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New iMac - Leopard Install Question

wackymacky said:
If your computer is brand new there is no advantage of an "erase install".

If your machine is out of the box then just update (the defalt choice) as you shouldn't have any problems.
Click to expand...
That's (almost) true IF you wish to keep everything that ships in the standard HD-image.
OTOH, an "Erase and Install" gives you the opportunity to shed many GB of "bloatware,"
plus apps that you'll never use, drivers for printers that you'll never own, and document
translations in languages that you've never even heard of.

A lean n' mean install not only saves disk space, it also allows the system run faster --
especially with things like Software Updates, file searches, and backups.

...don't install it until you need it -- if ever,

LK
 
With an Archive & Install you can customize your install to remove languages and drivers you don't want or need. That provides a nice, clean and lean install.
 
CLuv said:
With an Archive & Install you can customize your install to remove languages and drivers you don't want or need. That provides a nice, clean and lean install.
Click to expand...
Could be, I didn't explore that option -- I didn't have anything I wanted to archive.
With a new machine (less than a month old) the easiest path was to wipe it clean
and start fresh. Just copied my photos and a few other valuables to an external HD
and kissed Tiger good-bye.

Wasn't recommending Erase&Install for folks with old established systems, but the OP
hardly fits that description. IMO, it's much easier to start clean and leave out things
that you don't want/need than it is to remove them later -- or even find them later.

...ymmv,

LK
 
Just got my iMac on Monday with the drop-in. Erase and install worked like a breeze. No multi-language, no printer drivers and about 10 Gigabytes lighter. This was my first OS 10.anything install, I used to be a Windows admin. The setup was ridiculously easy....even my bluetooth keyboard and mouse were functional when booting off the disc. Unreal. I'm liking this Mac thing very much.
 
Ellen - if you do an Erase & Install you'll have to reinstall iLife. iLife is not on your Leopard Drop In disc. Your easiest option, even if freshly out of the box is an Archive & Install. It gives you a fresh new OS, brings over all your existing programs so you don't have to reinstall, and with the Customize function during your install you can remove unnecessary languages, printer drivers, and other items you might not want. My Leopard install ended up being only 6.4GB, after removing items I did not want. My Archive & Install on my iMac was great and easy. Nothing needed to be reinstalled. I ran Software Update after the Archive & Install to bring Leopard to version 10.5.1, and it updated all of my iLife programs that needed to be updated.

If you want to do an Erase & Install, you'll just spend unneeded time and effort to reinstall your bundled iLife & iWorks off of your Install DVD that are labeled Disc 1 & Disc 2.

Upgrade might leave remnants behind of Tiger, and that's why I recommend Archive & Install.

If you're new to Mac OS X, remember this is not Windows. You don't need to wipe it clean and reinstall everything. You're not loaded with crapware like Windows machines. Mac gives you only what you need, your computer is your computer, not an advertising machine first and then a computer.
 
Hi

I've got an iMac on the way so this thread is very interesting for me. I have a question between archive/erase. Wouldn't erase and install have some advantages because the OS would be installed on an empty hard drive and so would be physically laid out in the optimum way, ie not fragmented etc?

b e n
 
I was in the same shoe as you a few weeks ago and just performed an upgrade, and it's super smooth. I'd recommend upgrade! This isn't Windows!

dL
 
CLuv said:
... My Leopard install ended up being only 6.4GB, after removing items I did not want. ...

... You're not loaded with crapware like Windows machines. Mac gives you
only what you need, your computer is your computer, not an advertising
machine first and then a computer.
Click to expand...

Hmm, 6.4 GB versus 15-20 GB hardly sounds like "only what you need."

In the standard factory-installed disk image, OVER HALF of the disk space in
the /Applications directory is consumed by advertising test-drive bloatware.

Believe those cute "I'm a Mac" - "I'm a PC" ads, if you wish -- but I'll put my
faith in /usr/bin/du -s

... OTOH, it's equal-opportunity bloatvertising -- MS Office and iWork,

LK
 
That is somewhat true, but a good portion of individuals will need Office or iWork. I mean advertising crapware in the sense of AOL, Earthlink, Norton, McAfee, Yahoo Music, and all the other bloatware that is installed because Window vendors need to make money.

Not impressed with calling out two productivity suites, and most newbies won't be inclined to install NeoOffice or Open Office. They stick with what they know.

