News: EU mandating changeable batteries starting 2027

[subjonas]

Tentatively good. Didn’t get a chance to read the article yet, but I’m in favor of laws that move us toward environmental sustainability (for which I think non-easily-replaceable batteries is a problem)—because if left to ourselves, the free market won’t get it done—it’s up to voters (and authoritarian governments I guess?).
I don’t see this as a consumer protection law, although it is too because it makes it easier to own devices for longer. But it also takes away consumer choice for sleeker devices. But consumer choice is superseded by environmental sustainability, because if we don’t have that, we won’t have consumers.

Edit- Actually, I should say, the choice of the consumer is superseded by the law of the voter, which I hope is mindful of environmental sustainability (otherwise, we won’t have voters or consumers).

 

[thegerman]

Nobody is above us 🇪🇺❤️

 

[JPack]

Makes sense to me. Anybody can tell Apple's Self Repair program for iPhone is clearly aimed at deterring actual self repair.

The program involves shipping 79 lb of tools to the customer. Apple literally ships the same bulky tools that ASPs get from China which are intended to process thousands of repairs per month. Jony Ive probably had nightmares seeing it the first time. You must also agree to a $1,300 credit card hold in the event you or the courier loses any of the tools. No end-user will choose to do this.

Ideally, legislation shouldn't be necessary, but in this case it really is.

 

[subjonas]

If I'm interpreting this right (which is a bit hard due to the usual vagueness of these laws) it would have more impact on the type of screws Apple uses than anything. With regular screw types you wouldn't need any special tooling and "anyone" could open and replace batteries.

Apple batteries usually have pull tabs that releases the glued battery just by using your hands. So that wouldn't be a problem.

There are probably some loop holes that will be explored as per usual.

For me, for the battery to be easily replaceable, it’s more about doing away with the whole suction cup and wedge tool and hoping you don’t break any seals, displays, cables, etc. when opening up the device, then hoping you properly reconnected all the cables or whatever other components when closing it up. I’ve don’t this a couple times, they were ordeals that took a long time, and one phone I somehow ruined the display although I checked and rechecked all the connections. Also I broke the glue tabs on one battery and had to pry it out which took forever.
To me the type of screw is the most immaterial aspect of it, because I can just buy whichever screwdriver for a couple dollars. But it’s the other things where a lot can go wrong.
This would be in contrast to just popping open a battery compartment (with screws I’m sure), and switching out the battery with just the battery connector to worry about.

 

[Analog Kid]

Smartphones with user replaceable batteries are few and far in between.

Apple does not offer one. Can you point to a Samsung one? Xiaomi? OPPO? vivo? Any other brands?

Are there tablets with user replaceable batteries? Apple never had one. Samsung? Amazon? Huawei? Lenovo? Any other brands?

How about wireless earphones?

Last Mac laptop that had it was over a decade ago.

Remember when LG decided to stop making phones? They were reasonably good at it, but they couldn't find enough customers to make it worth while. You'd think if there was a huge number of customers who really valued replaceable batteries that LG would have done that to stay in the game.

But here's the thing: customers do value replaceable batteries, but they value other things more.

Engineering is the art of tradeoffs. You can't have everything you want, so you need to figure out how to find a combination that works. Size, reliability, performance, battery life, features... Serviceability. When you prioritize one over the others, the others suffer. Nature of the business.

Companies spend their energy figuring out what people most want to gain a competitive advantage. This leads to the best products for people. When people value size and reliability over serviceability, we get smaller phones that can fall in a toilet and live, but that we need to take for service every 5 years or whatever if we want a new battery (I typically keep my phones that long or longer without needing to replace the battery).

So, if you ask consumers if they'd like cheaply and easily replaceable batteries, the answer will be yes. I'd answer yes. I'd like to be able to do that. If you ask consumers what they're willing to sacrifice to gain that capability, things start to take a different shape.

The problem with these forums is things like this:

Actually I'm wondering why they don't just make the stems as a screw on.

