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If there’s a positive correlation between app engagement and display size, why would Apple stop at the 5” mark? That example was taken from 2014 and consumers have moved beyond 5” displays. Apple doesn’t serve niche markets with a huge product stack. They focus on what most customers want. As CEO, that’s probably the most important lesson Steve Jobs taught Apple.

According to IHS, in 2015, the average LCD smartphone panel size was 5.1”. In 2019, it’s expected to be 5.5”. Apple already tried in 2016 and launched the SE which had a smaller than average smartphone display. It didn’t work out. Why would Apple try the same strategy again?
Apple’s trio of current phones has a median screen size of nearly 6.2”. I’m sure every market study told them that was a great idea on paper, but my opinion is their all-in approach with bigger phones is contributing to the reduced interest they’re experiencing with their latest offerings. Again my opinion, a smaller XR type phone would help (even at ~5.3” to 5.5”) and could be done profitably.
 
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Same here! My 6S died a couple of weeks ago, and when I went to Verizon and did the "does this fit my hand or make it cramp" test, the XS was my only option. (And I hate, hate, hate Face ID!)
Give it time, the new gestures are very fluid and I don’t miss the home button at all. I came from 6s also.
 
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Same here! My 6S died a couple of weeks ago, and when I went to Verizon and did the "does this fit my hand or make it cramp" test, the XS was my only option. (And I hate, hate, hate Face ID!)

Why not just go to an 8 and save some money and keep TouchID?

Unfortunately, if Apple keeps the 4.7” display format, the next SE-sized phone is likely to be FaceID too. So that boat has probably sailed for good.
 
If I had to make a guesstimate, I think the SE (Totally re-named by the way) could re-debut in 2020, 2019 will not be the year for the SE revival. And the reason I say 2020, is there really isn’t anything indicating a refresh this year, especially given the AirPods updating to version 2, new XR to be refreshed, Series 5 Apple Watch, and Mac update.
 
And the reason I say 2020, is there really isn’t anything indicating a refresh this year, especially given the AirPods updating to version 2, new XR to be refreshed, Series 5 Apple Watch, and Mac update.

I'm not following the logic...Can you explain?

What would or wouldn't give you insight into a new SE (with a new name, I agree) this year?

What are you seeing that tells you "no" and asked another way, what would indicate to you one was coming?
 
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I'm not following the logic...Can you explain?

What would or wouldn't give you insight into a new SE (with a new name, I agree) this year?

What are you seeing that tells you "no" and asked another way, what would indicate to you one was coming?

Obviously I don’t have any supportive evidence, but my reasoning is because I don’t think SE has any credible rumors/leaks thus far (Other than horrible renders) indicating that an SE _could_ happen this year. I do follow Ming Kuo (Yes, He isn’t always correct) and he hasn’t specified anything in his beliefs as well for an SE for 2019.

I will say, initially, I didn’t believe Apple would ever update the SE again, but I don’t believe Apple has a finalized trajectory how they do things and I’m not always correct either. I think the SE will likely not incorporate a 4 inch display, probably something larger (5”), using face ID, OLED, but I think the key to the SE, is a smaller form factor with an ‘affordable’ price tag without all the unnecessary technology that some are not interested in. If Apple can follow those same core values they had with the first SE in 2016, I think they will be pleasantly surprised how well it would do.

Also, two other products are expected to be refreshed this year, the iPod and iPad Mini, which another example, if the iPad mini does refresh, retaining the smaller form factor and somewhat incremental changes, then that shows you that Apple is still keeping some of their older Gen products alive, which is something they should consider.
 
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but my reasoning is because I don’t think SE has any credible rumors/leaks thus far (Other than horrible renders) indicating that an SE _could_ happen this year.

So no leaks is why - Got it...
Makes sense.

Hard to know for sure, but I understand where you're coming from.
 
I'm not following the logic...Can you explain?

What would or wouldn't give you insight into a new SE (with a new name, I agree) this year?

What are you seeing that tells you "no" and asked another way, what would indicate to you one was coming?

I personally think this year would be premature to see a completely redesigned SE with FaceID, essentially a replacement for the iPhone 8, or an Xr mini. FaceID is still pretty new, and I think they still have a way to go to get the price down, and reduce the space it takes up inside the phone. It has to be cheap enough and small enough to fit into an SE-sized case so that Apple can lower the price enough to sell, but with a high enough profit margin to make it worth their while to make.