In my case the 6.4GB was for Leopard itself with X11, HP & Brother Print Drivers installed. Everything else was removed from the Leopard install disc option. You might want to try an Archive & Install first before you make my 6.4GB sound like it was more then I needed. If you haven't tried an Archive & Install before from a drop in disc or the boxed version as you even stated, there isn't much ground for you to stand on in order to call me out on my install size. Considering a default install requires 9GB of space, and that stat is from Apple's Tech Specs for Leopard requirements.
 
Since my iMac is new, all I care about would be iLife, since I'm assuming everything else on it is the operating system - at least I did not buy any applications like iWork. So if I were to archive and install, does that mean I would then have something to delete - ie does it "archive" the Tiger OS?
 
Ellen, yes Tiger is in a sense "archived". A new folder will be created called Previous System. You can delete it if you feel like you don't like Leopard. I love Leopard, so I deleted the Previous System folder as soon as the installation was complete. Here is some info directly from Apple, and as you can see you get a new install of Mac OS X, but without the hassle of having to reinstall all of your programs such as iLife.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=306517

From there you can delete any application you don't like, such as Microsoft Office. If you want a clean removal, I recommend AppDelete to remove. Especially since Microsoft's built-in Remove Office program doesn't seem to work properly under Leopard.

http://reggie.ashworth.googlepages.com/appdeletescreenshots

It's better then dragging Microsoft Office to the Trash. If you decide to use AppDelete, just drag the Remove Office program onto the AppDelete icon and that should take care of removing office.

Hope that helps.
 
CLuv said:
In my case the 6.4GB was for Leopard itself with X11, HP & Brother Print Drivers
installed. Everything else was removed from the Leopard install disc option.
Click to expand...
Sounds as if you did an Archive&Install but instructed the installer to remove everything
except X11 and some printer drivers -- then promptly deleted the Previous System folder.
Clearly, 6.4 GB does not include any iLife component or anything of significance from the
standard factory-installed "bundled applications" and bloatware.

I'm really having a hard time seeing how that's functionally different from Erase&Install,
except that you probably inherited some (unknown) stuff from Tiger, and ended up with
a mixed bag of Leopard-default and pre-update preference settings -- plus unnecessary
fragmentation in the post-install disk layout. What benefit did Archve&Install provide?

I haven't seen a factory-installed Leopard, but my Tiger 10.4.8 came from the factory
with over 15 GB on the hard drive -- and Leopard's new features make it a bit larger.
That 9 GB figure quoted from Leopard tech specs almost certainly excludes many GB
of "bundled apps" and bloatware that are part of standard factory-installed iMac disk
image -- but not included in any Leopard distribution.

LK
 
The Leopard Drop In Disc does not have any bundled software such as iLife, nor does a boxed version of Leopard. The 9GB for Leopard is for only Leopard, not bundled apps, you obviously don't know what's on a Leopard disc if you state that I removed iLife from Leopard during the OS Install. It's Leopard with every driver possible, and every language possible. Here you go, this link might help you out. Let me know if you find iLife on the following page? I got a feeling you won't find it.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/

If you read the Apple link I provided earlier for Ellen about different installations, you might be enlightened a little. Archive & Install provides you a clean and new Mac OS X. It's not an upgrade, so no remnants of Tiger. 6.4GB is for Leopard and Leopard only, my Applications folder is only 3.21GB, and guess what.....that includes iLife that was pulled over from the Archive & Install.
On another note, Mac OS X is known to dynamically defragment the drive as you work.
Please do a little research on something, before you claim to know about something you've never even read about or even used as you even stated. If you've never used it or ran an Archive & Install, don't talk to others like you're all knowing. I'm only here to help provide an easier alternative then a full on Erase & Install, and help Ellen avoid any issues with an upgrade. I'm not here to argue with someone that has never done something themselves, or read about the different install methods, or what's actually contained on the Leopard disc, or how my install went compared to yours. Your lack of knowledge is evident since you didn't know you could double click on Install OS X after putting in your Leopard Disc in order to do other methods of installation (that's called RTFM), and from not reading/researching how other methods work, or from your assumption that a Leopard Drop In Disc contains iLife. That assumption and question has been answered before on the boards here and can be seen by the Tech Specs of Leopard, and it's N O, NO. The search function is amazing, I highly recommend it.

