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compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
D3x is king of which hill? Landscape? Fashion? Surely not for anything requiring speed...

If you're a fan of spray-and-pray, then no- however it's still much faster than manual wind film cameras, and it outperforms my first motor drive film camera as well- as a matter of fact, its almost twice as fast as my LAST 35mm film camera (8008s- 3.3FPS) was. You'd think nobody got good images before anything got to ~8FPS the way people harp on about speed.

But as I said there's either "Well-suited for what I do" or "Not well-suited for what I do." I went with the D3x because it's well-suited for what I do. If I'd have wanted to spray and pray in the dark, I'd have gotten a D3.

The fact that if you twist the numbers right it outperforms at least one MF back pretty-much puts it at the top of the hill though. Time will tell what happens when Canon finally gets out a 1DsIV or 2Ds though- but I'm not worried about that- my IQ doesn't seem to diminish when a new body comes along- I'm still shooting with my D2x at times when I need a different lens than the D3x is attached to.

Paul
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,559
13,408
Alaska
a year ago i decided to buy a dSLR - i tested a nikon D90 and a Canon 40D.. I preferred the nikon - just personal pref..

with no previous lens baggage I was free to make a choice, but once you buy in to one family of lenses and accessories of course its then easier to stick with that make...


but for a first but its all preference:)


_[__]_
§(-_-)§

A couple of years ago I decided to buy a a DSLR camera. I tested the Nikon D90 and the Canon 40D, and chose the Canon 40D. It's just personal preference. But I did have a few Canon lenses, too. I just have gotten used to the Canon button layout.
 

carlgo

macrumors 68000
Dec 29, 2006
1,806
17
Monterey CA
It also depends on which cameras in each company's line you are talking about. They each make a zillion different cameras with completely different specs, designs, materials, lenses, etc. So, one might have a better entry level P&S, the other a better entry level DSLR and so on.

My last three cameras have been Nikons. All have been totally reliable and operate as expected. This has been my incentive to stay with this brand. Now, if Canon came out with some compelling technology, something clearly superior, then it would be silly not to switch on my next purchase. If I won the lotto, I would get a Leica or something even more astonishingly expensive and sniff arrogantly at those lesser brands...
 

AlaskaMoose

macrumors 68040
Apr 26, 2008
3,559
13,408
Alaska
It also depends on which cameras in each company's line you are talking about. They each make a zillion different cameras with completely different specs, designs, materials, lenses, etc. So, one might have a better entry level P&S, the other a better entry level DSLR and so on.

My last three cameras have been Nikons. All have been totally reliable and operate as expected. This has been my incentive to stay with this brand. Now, if Canon came out with some compelling technology, something clearly superior, then it would be silly not to switch on my next purchase. If I won the lotto, I would get a Leica or something even more astonishingly expensive and sniff arrogantly at those lesser brands...

Yes, they both offer equally nice products depending on customer need. I have had nothing but reliability form the last two Canon cameras I have purchased. The first was a Rebel XT which I still use, and then a Canon 40D. So, after a few Canon lenses, I plan to stay with Canon.

I still have a Nikon F3 HP SLR film camera with a motor drive and a few lenses, and it was a real nice camera back in its days.
 

Westside guy

macrumors 603
Oct 15, 2003
6,403
4,269
The soggy side of the Pacific NW
This was a much simpler choice six years ago (or so). The Nikon D70 had been released, and it was SUCH a big jump over the original Digital Rebel (which we had at work) the choice was a no-brainer. At the lower end there just wasn't much else there. I had been shooting a Pentax K1000 (film), and Pentax was just getting into the digital game at that time with the *ist IIRC - but that just fell short.

Nowadays there are just so many valid options. I have such a bad habit of over-analyzing that, if I were jumping into the market now, I'd probably be paralyzed with indecision. :D
 

firestarter

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2002
5,506
227
Green and pleasant land
Both Nikon and Canon leapfrog each other as time passes, and in each price band in the market one or other manufacturer will be top.

I'm going to take a leap here and assume you're a newbie, looking for a low end DSLR body (I'm guessing you wouldn't be asking this question if you had more experience with DSLRs).

For me, Nikon's lack of autofocus motor in its new low end DSLR bodies makes it a poorer choice for a first DSLR. While low end Nikons and Canons coupled with their kit lenses are pretty equivalent, the lack of focus motor on the Nikon side means you have a really reduced choice of lenses to upgrade to. Most important in my book is the 'nifty 50 f1.8' - which won't autofocus on the low end Nikon bodies.

