New EU Law Could Force Apple to Allow Other App Stores, Sideloading, and iMessage Interoperability

[AppliedMicro]

I'm no electrical engineer, but I have had to toss dozens of Lightning cables and no USB cables because the contacts are burned out

No idea what you‘ve experienced or what you’re talking about. Well… unless you‘ve managed an enterprise fleet of hundreds or thousands of iPhones.

And I‘m saying this as someone who worked for years at an authorised service provider. The number of „fried“ or burned cables was minuscule compared to physical defects. And Lightning connection issues were relatively rare compared to USB-C connector failures.

By the EU's logic, stretched a little, anything/anyone that tries to separate people (or regulate trade) through membership or association is 'illegal' and should be regulated away.

According to the opponents of this regulation and their logic, a duopoly in software distribution ain‘t no problem at all.

I think that the 10 years before the App Store were awful! Smartphone apps were horrible and sold through the phone companies. You had to enter your credit card info all the time. Shareware and smaller software companies were spammed with fake download sites. Credit card leaks were regular. You didn't know what software was available or if it was any good if you found it.

I‘d argue apps were mostly horrible due to the lack of screen real estate, operating system and APIs - not because of their distribution model.

 

[BaldiMac]

No they can’t. iOS apps can only be sold at apple AppStore.

You moved the goalposts to iOS apps there. I never said that. And then there's the fact that apps can sell (for example) subscriptions through there own website and bypass the App Store.

Miltihoming means you must exist on multiple platforms to conduct a business. Example tinder isn’t looking for iOS users. But it’s a platform for people to find other people. iOS users, android users and windows users etc. removing iOS users makes the business worse.

I still have no idea what that has to do with what we are discussing.

There is, if you can side load apps or rather use other stores without apple’s consent apple can’t take a fee.

Again, I don't see anything in the law that prevents Apple from enforcing platform rules or fees. Feel free to link. I think it would be dangerous for the EU to mandate Apple run unsigned apps.

It means that this is targeted at developers not consumers.

Still don't know what you are talking about What is "it"?

Compared to steam, epic store, Amazon store, etc etc. it’s not reasonably.

15% is certainly reasonable compared to those stores which have similar fees.

Steam takes 30% but allow you to sell any game that is legal.
Epic store allows you to sell with custom in app solutions or alternative stores.

Microsoft takes 5% of applications that aren’t games if it’s on your own website.

They aren’t made up.

Epic store allows you to sell apps with your own payment system and keeping 100% of it. 12% if you use their payment system or 0% if you use your own.

Great. All numbers that show that 15% is reasonable compared to their competition.

 

[AppliedMicro]

No they can’t. iOS apps can only be sold at apple AppStore.

Well, maybe BaldiMac referred to multiple storefronts for Android, since you didn‘t explicitly limit your statement to iOS apps above.

But anyways… they aren’t strictly restricted to Apple’s App Store either.

If you’re a medium or large enterprise and corporation, you can very well run your own distribution of iOS apps for in-house use. Of course that only underlines the point made: Apple acts anticompetitively with regard to business-to-consumer sales.

 

[BaldiMac]

The think you seem to refuse to recognize is that both can exist at the same time.

No, they can't. Either all apps for the platform are available in one, curated store, or they're not.

There aren’t new middlemen. They are alternatives to apple.

Alternatives that are middlemen. Platform > middlemen > consumers.

And yes consumer’s aren’t the primary beneficiary, developers are. And we as consumers benefits if developers have it better.

You were so close to seeting the problem! Large developers are the primary beneficiaries! Consumers and small developers will see minimal benefit because there is minimal room to save.

But Epic will be a new middleman and take money from Apple! Why do I care?

More competition between service providers.

Why shouldn’t steam, epic store, Amazon store and Apple Store compete if that’s what users want?

Users don't want that. They already have the opportunity to compete on android devices that cover 80% of the global market and nobody cares!

 

[bn-7bc]

LOL, take note developers - you're paying 30% for your own protection. Just like the mob.

Yes and for those 30% the developet getc hosting and cc processing, and access to a store their potential costumers allready trust, and probably all ready has their oaiment details on file which makes that purchase hassle free , often no more that a touch id or face id verification away. Never underestimate the power of convinience. Is it worth it to the dewvs, well se will just have to see when/if sideloading oevomes a thing on Apples mobile devices

 

[BaldiMac]

I‘d argue apps were mostly horrible due to the lack of screen real estate, operating system and APIs - not because of their distribution model.