That said, when Apple made the iPhone 6, I’ve always thought they must have made a prototype the size of the 5s. If so, then they could just tool up and make the phone using the same parts as those in the 8 without raising any eyebrows in the supply chain. They would basically only need a new smaller display. The sudden withdrawal of the SE and subsequent liquidation of that inventory suggests to me a scenario where Apple wanted to clear the old SE out of the marketplace, so they could position a new one without anything to undercut it, not to mention reclaiming the resources to manufacture it. One would expect leaks even in this situation, but then again, nobody’s likely watching this segment all that closely. This seems a long shot, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened. Maybe we’ll see it in March alongside the new mini, and iPod Touch — another dual purpose design which has been rumored that might mask a new SE-sized phone coming. Or maybe they will introduce it in September, in which case we’ve got several months more for leaks to surface. Or maybe if it is an adaptation of the iPod Touch, the phone version simply shows up, again without any significant leaks.

Something is odd about the SE, in a way we didn’t see with the 5c. Maybe somethings up, maybe it’s not and we’ve just entered a new era with Apple ... but I feel like there’s too many variables to completely write off a new SE-sized phone.

Given Apple’s recent troubles underestimating market demand, there’s every reason to believe they could be rushing concepts to market to cover themselves so as not to lose any more market share. Who knows. But I’m just going to keep watching and waiting, and hoping ...
 
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If Apple can make a big ass phone with cutting edge specs like the iPhone XS Max, they can make a small ass phone with cutting edge specs too.

Even if an SE successor ever happened and it didn't have a headphone jack, and it came with a glass design, I wouldn't mind... As long as its small and fits perfectly in one hand as the original SE, I'll be happy and be there day one.
 
If Apple can make a big ass phone with cutting edge specs like the iPhone XS Max, they can make a small ass phone with cutting edge specs too.

Even if an SE successor ever happened and it didn't have a headphone jack, and it came with a glass design, I wouldn't mind... As long as its small and fits perfectly in one hand as the original SE, I'll be happy and be there day one.
And big ass phones are generally heavy ass phones, especially in Apple’s glass-happy world. The rumored Pixel 3 Lite would address both areas incrementally; slightly smaller 5.5” screen and a plastic housing that could noticeably cut weight. The combined effect could make for an interesting device. If this thing undercuts XR by hundreds of dollars and is more comfortable to hold and use, I hope it does well enough for Apple to sit up and take notice. I’m sticking around for iOS, but the average buyer doesn’t care as much about that. And no, I’m not suggesting another 5c.
 
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If Apple can make a big ass phone with cutting edge specs like the iPhone XS Max, they can make a small ass phone with cutting edge specs too.

Even if an SE successor ever happened and it didn't have a headphone jack, and it came with a glass design, I wouldn't mind... As long as its small and fits perfectly in one hand as the original SE, I'll be happy and be there day one.

That isn't really true. It all depends on what cutting edge specs you want to cram in there. There's a reason the Plus models have additional features the base models don't and it's not just because of price, it's because there's more room for them, as well as a larger battery to provide a baseline experience. An SE-sized phone will never be able to hold as many features as a Max-sized phone, no matter how much they charge. The Apple Watch is an interesting look at this problem. The 40mm is the size Apple designs the features for, which are kept identical on the 44mm, despite having quite a bit more room inside. So only the battery and display are larger, with the larger models having better battery life as a result (and probably less throttling). But Apple doesn't do that with the iPhones, because the competition has been growing ever larger, thus able to squeeze more features into them, and charging more for them. It's very hard to go back once that happens. So any "small ass" phone will have necessary compromises, both in what features they can include, and the price they can charge for it as a result of that and the number of people willing to buy it.

I don't care if it's more expensive. I went with the Xs because it was the smaller of the new phones, I hate big phones.

Yes, but you also opted for the largest number of the latest features too. You could have easily paid less, for the slightly smaller iPhone 8, but you chose a flagship model instead. And that's the problem with the SE. Apple has never offered a flagship model since the 5s that had the most, and most advanced features available in under a 4.7" display.