Do you notice the word "just" in there? Apple has thousands of engineers working on products like this for a decade but forum people, for some reason, think they know the easy fix. "Guys, guys, guys... You just have to give it a twist!".

And this:

Unscrew the backplate then insert fresh new batter via friction.

Ah, friction! Brilliant! Who cares about wear and contact resistance in a product that sees continuous shock and vibration and spends enormous design effort to squeeze out every Joule from the battery. And screws! No chance of stripping those little guys, over torquing, under torquing, or compromising an environmental seal anywhere.


So many people here think they know the answer to questions that these massive organizations have been studying for years. So many others think this is some major conspiracy. People are convincing themselves that there are no tradeoffs involved because they simply don't understand how things are designed and built, especially in quantities of hundreds of millions.


If e-waste is an issue, tax e-waste. Tax it high enough to incentivize people to create less of it and to mitigate what they do create. Governments should manage and regulate negative externalities like pollution. They shouldn't mandate engineering design decisions because that's the path to unintended consequences. This and the USB-C nonsense are mandating engineering decisions and we will be worse off for it.

 

[MallardDuck]

If e-waste is an issue, tax e-waste. Tax it high enough to incentivize people to create less of it and to mitigate what they do create. Governments should manage and regulate negative externalities like pollution. They shouldn't mandate engineering design decisions because that's the path to unintended consequences. This and the USB-C nonsense are mandating engineering decisions and we will be worse off for it.

Very well said. Though I have to admit mixed feelings about USB-C. It's like the smoking bans - I oppose them on civil liberty and free market principles....but from a practical standpoint both those I rather like.

The fire risk from batteries is very much an issue. Make them replaceable, and people will use cheap ebay knockoffs, then try to either sue Apple when their house burns down, or insist on warranty coverage when it fries the innards. Your points about friction and jostling are right on point as well - the glue is there to keep the battery from abrading against other components and short out. If you remove the glue, you'll have to add back in shielding - which adds weight and bulk (that's why apple did away with it to begin with). Do people really want phones that are 2x heavier and thicker? Nope.

There's a lot of this 'regulate/mandate it' mentality without any engineering or technical path to achieving those results, or worse, when physics or mathematics are in the way. You can pass a law saying Pi is 3, but that doesn't mean that it is.

 

[Analog Kid]

Very well said. Though I have to admit mixed feelings about USB-C. It's like the smoking bans - I oppose them on civil liberty and free market principles....but from a practical standpoint both those I rather like.

I put smoking bans (and someone else mentioned banning lead in gasoline) in the "negative externalities" category. Lead in fuels in particular because the impact is so broad. Smoking bans have the same concern over a smaller area. One persons decision directly impacts the health of many others. This is also why I though the EU RoHS regulations were good to have-- they directly regulate the concern to mitigate a negative externality.

The USB-C thing though, there's no negative externality there, it's just government reacting to letters they get from constituents with too much time to write.

 

[sunapple]

For me, for the battery to be easily replaceable, it’s more about doing away with the whole suction cup and wedge tool and hoping you don’t break any seals, displays, cables, etc. when opening up the device, then hoping you properly reconnected all the cables or whatever other components when closing it up. I’ve don’t this a couple times, they were ordeals that took a long time, and one phone I somehow ruined the display although I checked and rechecked all the connections. Also I broke the glue tabs on one battery and had to pry it out which took forever.
To me the type of screw is the most immaterial aspect of it, because I can just buy whichever screwdriver for a couple dollars. But it’s the other things where a lot can go wrong.
This would be in contrast to just popping open a battery compartment (with screws I’m sure), and switching out the battery with just the battery connector to worry about.

For iPhone 14 they actually changed the design so that you can access the battery via the back instead of having to remove the display. Saves some steps and avoids some risks.

To replace the suction cup procedure they would have to come up with a new way to make the phone water resistant. I wonder if people who are against glue and seals also care about the IP rating.