I really have no axe to grind here. Having switched systems a few times I think brand loyalty is ridiculous!
 

Maxxamillian

macrumors 6502
Nov 16, 2004
359
0
Utah
If you're a fan of spray-and-pray, then no- however it's still much faster than manual wind film cameras, and it outperforms my first motor drive film camera as well- as a matter of fact, its almost twice as fast as my LAST 35mm film camera (8008s- 3.3FPS) was. You'd think nobody got good images before anything got to ~8FPS the way people harp on about speed.

But as I said there's either "Well-suited for what I do" or "Not well-suited for what I do." I went with the D3x because it's well-suited for what I do. If I'd have wanted to spray and pray in the dark, I'd have gotten a D3.

The fact that if you twist the numbers right it outperforms at least one MF back pretty-much puts it at the top of the hill though. Time will tell what happens when Canon finally gets out a 1DsIV or 2Ds though- but I'm not worried about that- my IQ doesn't seem to diminish when a new body comes along- I'm still shooting with my D2x at times when I need a different lens than the D3x is attached to.

Paul

This makes sense. Being a D3 shooter (a spray-n-prayer?? ;) ) I've always looked at the D3x as more a niche product. However, after more research (thanks to this thread) I am officially tempted.

Hmmmm….multiple Elinchrom Rangers or D3x...
 

Nostromo

macrumors 65816
Dec 26, 2009
1,358
2
Deep Space
You can't really make a mistake buying either a Canon or a Nikon.

Just be sure to handle all the cameras before you get them.

Look at the viewfinders. If you want a good one, you need to get one with a pentaprism.

Biggest mistake people make when buying a camera is sink all the money in the body and put a crappy lens in front.
 

El Cabong

macrumors 6502a
Dec 1, 2008
620
339
You can't really make a mistake buying either a Canon or a Nikon.

I know a couple of people who bought D40s and regretted it, namely for not being able to autofocus an AF-D nifty fifty on them because of Nikon's insidious cost-cutting/upgrade-forcing measure of removing the in-camera autofocus motor. It's easy to say that the D40/60/3000/5000 are just starter cameras that will be eventually discarded, or that learning manual focus (with lenses that are specifically designed to autofocus...) is a good thing; in the end, though, it's simply a missing feature that can stifle the interest of a burgeoning photographer. So, that's one way buying a Nikon could be seen as a mistake.

I shoot Nikon, btw. Also, I've never owned a D40/60/3000/5000.
 

luminosity

macrumors 65816
Jan 10, 2006
1,364
0
Arizona
I have and I agree with all that. I really dislike the lack of in-body autofocus and I do think it limits developing photographers It's great for the masses that won't go past the kit lens, but it's a problem for as long as Nikon still has a large amount of AF-D lenses as their top lens at a given focal length.
 

oogieboogiex

macrumors newbie
Aug 2, 2009
29
0
Toronto
I am getting into digital... for me, when I started to do any photography i went whole hog in 1983 or so and got a new Nikon F3, a Nikkor 35-105, and a speedlight. I picked up an e-series lens later used.

Admittedly i got out of film some time ago, but was recently researching decent used dslrs

Good friend at work uses Canon, loves them. I plan on sticking with Nikon because I am familiar and the mount remains the same, giving me at least a small start on lenses. But in talking to him, we've discovered there is not much to choose between them... both very good, and a lot comes down to preference, from what i can see.

For the time being though, I grabbed a Fuji Finepix 1500fd... not bad for a middle ground between p+s and dslr...
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
I have and I agree with all that. I really dislike the lack of in-body autofocus and I do think it limits developing photographers It's great for the masses that won't go past the kit lens, but it's a problem for as long as Nikon still has a large amount of AF-D lenses as their top lens at a given focal length.

Nikon does not have a "large amount" of AF-D lenses as their top lenses in a given focal length. So, now we've gotten that out of the way, it's time to complain that their top lenses in a give focal length aren't as cheap as lenses manufactured for decades...

The fact is that most photographers only have one lens, and Nikon's been slowly creeping that number upwards over the last few years, but the average is still less than two. It's more of a perceived issue than a real issue for most photographers- and frankly most people who it would apply to will likely be on their second body by the time it limits them anyway- and at this point in time, that's likely to have AF-D compatibility.

Lest anyone think that AF is a "killer" thing, Nikon will still sell you at least eight manual-focus-only lenses, and Zeiss's newish ZF series for Nikon are all MF only as well.

