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Longplays

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If people want replaceable batteries they can buy devices with replaceable batteries and let the market decide. But they don’t, so we’ve got an unwieldy barely democratic completely opaque process of back seat designing.

I for one hope Apple give EU customers the crappy version and leave the rest of us alone.
Smartphones with user replaceable batteries are few and far in between.

Apple does not offer one. Can you point to a Samsung one? Xiaomi? OPPO? vivo? Any other brands?

Are there tablets with user replaceable batteries? Apple never had one. Samsung? Amazon? Huawei? Lenovo? Any other brands?

How about wireless earphones?

Last Mac laptop that had it was over a decade ago.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
35,165
25,333
Gotta be in it to win it
Because short battery life is a major factor in people's decisions to buy a new device.
I had apple replace the battery in my iPhone. Short battery life is not a trigger imo as much as fomo.
If you could replace the battery on your own — at home, quickly — many would hold off replacing their devices. Just order a replacement battery and install it yourself. Bam! Your device is now good for a couple more years.

in contrast, there is a big hassle factor in finding someone to replace the battery and issues if you mail it into Apple — keep in mind that millions do not have an Apple Store near them. Plus, who would want to drive 100 miles just for a more expensive Apple battery replacement? In addition, labor costs are part of their price. User-installable batteries would be cheaper — again, making that less of a factor in replacing a device.

What's more, with user-replaceable batteries, there'd be no labor cost! There'd also be no downtime. If you have to mail the device in — there are an host of downsides and concerns, insuring the device, worrying about damage during shipping, turnaround time, being without the device, etc.

We recently bought an iPad 9 as our iPad Air 2's battery life had shortened greatly, especially with iOS 15. If we could have simply bought a quick drop in replacement, we would have done so.

Likewise, our 2015 13” MBA has much shorter battery life now and we have to keep plugging it in. We'll likely buy a new 13” or 15” MBA. If the battery were easily replaceable by us, we'd do it and hold off upgrading for a while.

In both cases, user-replaceable battery would extend the product's lives…
Probably be a big uptick in counterfeit and questionable batteries. The thing with windows laptops is when the cost of the battery replacements approach’s the cost of a laptop I would rather get a new laptop. Batteries that cost $70 would cause me to buy a new cheap laptop for $300.
 

uller6

macrumors 65816
May 14, 2010
1,073
1,782
Smartphones with user replaceable batteries are few and far in between.

Apple does not offer one. Can you point to a Samsung one? Xiaomi? OPPO? vivo? Any other brands?

Are there tablets with user replaceable batteries? Apple never had one. Samsung? Amazon? Huawei? Lenovo? Any other brands?

How about wireless earphones?

Last Mac laptop that had it was over a decade ago.
The point is that currently manufacturers are not incentivized to produce devices with removable batteries. They need a little bit of a push to make that a priority in electronic device design. I think this is a good thing for the planet.

Easily removable batteries also facilitate recycling/disposal once a device reaches end-of-life. It's awfully hard to separate glued batteries from other components without specialized equipment, and the risk of puncturing or otherwise damaging the batteries is much higher than if they were easily removable.
 

Longplays

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The point is that currently manufacturers are not incentivized to produce devices with removable batteries. They need a little bit of a push to make that a priority in electronic device design. I think this is a good thing for the planet.

Easily removable batteries also facilitate recycling/disposal once a device reaches end-of-life. It's awfully hard to separate glued batteries from other components without specialized equipment, and the risk of puncturing or otherwise damaging the batteries is much higher than if they were easily removable.

The planet will be fine with as much e-waste we make. New flora and fauna will adapt to them.

It will harm humans though as those things are toxic to our biology and the current flora and fauna we depend on.

What the return of user replaceable batteries in the theme of 2008-2012 MBP would bring is longer utility of people's devices.

Like say TV remotes that still use AA batteries. You don't throw the remote away once it runs out of power. You recharge the AA batteries or replace em.

The TV remotes with the TV gets hand me down, sold or recycled when you're done 1-2 decades later. Just do not buy Samsung TVs. We bought em from 2006-2009 and they do not last more than half a decade. My 2016 LG OLED TV is still running strong until now 7+ years later. On its 10th year will probably buy a 2026 Apple TV 8K or 2026 Nvidia Shield as the built-in LG webOS smart tv will be slow as molasses.

With laptops/desktops with unchanged user use case it should last a decade then replaced as a set. Windows support spans 122 months while macOS is over 9 years long.

If you have a use case that has not change since 2015 then the replacement iPhone chip 3 months from now would be more computer than any from 8+ years ago. Personally, I'd gladly pay $3.5k for an iPhone 1TB or 2TB that can run full macOS when connected to an external display with built-in Thunderbolt dock, keyboard and mouse.