 

[rpmurray]

Do you notice the word "just" in there? Apple has thousands of engineers working on products like this for a decade but forum people, for some reason, think they know the easy fix. "Guys, guys, guys... You just have to give it a twist!".

Actually, my comment was sarcastic. I know the reason Apple didn't do this is because they would much prefer to have us buy new AirPods instead, and landfill the ones when the batteries will no longer charge. Form over functionality.

 

[Analog Kid]

Easily removable batteries also facilitate recycling/disposal once a device reaches end-of-life. It's awfully hard to separate glued batteries from other components without specialized equipment, and the risk of puncturing or otherwise damaging the batteries is much higher than if they were easily removable.

No. User serviceable anything runs counter to recycling and safe disposal. What do you think is more likely to get recycled, a million people with batteries they replaced in their kitchens or a million batteries aggregated at Apple stores? Which are more likely to wind up in the bin because, despite the brief twinge of guilt, everyone feels like they're just one person and surely everyone else is doing the right thing?

Apple will use 100 percent recycled cobalt in batteries by 2025

Apple today announced a new 2025 target to use 100 percent recycled cobalt in all Apple-designed batteries.

www.apple.com

The Daisy robots that exist aren't running at capacity yet because people don't bring their old phones back to be recycled. If they're not bringing their old phones back, do you think they'll bring their old batteries back?

 

[Analog Kid]

Actually, my comment was sarcastic. I know the reason Apple didn't do this is because they would much prefer to have us buy new AirPods instead, and landfill the ones when the batteries will no longer charge. Form over functionality.

Do you think they'd be more functional if the battery was user serviceable? With Airpods, the form pretty much enables the functionality.

Why are you landfilling Airpods? That's the problem right there-- not with Apple, but with the people who only care enough to complain in a forum but not actually take steps to reduce the ewaste they have control of. It's easy to say "Apple doesn't want me to", when the reality is most people are just too lazy to take responsibility for their own behavior patterns and are happy for the excuse.

If the EU put a 100 euro deposit on the purchase of Airpods refundable when delivered to a recycler, maybe you'd do the right thing? Better yet, charge Apple or Samsung the cost of the negative consequence between the products they sell minus the products they retrieve at end of life and let Apple figure out the right incentive plan to get stuff back and to a recycler.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Do you think they'd be more functional if the battery was user serviceable? With Airpods, the form pretty much enables the functionality.

Why are you landfilling Airpods? That's the problem right there-- not with Apple, but with the people who only care enough to complain in a forum but not actually take steps to reduce the ewaste they have control of. It's easy to say "Apple doesn't want me to", when the reality is most people are just too lazy to take responsibility for their own behavior patterns and are happy for the excuse.

If the EU put a 100 euro deposit on the purchase of Airpods refundable when delivered to a recycler, maybe you'd do the right thing? Better yet, charge Apple or Samsung the cost of the negative consequence between the products they sell minus the products they retrieve at end of life and let Apple figure out the right incentive plan to get stuff back and to a recycler.

Absolutely. They already do with car tires and car batteries. If you don’t give the used tire or battery at time of purchase they charge 20-30$ more and refund after you bring the old ones back to store for recycling.

 

[subjonas]

For iPhone 14 they actually changed the design so that you can access the battery via the back instead of having to remove the display. Saves some steps and avoids some risks.

To replace the suction cup procedure they would have to come up with a new way to make the phone water resistant. I wonder if people who are against glue and seals also care about the IP rating.

That’s good they changed it to the back plate if it doesn’t have any cables connected to it. Accidentally damaging connections by suddenly pulling off the display too far was a big point of worry/stress, and made it awkward to take apart and put back together.

Yeah higher water resistance in a thin device is likely the big trade off. For me, battery replacement is tied to environmental sustainability, so it’s well worth the trade off.

 

[Richu]

Because short battery life is a major factor in people's decisions to buy a new device.