Most of the modern zooms beat the pants off the older prime designs and the once venerable, but hugely expensive 14mm sucks on digital. Heck, even the old 20-35mm beats or nearly beats the 24mm prime depending on who you talk to. Look at the MTF charts for the 24mm AF-D lens, then look at the charts for the 12-24 at 24mm, then finally look at the 14-24 at 24mm- now look at the 14mm prime and the 14-24 at 14mm. The 14-24mm is good enough to take out all three AF-D primes in its range.

Here's a list of Nikon's "best" lenses- not a one of them isn't AF-S.

12-24mm
14-24mm
17-35mm
50mm
60mm
24-70mm
85mm
105mm
70-200mm
200mm
200-400mm
300mm f/4
300mm f/2.8
400mm
500mm
600mm

While I think it's unfortunate for folks on a budget who already own Nikkor AF-D lenses, the fact is that Nikon's consumer lenses mostly don't suck and the used market's prices over the last year have gotten big enough that it's not the bargain it once was. Optics have come far enough that today, even Sigma can beat the performance of many AF-D primes with zoom lenses, especially in the DX portion of the frame that all the non-screwdriver bodies have.

The new "handhold-able" 300mm f/2.88 VR is interesting. The only real "holes" in Nikon's lens lineup is an f/4 70-200 and an update to the 80-400VR. At this point, there have to be around fifty lenses that AF on all Nikon bodies between Nikon, Sigma and Tamron
 

El Cabong

macrumors 6502a
Dec 1, 2008
620
339
Nikon does not have a "large amount" of AF-D lenses as their top lenses in a given focal length. So, now we've gotten that out of the way, it's time to complain that their top lenses in a give focal length aren't as cheap as lenses manufactured for decades...
[...]
Here's a list of Nikon's "best" lenses- not a one of them isn't AF-S.

Not to nitpick, but, you listed "85mm" as one of Nikon's "best" lenses, which I'm assuming is the 85mm f/3.5 DX Macro (aka Micro). However, it isn't a replacement for the 85mm f/1.4D or f/1.8D, though there's a rumored prime refresh coming next year. Similarly, the 105mm f/2.8 AF-S Macro isn't a replacement for the 105mm DC f/2D, nor is there a real AF-S equivalent for focal lengths you didn't list, such as the 135mm DC f/2D, or either of Nikon's fisheyes. All of these remain listed on Nikon's website (at least their US site - couldn't be bothered to check others).

Of course, these aren't necessarily lenses that the majority of new camera owners, or really, photographers in general, would be interested in, but they are nevertheless inaccessible - at least, to an extent - to the entry-level Nikon user. In addition, those with less money to spend can get good deals on useful older lenses, particularly the 50mm f/1.8D or the 35-70mm f/2.8D, but also some of the (admittedly surpassed by the newer zooms) f/2.8 primes. There are also a few third-party lenses that either lack versions with built-in autofocus or have cheaper body-driven versions.

In any case, I just think that when people choose to buy a budget camera, they should be able to use budget lenses (to their full functionality, FX/DX quibbles aside) on them, instead of having to (ironically) upgrade in order to do so.
 

firestarter

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2002
5,506
227
Green and pleasant land
Nikon does not have a "large amount" of AF-D lenses as their top lenses in a given focal length. So, now we've gotten that out of the way, it's time to complain that their top lenses in a give focal length aren't as cheap as lenses manufactured for decades...

Compuwar - after your promising first post in this thread calmly stating how any camera is adequate, you now seem to have switched back into full Nikon fanboy mode.

This post of yours is completely misdirected. You're arguing that Nikon's top lenses aren't AF-D, they're AF-S. Well guess what, you're completely correct! Nikon's new expensive great glass is AF-S, but these aren't the lenses that a low end SLR owner will buy as their second lens after the kit one!

The advantage of the Canon, Minolta/Sony and Pentax systems is that the newbie owner has their pick of pretty good autofocus prime and zoom lenses for not much money. How about a 20mm 2.8 / 50mm 1.8 / 85mm 1.8 kit? Can on a Canon, can't on the Nikon (at least not with autofocus).

And while we're at it, a newbie with a low end body isn't typically going to be in the market for manual focus.
And the fact that Nikon's AF-D wide angle primes suck so badly that 'the 14-24mm is good enough to take out all three AF-D primes' isn't something to be proud of.
 

luminosity

macrumors 65816
Jan 10, 2006
1,364
0
Arizona
While I very much respect your thoughts, compuwar, you cannot realistically expect to hold up the 14-24 as a replacement for top-notch WA primes, mainly because of the cost issue (not quality, as the 14-24 gives up nothing to anything).