Smartphones that get dropped, liquid/moisture exposure and really need to be small should last nearly 8 years. Same with tablets, smart watches and possibly earphones too.
 
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uller6

macrumors 65816
May 14, 2010
1,073
1,782
The planet will be fine with as much e-waste we make. New flora and fauna will adapt to them.

It will harm humans though as those things are toxic to our biology and the current flora and fauna we depend on.
Well, yes, isn't this the entire point of trying to do something about climate change? We're going to change the environment we depend on for food + survival and possibly make our own species extinct through our own actions. I think of it in a similar sense as a yeast consuming sugar in a bottle during fermentation while producing alcohol as a byproduct. At some point the yeast has produced enough alcohol that it can no longer survive in its environment and dies off! Then we have beer.

Personally, I'd gladly pay $3.5k for an iPhone 1TB or 2TB that can run full macOS when connected to an external display with built-in Thunderbolt dock, keyboard and mouse.
I would LOVE an iPhone that could be plugged into a monitor to run full OSX. Call me when Apple finally decides to make such a device, since they haven't shown any interest yet...
 
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Longplays

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Well, yes, isn't this the entire point of trying to do something about climate change? We're going to change the environment we depend on for food + survival and possibly make our own species extinct through our own actions. I think of it in a similar sense as a yeast consuming sugar in a bottle during fermentation while producing alcohol as a byproduct. At some point the yeast has produced enough alcohol that it can no longer survive in its environment and dies off! Then we have beer.
Climate change wasn't a thing 220+ years ago when the world population was less than 1 billion.

Fast forward to Nov 2022 and we breached 8 billion.

What changed? 7+ billion people are alive today. That materially contributes to climate change.

Annual-World-Population-since-10-thousand-BCE-1536x1080.png


Top 20% of that population have nearly complete set of consumer electronics from smartphones, laptops, wearables, tablets, desktops without PCIe slots, desktops with PCIe slots, refrigerators, electric fans, ACs, etc.

Now compassionate persons want the bottom 80% to level up their standard of living to those of the top 20% and that would be catastrophic to climate change. The carbon footprint of the haves being applied to 4x more people worldwide that compromise the bottom 80%?

When you're that poor that malnutrition that leads to physical and mental stunting (low IQ) is part of daily life you will not give a hoot that becoming as rich as any Apple user will cause more cliamte change.

To quantify "poor" would be a person earning ~$1.00/hr vs anyone earning ~$15.00/hr regardless of cost of living. Because those electronics, cars, etc will largely cost similarly worldwide due to BoM.

To put it in another way the UK, a rich nation, contributes to 1% of global greenhouse gasses that causes climate change. If by chance the archipelago were to sink into the Atlantic ocean then their contribution to greenhouse gasses would be -1%.

If you want to materially impact climate change encourage people from poor nations to have the same fertility rate as people from rich nations. It being a 2 or less birth per mother instead of 2-4 or more per mother.

Hopefully by year 2240s we'll be back to 1 billion people worldwide.

Mind you I live in a country that gets most frequently hit by super typhoons with highest wind speeds of 315 km/h (196mph).

So I am most impacted by it.
I would LOVE an iPhone that could be plugged into a monitor to run full OSX. Call me when Apple finally decides to make such a device, since they haven't shown any interest yet...
Me too. I could imagine the a I/O port selection on Thunderbolt 5 80Gb/s display like this to dock that Thunderbolt 5 80Gb/s iPhone.

tbt4-udz-ports.png


It likely will never occur from Apple as it would cannibalize their Mac business.
 
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mushy peas

macrumors regular
Jul 26, 2008
116
311
Smartphones with user replaceable batteries are few and far in between.

And you know why this is right?

It’s because consumers don’t want them. They’re thicker, have worse battery life, and people hate carrying around extra batteries, which few people buy anyways.

The market has spoken, and for clear reasons. The EU is taking us backwards by bureaucratic fiat. It’s bad policy making and bad policy.

And if anyone thinks this will do anything about e waste you’re kidding yourselves. Replaceable batteries didn’t make phones last any longer back in the day and they won’t now.
 

Longplays

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And you know why this is right?

It’s because consumers don’t want them. They’re thicker, have worse battery life, and people hate carrying around extra batteries, which few people buy anyways.

The market has spoken, and for clear reasons. The EU is taking us backwards by bureaucratic fiat. It’s bad policy making and bad policy.

And if anyone thinks this will do anything about e waste you’re kidding yourselves. Replaceable batteries didn’t make phones last any longer back in the day and they won’t now.
I agree with you 100%

Consumers largely do not want them if it means thicker/heavier/shorter battery life.

Personally I want user replaceable batteries in the theme of the 2009-2012 MBP.

Unscrew the backplate then insert fresh new batter via friction.

When that occurs the typical replacement cycle of phones of 3 years or more will likely double to 6 years or more.