I'm assuming you are talking phone apps here. I'd argue that the distribution model was awful as well. Expensive, difficult, and for the most part limited to specific phones and carrier combinations.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Yes and for those 30% the developet getc hosting and cc processing, and access to a store their potential costumers allready trust, and probably all ready has their oaiment details on file which makes that purchase hassle free , often no more that a touch id or face id verification away. Never underestimate the power of convinience. Is it worth it to the dewvs, well se will just have to see when/if sideloading oevomes a thing on Apples mobile devices

Hosting costs next to nothing and payment processing costs 3% or less too (bit more if you use a full software licensing stack provided by someone else. And yes, more if your apps needs cloud hosting for user data).

If Apple’s App Store is so attractive, surely customers will continue buying from it and there’s little harm in allowing third-party downloads that almost no one will use.

 

[I7guy]

I think the EU should drop this idea if Apple agrees to perpetually take no commission for app sales, IAP, developer accounts, unwind iAds, and stop pre-installing their services apps (Music, TV, Fitness+).

This way Apple can decide whether profit or platform integrity is the thing they care about.

Apple has already decided. Platform integrity is important.

 

[AppliedMicro]

I'd argue that the distribution model was awful as well. Expensive, difficult, and for the most part limited to specific phones and carrier combinations.

The distribution was about as good or bad as third-party distribution on Mac OS X. Which hasn’t been as big an issue as some make it out to be. I‘ve bought a few dozen Mac apps over time and not once had an issue with stolen credit card data or payment fraud.

Restrictions to specific phones are, again, restrictions because of operating system/software - not distribution model.

 

[bn-7bc]

The EU crushed its own industries under crippling moronic regulations, and, having done that, now seeks to constantly rent-seek and crush American industries because they have nothing home-grown that can compete.

Look it's up to any non EU business ( US or otherwise) to decide if the potential revenue from one of the largest trading blocks in the world (which just hapoens to include on average some of the richest people) is worth having to compl with that trading blocks regulations, Just as any EU buisness has to comply with let's say US regs to gain Access tomthe US market, I fail to see the difference . What am I missing here? And yes those EU businesses will have to re-eveluate the US when/if new regs effecting them arrive on the cene

 

[I7guy]

Hosting costs next to nothing and payment processing costs 3% or less too (bit more if you use a full software licensing stack provided by someone else. And yes, more if your apps needs cloud hosting for user data).

If Apple’s App Store is so attractive, surely customers will continue buying from it and there’s little harm in allowing third-party downloads that almost no one will use.

Apples platform is attractive which is why the App Store revenues today are really good. Many Devs have decided let’s make money together. It’s true some devs got greedy, and today they are out in the cold.

Nowhere did anybody force devs to be a part of “let’s make money”. This new regulation will be a race to the bottom.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

No idea what you‘ve experienced or what you’re talking about. Well… unless you‘ve managed an enterprise fleet of hundreds or thousands of iPhones.

I've tossed dozens of Lightning cables with burned out contacts, and some have been Apple cables.

 

[bn-7bc]

Absolutely nobody uses iMessage in Europe. It will be amusing if Apple is considered a gatekeeper for messaging.

You all should also understand that EU’s proposed approach to interoperability for messaging and video calls is based on conversion gateways which *will break* E2E.

There is no way to preserve E2E and convert messages / video streams into another format.

Non-interoperability isn’t a consumer problem that needs solving. If EU decides what features are allowed, then all innovation will die. Look at email. It’s the same as it was in the 90s.

How does one make Apple’s iMessage apps work on, say, WhatsApp? You don’t. They will be banned.

On the other hand: if all messaging apps start to interoperate at a basic level I can dump WhatsApp etc. and use Apple’s stock messaging app for everything.

Easy (warning dialogs will be forbidden) sideloading will result in a massive influx of malware such as fake banking apps.

Especially on Android the consequences will be amazing.

Talk for yourself, last I chacked norway, Sweden and The Netherlands are all in Europe ant he latter 2 are allso EU members. I can count at least 10 people I know, including myself that use both iMessage and FaceTime. I know this is not statistically significant, but it non the less disproves your statement that "Absolutely nobody uses iMessage in Europe", so may I ask what whas the point in making such an obviously false statement?

 

[sdf]

Until the key apps you wish to use choose to exit the app store, leaving you with a dilemma of eschewing those apps or opening your device up.

(edited for typo)

Or the apps leave the platform entirely. If I currently had a paid app and found this allowed apps to be re-signed on an alternative store by someone else (which is likely) I would just pull the app.

 

[Jovian9]

Does this mean that the EU will be requiring the Playstation store, Xbox Marketplace, Nintendo store, etc. to also allow 3rd party companies to have their own video game/media stores on those devices since those are also closed systems?

 

[Mousse]

This forum wants Apple to operate like Android and yet still keep buying iPhones.

Actually, I am on Android.

Is it worth it to the dewvs, well se will just have to see when/if sideloading oevomes a thing on Apples mobile devices

It would be worth it to developers whose apps are banned from the AppStore because of the ridiculous wording, interpretation or knee jerkiness of Apple's policy. Stuff like emulators. Or apps that allow users to customized the look and feel of their phones. Or apps that adds functionality Apple feels is a threat ie firewall.