You also cannot possibly be serious about the 85/3.5 being the top lens at that focal length. The 85/1.4 must still be considered as such, and the new macro lens cannot be used normally on the D3/x/s/700 or any film camera. "Except for this, this and that, it's the top lens," basically. There's also the 85/1.8, which I think would all but supplant the 85/1.4 if it was updated as an AF-S lens and the 1.4 wasn't. The same goes for the 50/1.8 to some extent, though the 50/1.4 has already been updated.
 

DELINDA

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jun 13, 2008
116
0
Nikon vs Canon

I had no idea my question would provoke such input . Thank you everyone . The reason I asked which was better , is , a friend has N and I have C . The war began . His is a D90 nikon , mine ,are you ready ? Canon G 10 . It was a classical David & Goliath . Not mention he has a Ba and well I don't . The forum was to be my sling shot . Your answers will be a great help next we meet . Personally I think my photo's are just as good maybe even better . It's not always the tool but the craftsmen that can use it . :>):p
 

firestarter

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2002
5,506
227
Green and pleasant land
I had no idea my question would provoke such input . Thank you everyone . The reason I asked which was better , is , a friend has N and I have C . The war began . His is a D90 nikon , mine ,are you ready ? Canon G 10 . It was a classical David & Goliath . Not mention he has a Ba and well I don't . The forum was to be my sling shot . Your answers will be a great help next we meet .

Are you really 63? This makes you sound more like a 12 year old...
 

Westside guy

macrumors 603
Oct 15, 2003
6,403
4,269
The soggy side of the Pacific NW
Like I said earlier - these threads always start out nice. But eventually they inexorably devolve into fanboi silliness.

And while we're at it, a newbie with a low end body isn't typically going to be in the market for manual focus.

Fact is, a newbie with a lowend body isn't typically going to be in the market for any lens other than the kit lens. Doesn't matter if it's Nikon, Canon, Pentax, what have you. Making arguments based on the lack of AF-S in older Nikon lenses is about as relevant as castigating Canon for having a different lens mount on their older glass.

And the fact that Nikon's AF-D wide angle primes suck so badly that 'the 14-24mm is good enough to take out all three AF-D primes' isn't something to be proud of.

This is just laughable fanboi talk at its worst. Galen Rowell regularly used some of those "sucky" AF-D primes - but heck, what did he know? He only pretty much invented the concept of 35mm landscape photographer. But the 14-24 is better - the consensus opinion is the Nikon 14-24 zoom is an awesome lens.
 

luminosity

macrumors 65816
Jan 10, 2006
1,364
0
Arizona
Like I said earlier - these threads always start out nice. But eventually they inexorably devolve into fanboi silliness.



Fact is, a newbie with a lowend body isn't typically going to be in the market for any lens other than the kit lens. Doesn't matter if it's Nikon, Canon, Pentax, what have you. Making arguments based on the lack of AF-S in older Nikon lenses is about as relevant as castigating Canon for having a different lens mount on their older glass.



This is just laughable fanboi talk at its worst. Galen Rowell regularly used some of those "sucky" AF-D primes - but heck, what did he know? He only pretty much invented the concept of 35mm landscape photographer. But the 14-24 is better - the consensus opinion is the Nikon 14-24 zoom is an awesome lens.

Of course it's better. I don't think anyone who knows Nikon lenses would ever dispute that. But, where it isn't better is weight. Canon has made two 24/1.4s in the time since Nikon released the 24/2.8D. It's a lot easier to carry around the 20/24/28/35 primes than it is the 14-24.
 

firestarter

macrumors 603
Dec 31, 2002
5,506
227
Green and pleasant land
This is just laughable fanboi talk at its worst. Galen Rowell regularly used some of those "sucky" AF-D primes - but heck, what did he know? He only pretty much invented the concept of 35mm landscape photographer. But the 14-24 is better - the consensus opinion is the Nikon 14-24 zoom is an awesome lens.

Yes, that's all very well - but how is that relevant to the OP, who just wants to prove to his buddy with a Nikon D90 that a Canon G10 is better?