No smartphone brand wants that to occur. From the 90s until about a decade ago the replacement cycle for a mobile was every 24 months with a telco contract. This market was 1+ billion mobile phones shipped annually worldwide.

That's why Steve Jobs was so excited in the hopes of getting the top 20% of the market that is quarter billion $429-1599 iPhones shipped worldwide annually.

Imagine if that were quarter billion units of $999-12,000 Macs shipped worldwide annually.
 
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ikir

macrumors 68020
Sep 26, 2007
2,178
2,367
News (in German):


Press release (English)


The EU is mandating consumer changeable batteries in 2027, banning glued batteries and other shenanigans.

I don’t think Apple is going to make special MacBook Airs and iPhones for Europe so in 2027 they will probably have changeable batteries again globally!
This is crap for so many reason but on Internet forums it seems so cool and nice…
 

ikir

macrumors 68020
Sep 26, 2007
2,178
2,367
Because short battery life is a major factor in people's decisions to buy a new device.

If you could replace the battery on your own — at home, quickly — many would hold off replacing their devices. Just order a replacement battery and install it yourself. Bam! Your device is now good for a couple more years.

in contrast, there is a big hassle factor in finding someone to replace the battery and issues if you mail it into Apple — keep in mind that millions do not have an Apple Store near them. Plus, who would want to drive 100 miles just for a more expensive Apple battery replacement? In addition, labor costs are part of their price. User-installable batteries would be cheaper — again, making that less of a factor in replacing a device.

What's more, with user-replaceable batteries, there'd be no labor cost! There'd also be no downtime. If you have to mail the device in — there are an host of downsides and concerns, insuring the device, worrying about damage during shipping, turnaround time, being without the device, etc.

We recently bought an iPad 9 as our iPad Air 2's battery life had shortened greatly, especially with iOS 15. If we could have simply bought a quick drop in replacement, we would have done so.

Likewise, our 2015 13” MBA has much shorter battery life now and we have to keep plugging it in. We'll likely buy a new 13” or 15” MBA. If the battery were easily replaceable by us, we'd do it and hold off upgrading for a while.

In both cases, user-replaceable battery would extend the product's lives…
Nope because you can already just change the battery in certified repair shop. Integrated batteries are smaller and more practical, everything is worst with interchangeable batteries even water proofing
 

krspkbl

macrumors 68020
Jul 20, 2012
2,452
5,888
Apple just need to make it cheaper/easier to replace batteries. If the battery on my iPhone went today then it's gonna cost me £90. I could buy a battery £25 and attempt to replace it myself.

Even if Apple were to charge £50 that should still cover the cost of the battery, the work, and still make a profit. Of course Apple doesn't want to make a £20 profit they want a £50 profit. It's greed but yeah we are talking about a $3 trillion company here.

And Apple is the easiest phone manufacturer to get a battery replacement. You can literally walk into an Apple store and have them replace the battery. If you're with Android you most likely need to ship it off for a couple weeks or wait a few days for a replacement device and then set up your phone all over again.
 

Longplays

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Apple just need to make it cheaper/easier to replace batteries. If the battery on my iPhone went today then it's gonna cost me £90. I could buy a battery £25 and attempt to replace it myself.

Even if Apple were to charge £50 that should still cover the cost of the battery, the work, and still make a profit. Of course Apple doesn't want to make a £20 profit they want a £50 profit. It's greed but yeah we are talking about a $3 trillion company here.

And Apple is the easiest phone manufacturer to get a battery replacement. You can literally walk into an Apple store and have them replace the battery. If you're with Android you most likely need to ship it off for a couple weeks or wait a few days for a replacement device and then set up your phone all over again.
It isn't greed. Investors want a return. If I had 112,000 shares since 2009 I'd want my $25k+ per quarter.
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
9,362
12,612
EU do this because the companies does not do this themself.

I don't want to assume I know what you mean here... What does each "this" refer to in that sentence?

The resistance to right to repair is a prime example of companies attitude that is increasing waste.
You say this like it's self evident. It is not. You're going to have to support it. Right to repair is about consumer rights, not waste. Explain how it reduces waste.
 
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Longplays

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My Apple Store did a total camera module replacement in under 2 hours. I didn’t even have an appointment…
That is well and good in your location. Some of us do not have that convenience.

Some countries need to send an order for parts to another country that will take a week to fulfill.

The service center does not allow for the phone to be kept with the owner.
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,023
8,467
The market has spoken, and for clear reasons. The EU is taking us backwards by bureaucratic fiat. It’s bad policy making and bad policy.