All I want is a firewall. If Apple gives me that, I'd shaddap about side loading, alternative app stores and jailbreaking.😗 Google wouldn't give me a firewall either.😠 At least they don't block my ablility to install one.

 

[BaldiMac]

All I want is a firewall. If Apple gives me that, I'd shaddap about side loading, alternative app stores and jailbreaking.😗 Google wouldn't give me a firewall either.😠 At least they don't block my ablility to install one.

I've seen a firewall brought up several times. What are people looking for here? Seems like most use cases can be handled by a VPN, so I'm just curious as to what specific features people are missing.

 

[PlayUltimate]

I continue thinking that the Apple Arcade model may become the future of the Apple Store. (one fee for all curated apps). If Apple was able to offer all apps for a set monthly fee and then shut down the entire Apple Store , would that work and bypass these regulations since there would no longer be any store but a set of services offered, like the channels on satellite TV.

 

[Mousse]

I've seen a firewall brought up several times. What are people looking for here? Seems like most use cases can be handled by a VPN, so I'm just curious as to what specific features people are missing.

I want to block certain apps from accessing WiFi and/or celluar data. iOS allows blocking apps from using celluar data but allow free range on WiFi. There are lots of apps on android that want network access but have no reasonable cause for needing such access.

I use mine mainly for ad blocking and preventing data mining by certain apps that have no business requiring network access ie. a lot of photo viewing apps on Android. There are some casual games that are enjoyable if they didn't show a 30 second ads every time you start or finish a level.

 

[BaldiMac]

I want to block certain apps from accessing WiFi and/or celluar data. iOS allows blocking apps from using celluar data but allow free range on WiFi. There are lots of apps on android that want network access but have no reasonable cause for needing such access.

I use mine mainly for ad blocking and preventing data mining by certain apps that have no business requiring network access ie. a lot of photo viewing apps on Android. There are some casual games that are enjoyable if they didn't show a 30 second ads every time you start or finish a level.

That makes sense. Ability to completely block individual apps from the internet.

While I agree that would be a useful feature, I do think that if your overall goal is to prevent tracking, a VPN can be used to accomplish a lot of that. However, I fully recognize that this is a more complicated solution and there are problems with iOS VPNs.

 

[deeddawg]

In europe, sending transfers requires 2FA with app/sms codes. U can login to bank account with user-pass, and check everything, but nothing more....

The three banks I use here in the US do MFA just to login from a web browser. Choices generally are SMS, app push, email, app-scan-QR-code, or even phoning in to get code. There may then be additional validation for transfers depending on size and nature.

In fairness I probably enrolled in MFA for added security, but it's certainly available here.

 

[WiseAJ]

Did you even read the original post? This is the complete opposite and GIVING people choice.

It removes the CHOICE of having a closed and protected phone OS. This is the main feature of iOS that a lot of people specifically buy iPhones for.

There is already an open OS called android that people can use to side load to their hearts content.

This is just Android people trying to come over and ruin the iPhone because they are jealous of how much more profitable iOS is due to its closed system.

Can’t wait to see how much the whiny developers lose when Pandora’s box gets opened and all their apps get ripped off by knockoff free Chinese versions that steal user data and don’t need to worry about getting past Apples App review. They’ll be begging to put the genie back in the bottle.

 

[webkit]

Apples platform is attractive which is why the App Store revenues today are really good.

App Store revenues may also be "really good" because Apple restricts app store competition (and sideloading) on iOS. Blocking or restricting competition can help keep revenues strong, especially if a company has a dominant position in a particular market like Apple does in mobile OS.

 

[WiiDSmoker]

It removes the CHOICE of having a closed and protected phone OS. This is the main feature of iOS that a lot of people specifically buy iPhones for.

There is already an open OS called android that people can use to side load to their hearts content.

This is just Android people trying to come over and ruin the iPhone because they are jealous of how much more profitable iOS is due to its closed system.

Can’t wait to see how much the whiny developers lose when Pandora’s box gets opened and all their apps get ripped off by knockoff free Chinese versions that steal user data and don’t need to worry about getting past Apples App review. They’ll be begging to put the genie back in the bottle.

You hold this thought for macOS?

 

[I7guy]

App Store revenues may also be "really good" because Apple restricts app store competition (and sideloading) on iOS.

Its good because it’s a great platform. Requiring minimal investment of time and dollars…only sweat equity.

Blocking or restricting competition can help keep revenues strong,

The App Store has multiple apps of the same category. Oh wait, you mean multiple app stores. I think apple is okay with it. They will still get their 27% platform fee.

especially if a company has a dominant position in a particular market like Apple does in mobile OS.

If apple was dominant the epic vs apple laws suit should have had a different ending.