If you want remnants from Tiger, do an upgrade.

If you want to spend time wiping your drive, installing Leopard without removing unwanted system drivers or languages, and then reinstall all of your programs, do an Erase & Install. You can customize your install to remove unwanted system drivers or languages through this method also.

If you want a new Mac OS X with your programs already intact without the need or time spent to reinstall your programs, with no remnants of Tiger, and the ability to remove unwanted system drivers and languages during install in less time then an Erase & Install do an Archive & Install.

I'm done, and I've said my piece.

To Ellen, I hope you enjoy your Mac. I do, and that's why I've bought two in a year. You can find great information here on the boards.
 
I wound up doing an upgrade - rather than archive and install - not deliberately, but I was expecting to see a menu that would give me the different options, and didn't realize that selecting install would do the upgrade rather than listing the choices . But so far, it seems to be fine (other than knocking my Dell laptop off my home network, for reasons I have not figured out yet). I was impressed by how the wireless keyboard and mouse were recognized so easily, and the iMac connected to my network so easily. Now I hope that I don't have any freezing problems!
 
Congrats, you'll love your new computer. Are you using a wireless router? Did you get a new one with your purchase of your iMac? If so, who's the make and model?
Also, what model Dell is it specifically? Maybe we can get that resolved for you here if you haven't gotten that fixed already.
 
Thanks! Right now I am using the compact Linksys router I've had for about 2 years - I had to leave yesterday before checking things out but it looks like the computer made a wireless connection with it. I suspect that I need to change some settings manually as I had originally reconfigured some of the security settings - it is possible that the iMac "took" the laptop's connection. I also need to check the quality of the connection, since I could also wire the Mac to the router - I just love the fact that there are fewer cables on my desk. Also so far I think the internal speakers sound pretty good, so I haven't decided what to do - though I am thinking of getting the Spyro speakers (or whatever they are called - the onces that look like 4 leave clovers) - I assume they are powered so I'd wind up with a few more cords.
 
By the way, since I did the upgrade (not realize I had bypassed archive and install) and if I'm right installed all the languages and printer drivers, is there a way to remove what I don't need without starting from scratch (which I don't want to do)? Thanks.
 
CLuv said:
Not impressed with calling out two productivity suites, and most newbies won't be inclined to install NeoOffice or Open Office. They stick with what they know.
Click to expand...

I'm a Pages user, but NeoOffice is very user-friendly to those comfortable with Word...
 
Looks like post-Leopard upgrade {and before installing any applications other than software upgrades} I have about 16GB on my HD. The "info" for the HD says its capacity is 297 GB (not 320) - is that normal?

I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more basic questions --

Should I decide at some point to get rid of things I don't need, like languages, is there a place (as in Windows Control Panel) where I can delete discrete programs, utilities, etc?

I was able to set up my mail - right now my biggest challenge is to figure out the best font to use for my display and email. The default seems to thin and small even if I tilt the display, but I assume I can adjust this. Any suggestions would be appreciated!!!

Finally, in Safari is there a way to permanently enlarge the text or do I have to hit Command-+ every time I open it?
 
Re: No iLife

Aquis said:
Erase and install will leave you without iLife - iLife is NOT on the 10.5 install disk, unless it is the iMac 10.5 disk (which according to your first post, it is not). Edit: You can still have iLife by installing it using the Tiger CD's, and installing the bundled applications.

You probably won't need your original bundled 10.4 disks after you upgrade to Leopard, I'd keep them safe anyway. You do not need to install Tiger first before you install Leopard, if for example you got a new hard disk.
Click to expand...

Exactly, the 10.5 install disk that comes with the *iMac is different from the one that you buy separately. The one you buy separate does not include iLife '08. I recommend that you just upgrade, if the disk you have came in a separate package. Otherwise, I would just do a clean new install, assuming you have no previous applications installed on the system.
 
Delete Delete Delete

Ellen said:
Looks like post-Leopard upgrade {and before installing any applications other than software upgrades} I have about 16GB on my HD. The "info" for the HD says its capacity is 297 GB (not 320) - is that normal?

I hope you don't mind if I ask a few more basic questions --

Should I decide at some point to get rid of things I don't need, like languages, is there a place (as in Windows Control Panel) where I can delete discrete programs, utilities, etc?

