No more Mac Pro! Had enough waiting

[GermanyChris]

I certainly appreciate the spirit of that quote, but file management probably absorbs 30% of my time in motion design and is my biggest hesitancy to pull the trigger on a z820. I would certainly survive but would really miss OSX's search/Spotlight functionality. Version control is a nightmare in post production.

I sorta live in all three OSX and Linux have the same type of file management. Spot light can be replaced with synapse and instead of alt+tab you have alt=F2.

In Windows I hit the Windows key and start typing..

I like all three for different reasons, but I dislike MS for their shenanigans in the 90's..

 

[echoout]

I sorta live in all three OSX and Linux have the same type of file management. Spot light can be replaced with synapse and instead of alt+tab you have alt=F2.

In Windows I hit the Windows key and start typing..

I like all three for different reasons, but I dislike MS for their shenanigans in the 90's..

Being able to search from import/open/save/etc. dialogues is the riddle I can't seem to crack in Windows. Navigating a separate window from the one I'm in isn't usually helpful. I don't doubt that Linux has some nice stuff to work with.

 

[Sophia.]

I didn't find it agressive. I was just making sure my reply to it didn't come off that way. Totally crosswires there on both sides I think. Sorry about that

Pro Tools seems to be a dog of system apart from it's user interface. The forums on avids website are worth reading through just to see precicely how many problems people can have with it on both platforms so for the windows version to behave better than the Mac version after an system update, it really goes to show that porting it over windows after it being a Mac only system for years then presumably porting the windows code back to the Mac once they needed it to run on intel Macs seems to be problematic for Avid. The interface and usability of it is top notch which is how it remains the industry standard even with software like Logic and DSP systems from Universal Audio available to compete with it.

That's alright you did nothing wrong I just felt I may have been a bit sharp with you unintentionally I'm glad that was not the case. If I am being honest I didn't know Avid was exclusive to Mac, before my time I guess.

I use Avid on the Mac and I don't think I've ever ran into any serious problems maybe I'm just lucky or have been using Avid long enough to work around any problems.I can't really add more as I've never had a real problem but I will check out the Avid forums, it should be interesting.

 

[nanofrog]

And quality of construction.

I've seen equal or better construction in non-Apple systems. Overall however, it has declined due to maximizing profits.

Also, where is the PC retina laptop?

And how does this have anything to do with the MP/workstation segment?

My point is, that "under the hood/bonnet", Apple is using the same Intel Xeons engine as PC's these days.

The z800 running Ubuntu sitting here is a pita trying to run multiple monitors and I cut my hand anytime I have to do anything inside it. It's not just the appearance that's different.

You do realize that Ubuntu isn't a commercially developed OS, unlike OSX or Windows...

Find a better distro. or better yet, install Windows (fairer comparison as both are commercially developed OS's), and you'd be able to solve the multiple monitor issues.

As per cutting hands, I've been able to do that on any computer I've had to get inside, so I don't really see this as a quality indicator (combine ease of access, layout, particularly regarding airflow, ..., is another matter, as it's directly related to the amount of time a person is inside it, and reliability over time <cooling aspect in particular>).

 

[GermanyChris]

And quality of construction. Also, where is the PC retina laptop? The z800 running Ubuntu sitting here is a pita trying to run multple monitors and I cut my hand anytime I have to do anything inside it. It's not jst the appearance that's different.

RHEL to the rescue, which you should be on in a workstation.

 

[LuxoJunior]

your butts mature

"butt's"

Fixed that for ya.

 

[barkmonster]

That's alright you did nothing wrong I just felt I may have been a bit sharp with you unintentionally I'm glad that was not the case. If I am being honest I didn't know Avid was exclusive to Mac, before my time I guess.

I use Avid on the Mac and I don't think I've ever ran into any serious problems maybe I'm just lucky or have been using Avid long enough to work around any problems.I can't really add more as I've never had a real problem but I will check out the Avid forums, it should be interesting.