Please read the thread before responding! :rolleyes: (Claps slowly)
 

joelypolly

macrumors 6502a
Sep 14, 2003
517
232
Bay Area
Canon.... hands down... or maybe Nikon... I donno or maybe Pentax.... perhaps Sony....
At the end of the day they all take photos and that's really all you want from a camera. How you want to get here is all up to you. If you can take better photos with a Canon G over your friends D90 then you are perhaps a better photographer than your friend. Your tools can only take you so far before you run into your limits similarly you tools may limit your ability if they are unsuited to the job.
 

compuwar

macrumors 601
Oct 5, 2006
4,717
2
Northern/Central VA
Not to nitpick, but, you listed "85mm" as one of Nikon's "best" lenses, which I'm assuming is the 85mm f/3.5 DX Macro (aka Micro). However, it isn't a replacement for the 85mm f/1.4D or f/1.8D, though there's a rumored prime refresh coming next year. Similarly, the

There have been "rumored prime refreshes" for the last 5 years. Nikon's lens folks haven't been driven by marketing outside of the superzoom and kit lenses that get released with each new body. They still get to work a lot on what interests them.

If you've spent less money on your body and you need a macro, then the Tamron 90mm SP Di works fine on your low-end body and works well for portraits too- no big hole there.

105mm f/2.8 AF-S Macro isn't a replacement for the 105mm DC f/2D, nor is there a real AF-S equivalent for focal lengths you didn't list, such as the

The 105 DC was never a heavily popular lens, and frankly the DC portion is generally better-served with PS these days anyway. The 105VR is a replacement for the 105 Micro, which has always been on the short list of great Nikkors. I wouldn't be overly surprised if Nikon weren't selling off a batch of 105DCs from a mid-1990's production run still. Neither of those lenses is a budget lens anyway. Your typical D5000 user isn't going to be interested in the price or focal length.

135mm DC f/2D, or either of Nikon's fisheyes. All of these remain listed on Nikon's website (at least their US site - couldn't be bothered to check others).

Like the 105 DC, the 135DC is a specialty lens, and hardly something a beginner is going to pick up. More importantly, both the 105DC and 135DC are focal lengths that scream out for FX, as the DC is generally used in portraiture where they're both terrible angles of view on DX. I mean, you're seriously advocating that defocus control lenses at ~157.5mm and ~202.5 are missed on DX format cameras? Which of the two do you own and use frequently?

Frankly, if you need AF for a fisheye, you've got way bigger problems than we have time to talk about here.

But exotic lenses that never sold in vast quantities even when they autofocused on every single camera Nikon sold are hardly ringing arguments for the current strategy.

Of course, these aren't necessarily lenses that the majority of new camera owners, or really, photographers in general, would be interested in, but they are nevertheless inaccessible - at least, to an extent - to the entry-level

Not only aren't they necessarily lenses the majority of new camera owners or really photographers in general would be interested in- they're limited-production lenses that never sold in large numbers anyway- in the case of the 135mm DC, I'm pretty-sure it's been discontinued.

Nikon had a choice- they could make the D40 and the bodies that followed it really inexpensive, or they could choose to include a screwdriver focus motor. They chose the right way for the market, otherwise they wouldn't have been selling boatloads of new entry-level cameras and taking market share from pretty-much everyone.

Nikon user. In addition, those with less money to spend can get good deals on useful older lenses, particularly the 50mm f/1.8D or the 35-70mm f/2.8D, but also some of the (admittedly surpassed by the newer zooms) f/2.8 primes. There are also a few third-party lenses that either lack versions with built-in autofocus or have cheaper body-driven versions.

I don't think you've been watching used prices on the 35-70 f/2.8 AF-D if you think there's a "good deal" out there anymore. While you used to be able to pick up a good sample for ~$350, they now start at $650, and good samples tend to be in the $800 range.

For instance:

http://www.h1photo.com/1963.html

Used, $794.95

Hardly the lens a budget-conscious purchaser is looking for. (I've been considering selling mine and upgrading the the (wider, better) Sigma 24-70 HSM for $150.

As for the 50mm, the 35mm DX costs less than the delta between the bodies that will AF it and the 50mm, and is a more appropriate angle of view on a DX sensor. That's Nikon's answer, and frankly it's a pretty good answer.

In any case, I just think that when people choose to buy a budget camera, they should be able to use budget lenses (to their full functionality, FX/DX quibbles aside) on them, instead of having to (ironically) upgrade in order to do so.

There are plenty of budget lenses available that AF on the low-end Nikon bodies. The market is full of consumer-grade zooms that AF just fine. More importantly, Nikon's current strategy has them selling more cameras and gaining more market share- so they're hardly likely to worry too much about people purchasing 15 year old lenses- and the most likely segment who cares about that are going to be picking up higher-end cameras for the most part anyway. Worrying about the corner cases who aren't going to purchase new lenses would be silly at this point as the strategy is working well enough.
 
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