I was able to set up my mail - right now my biggest challenge is to figure out the best font to use for my display and email. The default seems to thin and small even if I tilt the display, but I assume I can adjust this. Any suggestions would be appreciated!!!

Finally, in Safari is there a way to permanently enlarge the text or do I have to hit Command-+ every time I open it?
Click to expand...

I think it is perfectly normal for the the GB of the hard drive not to be exact. That appears the same on my iMac. Don't worry, though, it is perfectly fine. I wouldn't delete the extras. If you delete the wrong thing, you could mess up your whole system. And, with 300 GB, you have nothing to worry about. You have plenty of space. And about safari, go to the top menu bar while safari is open and click on Safari>Preferences>Appearence and then change the font and font size there. Hope I could help!
 
Ellen said:
The "info" for the HD says its capacity is 297 GB (not 320) - is that normal?
Click to expand...
Yes, perfectly normal -- and you did get the 320,000,000,000 bytes you paid for:

1) When hard drive manufacturers say "GB" they mean 10^9 (= 1,000,000,000)

2) When computer software geeks say "GB" they mean 2^30 (= 1,073,741,824)

3) The 'Info" byte-counting program was written by computer software geeks.

4) 320.00 WesternDigitalGB x ( 10^9 / 2^30 ) = 298.02 SoftwareGeekGB

5) Any small "missing" residual is partitioning & formatting "tax."

... 2 + 2 = 5 (for large values of 2),

LK
 
Ellen said:
Looks like post-Leopard upgrade {and before installing any applications other
than software upgrades} I have about 16GB on my HD. ... Should I decide at
some point to get rid of things I don't need, like languages, is there a place (as
in Windows Control Panel) where I can delete discrete programs, utilities, etc?
Click to expand...

No, there's no equivalent of Windoze' "Add & Remove Software." In OS-X, it's
safe to drag unwanted apps to the Trash -- but that doesn't necessarily delete
all the excess baggage dragged-in (or created on-the-fly) by the application.
(Of course, Windoze' "Remove Software" has similar shortcomings.)

There are some free "application removal" programs around that attempt to
locate and delete everything associated with an app, and they (reportedly)
work rather well -- for deleting the occasional unwanted 'normal' application.
However, they're not going to be much help for deleting multi-GBs of stuff
like printer drivers, local-languages, etc. that aren't 'normal' applications --
especially when you don't know what they are, or where they are on disk.

In your situation, I'd recommend playing with the current 16 GB installation
for a few days -- just to get a feel for what the various apps do and which
ones might be useful to you. After that, (IMO, of course) the only practical
way to trim-down to a significantly smaller disk image is to start fresh with
an "Erase & Install" of Leopard -- followed by an install of (only) the desired
"bundled applications" from the original Tiger install disks.

Here are my disk-usage figures for the Leopard start-from-scratch process:

- Erase & Install Leopard 10.5.0 with NO optional packages ............... 6.6 GB

- SoftwareUpdate (11/11, immediately after Leopard install) ............. 6.7 GB

- Install & SoftwareUpdate iLife'08 (except iWeb & GarageBand) ........ 8.9 GB

- SoftwareUpdate to Leopard 10.5.1............................................... 9.1 GB

The final 9.1 GB total is with no printer drivers, no iWork or MS_Office "test drives" and
no GarageBand or iWeb -- but it does include "non optional" Leopard packages such as
Safari, QuickTime, iTunes, etc., plus the iLife'08 versions of iPhoto, iMovie, and iDVD.

..a billion here, a billion there -- and pretty soon you're talkin' 'bout alot of money,

LK
 
Thanks. My newest issues seems to be network-related. (Which has also caused my system to freeze a few times - though I don't believe the update written about here applied to my computer, there was a software update 10.5.1. but that was something else?).

Anyway, I have a Linksys WRT54GC router. It seems to work fine with the iMac, which I'm using with a wireless connection, but will not longer recognize my Dell laptop. I think this has something to do with the security settings. If I disable all security, the laptop gets through. But I've noticed that both the iMac and the Linksys have wireless security settings. For wireless to work on the iMac, I either need to disable security on the iMac (and set it on the router) or set both to the same type of security. That still creates an issue with the laptop, but my initial question is what does the iMac security setting do - is it necessary if I set security on the router? Right now I have both on WPA Personal, but that does not seem compatible with the laptop.
 
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