As I describe above, there's no way Apple can cram all the latest features the Xs has into an SE-sized case. So it's customers like you who approach Apple with the same mission of finding the smallest phone in their lineup which serves their needs. And it's customers like you who continue to buy more expensive phones, even if Apple doesn't offer you a smaller alternative, which they could almost certainly not sell for the same price, even though you might buy it. When Apple made the decision to drop the SE, 6 & 6s from in-store inventory, I'm convinced they did so to take the lowest priced options off the table, maybe even to see how many customers would resign themselves to upgrading to a larger, more expensive model. Only Apple knows how that worked out. But my guess is, like you, without the SE, or a much less expensive option not that different from the more expensive models to get them through another year to see what Apple does in the future, they simply held on to what they had, or picked the smallest and/or cheapest phone that met their needs. And that's what keeps Apple from addressing the more niche aspects of their customer base.
 
There's a reason the Plus models have additional features the base models don't and it's not just because of price, it's because there's more room for them, as well as a larger battery to provide a baseline experience.

If you look at iPhone teardowns, it's shocking how much of it is battery.

I think there's more room for innovation in small phones than we think, as they don't need all that battery thanks to much smaller screens.

The screen size and technology is the #1 driver of power consumption - by far.

When the screen size goes down and/or the tech gets lower power, the component and ancillary tech options open up quickly.
 
If you look at iPhone teardowns, it's shocking how much of it is battery.

I think there's more room for innovation in small phones than we think, as they don't need all that battery thanks to much smaller screens.

The screen size and technology is the #1 driver of power consumption - by far.

When the screen size goes down and/or the tech gets lower power, the component and ancillary tech options open up quickly.

Oh I agree, but I still don't think you're gonna get a double, much less a triple lense camera, and all the current FaceID components, into it, like they could on the Max. But it's a dance. Size reduction vs. cost reduction. And as the technology improves to miniaturize more components, the more space in the larger devices they have to add something else. So I just don't necessarily ever see an SE-sized phone ever supporting all the same tech as the larger models, even if profit margins weren't an issue.
 
So I just don't necessarily ever see an SE-sized phone ever supporting all the same tech as the larger models, even if profit margins weren't an issue.

Agreed... not “all” the tech, but certainly enough if it to make an interesting product offering I’d say.

As a small phone advocate, I definitely would not expect all features of larger devices in a smaller one...just the critical and most interesting and useful ones.
 
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Agreed... not “all” the tech, but certainly enough if it to make an interesting product offering I’d say.

As a small phone advocate, I definitely would not expect all features of larger devices in a smaller one...just the critical and most interesting and useful ones.

They’ve already started doing it with the XR. The new SE could use haptic touch, Liquid Retina (LCD), single camera, and aluminum, just like the XR.
 
They’ve already started doing it with the XR. The new SE could use haptic touch, Liquid Retina (LCD), single camera, and aluminum, just like the XR.

But that would be dependent if Apple decides not to increase the price point, and if they increase the price of a version two of the SE, then that obviously will include more technology/updated hardware components. The fact is, the price point was the alternative driver behind the SE Besides the smaller form factor. That was something else Apple specifically targeted with that phone, was to keep it as affordable as possible, by not including certain technology the later iPhone models included.
 
People that bought SE for price would have likely preferred a bigger screen (following general market preference these days). Those buyers are increasingly important as Apple shifts to services. Come this fall, the 7 series probably gets dropped and the 8 series will likely fall to $499 and I don’t think that’s cheap enough. I’d like to see them scrap the 8 too and come out with a new iPhone 9 & 9+ that are stripped versions of the 7/8 series. A11 or A12 and decent camera are important, but scrap wireless charging, 3D Touch, fancy glass housings, etc and just make it a basic home button phone that can sell for $349 - $399 for the 4.7” model. Use the opportunity to get rid of any components Qualcomm might b!tch about too.

For the buyer prioritizing size, offer a smaller XR for $650, keep the 6.1” at $750 as the XR+ and call it a day.
 
People that bought SE for price would have likely preferred a bigger screen (following general market preference these days). Those buyers are increasingly important as Apple shifts to services. Come this fall, the 7 series probably gets dropped and the 8 series will likely fall to $499 and I don’t think that’s cheap enough. I’d like to see them scrap the 8 too and come out with a new iPhone 9 & 9+ that are stripped versions of the 7/8 series. A11 or A12 and decent camera are important, but scrap wireless charging, 3D Touch, fancy glass housings, etc and just make it a basic home button phone that can sell for $349 - $399 for the 4.7” model. Use the opportunity to get rid of any components Qualcomm might b!tch about too.

