Oh, yeah. I love Ken Rockwell.

He's opinionated and speaks his mind. I like that. Like him or dislike him, he is who he is.

I don't like his hyper-saturated color preference, but he knows what he likes and I'm sure many people appreciate his time and effort in posting his opinions. No one is forcing anyone to follow his advice. But it is there nevertheless if someone feels they need it.

His tests seem somewhat "backyard", but he takes the time to do them and shares his results. Real world or jackass, it's still time and work.

Thanks Ken.

And no, I don't want to shoot a D40 with 18-200 VR lens. :rolleyes:
 

Hmac

macrumors 68020
May 30, 2007
2,134
4
Midwest USA
The 5D is a good camera, and comparable to the D300. I doubt there are any reliability differences between the two. Nikon ergonomics are certainly superior to Canon's, but both companies make excellent digital SLRs.

Between the 5D and D300, I'd get the D300 because it's newer and more recent technology. Alternatively, you could wait for the 5D Mk II, which would come up to par or better with the Nikon (at least until the D400, or maybe the D300s, comes out). And the cycle repeats.
 

Padaung

macrumors 6502
Jan 22, 2007
470
104
UK
PS Just for the sake of it, I use a Nikon because I have never used a Canon (d)SLR which means they feel weird in my hands and I don't know what all the odd looking icons mean ;)


I shoot Nikon as well. Borrow a 5D and spend a few hours with it (a manual might have been useful) and you'd be surprised how easy a transition it is. Same concepts; just changing settings is slightly different. Might be a bit slower at first, but you'll adjust quickly.

May run dual setups if the 5D replacement is what I expect it to be. Can always sell off anything you don't like/doesn't work for you.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure you're right. A colleague did the whole transition from Nikon (D2X) to Canon (5D) a couple of years ago and had no problems once he had delved into the manual and hasn't looked back. Financially speaking, to switch systems I think you need to be sure the other make of camera really offers you an advantage - the change cost him a pretty penny...
 

seany916

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2006
470
0
Southern California
Paduang,

sorry about that.

don't know how it happened (it's my post above)

Please know that I DID NOT hack your account.

Server error.

p.s.- that's someone else's quote.

see the thread above.
I HAVE used Canon before and have NO problems with Canon.
 
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