If you could replace the battery on your own — at home, quickly — many would hold off replacing their devices. Just order a replacement battery and install it yourself. Bam! Your device is now good for a couple more years.

in contrast, there is a big hassle factor in finding someone to replace the battery and issues if you mail it into Apple — keep in mind that millions do not have an Apple Store near them. Plus, who would want to drive 100 miles just for a more expensive Apple battery replacement? In addition, labor costs are part of their price. User-installable batteries would be cheaper — again, making that less of a factor in replacing a device.

What's more, with user-replaceable batteries, there'd be no labor cost! There'd also be no downtime. If you have to mail the device in — there are an host of downsides and concerns, insuring the device, worrying about damage during shipping, turnaround time, being without the device, etc.

We recently bought an iPad 9 as our iPad Air 2's battery life had shortened greatly, especially with iOS 15. If we could have simply bought a quick drop in replacement, we would have done so.

Likewise, our 2015 13” MBA has much shorter battery life now and we have to keep plugging it in. We'll likely buy a new 13” or 15” MBA. If the battery were easily replaceable by us, we'd do it and hold off upgrading for a while.

In both cases, user-replaceable battery would extend the product's lives…

Many would replace but not a meaningful portion of the user base. As someone mentioned people barely want to open the hood of their car or change their tires themselves. This feature would be for us geeks (e.g. minimal impact and not worth designintresserad for)

 

[Pezimak]

This is excellent news I think. Although I have one and love it and it’s design, I hate the fact that when the battery expires my Apple Watch becomes an item destined for the bin no matter what, as it’s designed in a way that it will be destroyed if you try to take it apart to replace the battery. And it’s probably the same for all smart watches. then we have phones that are screwed AND glued together, require special security torx screw bits, heating pads or devices just to replace a battery, in your £1400 phone.
Manufactures went down this route as it made it far cheaper and easier for them, to make the designs they have, it allows for massive profit increase at the end of the day. Sure we get lovely designs but they are not designed to last for the average consumer. And obviously in Apples case it’s laptops are the same, even your £7000 one. So I find this news to be positive. Less ewaste. It will be a design challenge though for sure for phones and I guess tablets. Not for laptops as many on the market have replaceable batteries still.

 

[Wando64]

Actually they did, with their wallets.

Lovely.
My wallet is ready. Can you kindly point me to an iOS phone with user swappable battery?

Looking forward to exercise my ability to choose as a consumer.

 

[snow755]

With EU rules and regulations 1st with usb C and now this I have a feeling that apple may just pull out of the EU all together and discounted selling apple products all together this is getting ridiculous at this point

samsung may end up doing the same thing has well but Samsung all ready had removable battery back in the old days so it may not have A choice in the matter to bring it back in newer phones but apple may be a completeley different story

 

[Pezimak]

What about AppleWatch, Airpods etc?

I think headphones will be exempt maybe due to size? Watches shouldn’t be, but it may be difficult to design them to have user replaceable batteries, however Apple could actually make it so your Apple Watch isn’t totally destroyed by design if you take it apart to change the battery like it is currently. Only Smart Watches are glued together I think, and require daily charging for the most part too.
I actually wonder how much less chemicals will be used if they used screws instead of glue? All that glue needs chemicals to make it.

 

[Pezimak]

If I read https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/TA-9-2023-0237_EN.pdf correctly (article 11), it will fully apply to them. This will be interesting.

Oh snap.. will be interesting to see earphones have replaceable batteries.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The article, at least the English language one, doesn't say squat. I'm assuming you read the article, so let me ask: One of the bullet items says that the law requires "A due diligence policy for all economic operators, except for SMEs".

• Due diligence in regards to what?
• What is an economic operator?
• What's an SME?

What it does say is that they need to eventually publish what they agreed to "Following the final vote in plenary, the Council will now have to formally endorse the text before its publication in the EU Official Journal shortly after". It hasn't been published yet.