For the buyer prioritizing size, offer a smaller XR for $650, keep the 6.1” at $750 as the XR+ and call it a day.

The point people keep missing, is that the SE was never a new phone. The 5 was 4 years old when the SE reused the majority of its design and features. The only substantive change was putting a better camera, radios, and processor into it, and offering it in some new colors. There was never any chance Apple wasn’t going to target a budget market with such a phone. My guess is Apple underestimated how many people who would spend more opted for the SE instead, despite its limitations, specifically for its size, and that ate into their profits from larger phones.

What’s missing from this equation is offering a new smaller state of the art phone, with a new design, and features that are 100% on par with the top of the line phones, even if it doesn’t include all of them. It’ll still be on the low end of the premium pricing, but it gets a bigger return from those willing to spend more and want a smaller phone. Then, they can depreciate it more gradually; and then, like the SE with a processor update, allows them to offer it on the very low end, where it will be more relevant than even the SE because they didn’t start with a 4 year old design and features to begin with. The XR is clearly going to do this for the larger sized phone.
 
The point people keep missing, is that the SE was never a new phone. The 5 was 4 years old when the SE reused the majority of its design and features. The only substantive change was putting a better camera, radios, and processor into it, and offering it in some new colors. There was never any chance Apple wasn’t going to target a budget market with such a phone. My guess is Apple underestimated how many people who would spend more opted for the SE instead, despite its limitations, specifically for its size, and that ate into their profits from larger phones.

What’s missing from this equation is offering a new smaller state of the art phone, with a new design, and features that are 100% on par with the top of the line phones, even if it doesn’t include all of them. It’ll still be on the low end of the premium pricing, but it gets a bigger return from those willing to spend more and want a smaller phone. Then, they can depreciate it more gradually; and then, like the SE with a processor update, allows them to offer it on the very low end, where it will be more relevant than even the SE because they didn’t start with a 4 year old design and features to begin with. The XR is clearly going to do this for the larger sized phone.
I’m not sure if we’re saying the same thing or not. I would consider a “smaller XR” to be a smaller state of the art phone with the latest design and features and at $650 would sit at the lower end of premium pricing. What’s missing?
 
My guess is Apple underestimated how many people who would spend more opted for the SE instead, despite its limitations, specifically for its size, and that ate into their profits from larger phones.

That might be true, but there are also people, who would spend nothing (on Apple), if there was no SE. Me for example. It *was* stretching upper limits of what I was prepared to spend on a phone, but with generous 64 gigs of RAM and great CPU (and of course also perfect form factor) it managed to justify the cost. With Apple CPUs being at least one generation ahead of competition, it was actually a bit cheaper than comparable (from performance standpoint) Android phones at the time.

But from current crop of iPhones there is nothing I would be prepared to spend my money on. Everything is too large and too expensive, while I could get smaller and good enough Android phone for literally half the cost. Yes iOS is better, but not that much better, mid range phones have improved significantly and the gap will only get smaller.
 
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That might be true, but there are also people, who would spend nothing (on Apple), if there was no SE. Me for example. It *was* stretching upper limits of what I was prepared to spend on a phone, but with generous 64 gigs of RAM and great CPU (and of course also perfect form factor) it managed to justify the cost. With Apple CPUs being at least one generation ahead of competition, it was actually a bit cheaper than comparable (from performance standpoint) Android phones at the time.

But from current crop of iPhones there is nothing I would be prepared to spend my money on. Everything is too large and too expensive, while I could get smaller and good enough Android phone for literally half the cost. Yes iOS is better, but not that much better, mid range phones have improved significantly and the gap will only get smaller.
I suppose my basic iPhone 9 & 9+ suggestion could also include a 9 Mini at 4”. Hate to say it but it should look like the bigger 9’s with presumably rounded edges. Like an iPod touch maybe.
 
NOPE!

Apple does listen to its customers. Meanwhile, all of the people who waste their lives playing games on huge phones should: 1. Grow up 2. Why would you care what other people want in a device? You’re not making any new friends this way.

2. It’s an insecurity of those who care. They love being reassured by others that their $1k+ purchase was justified and therefore bigger must be better for everyone.

Reminds me of the online dating commercials trending on TV recently with only obese people. Because being obese is the norm. So have at it! Grab another donut and God forbid anyone prefer a smaller frame.
 
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