I think people are spinning their own stories around the article summary, which was completely vague - but will most likely be covered by Apple's self-repair program & its complience with the various US right-to-repair bills. If you actually plough through the full document at https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237_EN.pdf the appropriate bit seems to be in para (38):

in an appliance. A portable battery should be considered to be removable by the end-user when it can be removed with the use of commercially available tools and without requiring the use of specialised tools, unless they are provided free of charge, or proprietary tools, thermal energy or solvents to disassemble it. Commercially available tools are considered to be tools available on the market to all end-users without the need for them to provide evidence of any proprietary rights and that can be used with no restriction, except health and safety-related restrictions.

So its not saying that all phones have to have tool-free, clip-in batteries, just that they have to be replaceable without a magic tool that is only available by signing a restrictive contract with Apple. If you look at the 'battery' section of the iPhone repair manual already published by Apple:


...the only "drastic consequences" for Apple are going to be arguments over whether a battery press with a custom iPhone tray is 100% necessary, whether it is a "specialist/proprietary tool", and whether Apple's offer to let you hire one means it is "commercially available". In short, we're talking about possibly revising the T&Cs of Apple's existing repair program, not re-designing the iPhone.
 
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Wando64

macrumors 68020
Jul 11, 2013
2,342
3,119
The market has spoken, and for clear reasons. The EU is taking us backwards by bureaucratic fiat. It’s bad policy making and bad policy.

The market has not been given the opportunity to speak.
In fact the market (i.e. the users) have long complained about computers and phones no longer being serviceable.
I know I have, and I could bet that you too have complained, or at least being disappointed, about this at some point.

I don’t know where you’re from but, especially in the UK, if you want people to hate something just tell them that the EU is supporting it, and there you have it.

I wan’t to see you all complaining about how you miss the lightning port once the first USB-C iPhones come out.
Likewise, I love to see you all complaining about actually being able to replace your battery once this has been implemented.
Somewhat unlikely though.
 

MiniMoke

macrumors regular
Nov 12, 2009
103
70
Black River, Mauritius
Based on what you wrote do you expect battery replacements similar to those of the original PowerPC iBooks and 1st Macbook Pros?

Ov6b6WHurmmNqL2m.medium


C4RnZqHVqTkn6ffp.huge


Doing this would lengthen the replacement cycle of laptops from 4-6 years to 10 years or more.

Smartphones would be lengthened from 3-4 years to 8 years or more.

Same with tablets.
Problem is those easily swappable batteries won’t fit tightly in the phones on notebooks and a lot of possible charge will be lost!

And what about water and dust résistant phones with user swappable batteries? What about the seals?

Just another stupid idea from unwitting beaurocrats.
 

Longplays

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Problem is those easily swappable batteries won’t fit tightly in the phones on notebooks and a lot of possible charge will be lost!

And what about water and dust résistant phones with user swappable batteries? What about the seals?

Just another stupid idea from unwitting beaurocrats.
I am not talking about AAA or AA batteries. I am talking about the MBP batteries Apple used to use from 2009-2012.

Yes, water resistance is very important but underwater cameras have that too... sooo. :)

It is likely the form factor for swappable batteries would mean less mAh batteries to be put in place to make more remove for the battery casing.
 

iOS Geek

macrumors 68000
Nov 7, 2017
1,658
3,443
Like the US government doesn't tell companies how to run their business? Like no lead in gasoline.
Difference is that is the US government telling US companies how to run their businesses. This is a foreign government dictating how a US company is to run their business. Big difference.

And on top of that...leaded gasoline is an actual health/safety risk. User swappable batteries...not the same risk. I'm really starting to think "mandate" is one of the only words in the EU's vocabulary. I'd actually argue that it's even MORE irritating than when our OWN government does it, because at least I have a say in US government elections and which annoying pain in the neck does the "mandating".

But this isn't meant to be a political thread. So I'll leave it at this.
 
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macfacts

macrumors 603
Oct 7, 2012
5,389
6,374
Cybertron
Difference is that is the US government telling US companies how to run their businesses. This is a foreign government dictating how a US company is to run their business. Big difference.

And on top of that...leaded gasoline is an actual health/safety risk. User swappable batteries...not the same risk. I'm really starting to think "mandate" is one of the only words in the EU's vocabulary. I'd actually argue that it's even MORE irritating than when our OWN government does it, because at least I have a say in US government elections and which annoying pain in the neck does the "mandating".

But this isn't meant to be a political thread. So I'll leave it at this.
EU has the right to block the sales of devices that do t conform to their laws, apple is free to not sell in EU.
 

iOS Geek

macrumors 68000
Nov 7, 2017
1,658
3,443
EU has the right to block the sales of devices that do t conform to their laws, apple is free to not sell in EU.
Correct. Then their laws and the effects of which should end at their borders. They have no right to dictate how something is done EVERYWHERE. Your rules end where your authority ends. Just like the state I live in can't make any laws or any other rules for our neighboring states and vice versa (something that I'm sure people in each of those states are VERY thankful for 😂)

If this mandate applies ONLY to the EU...then fine. If they want it worldwide, then get bent, EU.
 
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