Every EU regulation seems to go through this-- there's a little happy note that gets published when a new regulation passes committee, but I cannot, for the life of me, find the text that was agreed upon. There's a link to an agenda with links to content that I'm sure I could comb through if I had the time, but when I have in the past, I find the end document also assumes you've been following every discussion to date and understand current law.

Note: thanks @klasma for finding a link with information in it.

Because that's not how rules are made. The commission makes the rules and the council(representative leaders from member nations) and parlament (elected representatives) must agree on the text and vote on it.

Most legislations have two documents. The legal text and the explanation of the goal, why, how and defenitions of terms

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The European Council still has to approve the regulation (a formality), and it has to be published in the Official Journal to become effective. Then there’s 3.5 years before it becomes compulsory. It’ll be on the front page soon enough. We’re just ahead of the curve for once here in the forum.

Lol, it's not a formality. The council is independent from the parlament and they negotiate first instead of wasting time voting on somthing without knowing if council approves or not

 

[Bodhitree]

This seems like a good change to me… most of the devices I have retired in the last decade have been because of failing batteries, and if I could have replaced them myself they would have lasted a fair bit longer.

Reducing e-waste is good. Gogo the EU Parliament!

 

[klasma]

Lol, it's not a formality. The council is independent from the parlament and they negotiate first instead of wasting time voting on somthing without knowing if council approves or not

It’s largely a formality at this point because it has already been extensively negotiated (https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...reate-a-sustainable-life-cycle-for-batteries/).

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Difference is that is the US government telling US companies how to run their businesses. This is a foreign government dictating how a US company is to run their business. Big difference.

And on top of that...leaded gasoline is an actual health/safety risk. User swappable batteries...not the same risk. I'm really starting to think "mandate" is one of the only words in the EU's vocabulary. I'd actually argue that it's even MORE irritating than when our OWN government does it, because at least I have a say in US government elections and which annoying pain in the neck does the "mandating".

But this isn't meant to be a political thread. So I'll leave it at this.

I'm sorry but you don't think the US Government dosent tell EU companies who do do their buisnesses when selling to US consumers?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Correct. Then their laws and the effects of which should end at their borders. They have no right to dictate how something is done EVERYWHERE. Your rules end where your authority ends. Just like the state I live in can't make any laws or any other rules for our neighboring states and vice versa (something that I'm sure people in each of those states are VERY thankful for 😂)

If this mandate applies ONLY to the EU...then fine. If they want it worldwide, then get bent, EU.

It has never been different. How could you ever belive EU made laws outside their jurisdiction?

It’s largely a formality at this point because it has already been extensively negotiated (https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/...reate-a-sustainable-life-cycle-for-batteries/).

It absolutely isn't The case

For an act to be adopted under the ordinary legislative procedure, the co-legislators must at some point during the procedure agree on a common text acceptable to both the Parliament and the Council. This requires that the institutions talk to each other, which takes place in the form of trilogues: informal tripartite meetings on legislative proposals between representatives of the Parliament, Council and Commission.


Trilogues may be organised at any stage of the legislative procedure and can lead to what are known as 'first reading', 'early second reading' or 'second reading' agreements, or to a 'joint text' during conciliation. Trilogues consist of political
negotiations, although trilogues may be preceded by preparatory technical meetings (attended by the three institutions' experts). The main tool of work is the four-column document: the first three columns present each of the three institutions' respective positions and the last one is reserved for compromise proposals'. During trilogue meetings, which are chaired by the co-legislator hosting the meeting (i.e. either Parliament or the Council), each institution explains its position and a discussion in view of finding a compromise develops.

The Commission acts as a mediator with a view to facilitating an agreement between the co-legislators. The participants in trilogues operate on the basis of negotiating mandates given to them by their respective institutions. The three delegations explore possible avenues of compromise in an informal manner and report back or seek new instructions on a regular basis according to their respective institutions' internal rules, i.e. via the negotiating team and/or in committee for Parliament, in Coreper or the responsible working party for Council (see the flowchart above).

Any agreement in trilogues is provisional and has to be approved by the formal procedures applicable within each institution