Avid is the usual term for Avid Media Composer/Media 100 used in video and film, it's also the name of the company.

When I'm talking about the Avid forums, it means what was for a very long time, The Digidesign User Conference, not forums specific to Avid's video editing software.

http://duc.avid.com/

In recent years they acquired Digidesign for Pro Tools and Sibelius for it's score feature and merged some of the functionality of Avid's video software with Pro Tools (clip gain) and score features from Sibelius as well. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[deconstruct60]

I've seen equal or better construction in non-Apple systems. Overall however, it has declined due to maximizing profits.

Max profits or increasing volumes ?

There is "more for less" downward pricing pressure across the whole PC and workstation markets.

Apple probably had juiced the overall Mac Pro profit percentage up because the entry level box is skewed higher ( and on slippery slope on value proposition). Put there are overall Mac Pro volume factors that going keeping it tightly coupled to the rest of the Mac Pro line up.

The CPUs aren't really were a significant quality difference is going to show up. Way to many other components ( caps , traces , etc.) that go into these systems that can run into problems with by nickel and dime, Scrooge McDuck cutting of corners. Just look at a large fraction of the Dell line up over the last 4-5 years.

 

[Sophia.]

Avid is the usual term for Avid Media Composer/Media 100 used in video and film, it's also the name of the company.

When I'm talking about the Avid forums, it means what was for a very long time, The Digidesign User Conference, not forums specific to Avid's video editing software.

http://duc.avid.com/

In recent years they acquired Digidesign for Pro Tools and Sibelius for it's score feature and merged some of the functionality of Avid's video software with Pro Tools (clip gain) and score features from Sibelius as well. Sorry for the confusion.

I misunderstood thanks for the info and the link.

 

[RoastingPig]

"butt's"

Fixed that for ya.

okay Mr red pen

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no more fighting.. hurry up mac pro

 

[thekev]

I'm not going to get into the debate about which is best. I am happy for the OP in fact I almost did the same thing, but I take issue with this post. We had to clean install Windows 7 64 bit last week as it BSOD.

When we had finished it had over 255 important and recommended updates (that I can remember) and one service pack. So please don't pretend that Windows doesn't have it's share of updates most of which are security updates...

I want to point out that the typical causes of a BSOD are the same or similar to what causes the OSX version. In either case you're looking at a hardware or driver problem, and added third party hardware is what I would examine for driver problems. This typically means connected peripherals or specialized hardware. Sometimes it's important to verify compatibility prior to a major update. This applies in either case. Bad ram can cause these things too, which is why I tend to test it whenever I add more ram prior to placing the machine back in service. Having to clean install should be fairly rare, and to minimize downtime, it is possible to keep a backup of your boot/OS drive.

Does the MP really need a Xeon and buffered RAM? Chances are the typical MP user doesn't need these features just the horsepower. Xeons really do have their place in rendering farms and distributed work networks and the like but not for a single on the desk MP. Does the MP need to be that large these days - NO. There are counterpart systems that are fairly powerful that are 2/3 the size and have the slots and place for drives.

I'm not going to debate past confidence, but this part of your post seems like a misunderstanding. Pricing differences between ECC and non-ECC ram today are negligible. As mentioned the MP doesn't use buffered dimms. Just go to newegg and look up ECC vs non ECC on the same spec. This is not the primary driving force behind their pricing. I tried to match voltage, specs, and brand. The mac pros use 6GB today. Prior to mid 2012 they shipped with 3. How much do you really think that adds to the cost? Here is a 6 core i7. I chose the one that offered the best value. Below that it drops to quad core. It's equivalent to an E5-1650. Note intel's recommended customer pricing. The extra cost of dual package boards seems to be addressed via their daughterboard configuration, which a couple people on here previously pointed out to me. I'm not sure what you think they should do or if you really believe that the base model is excessively expensive to build.


Here's another. The $800 mini uses this.

After they shuffled the cpu options in the mac pro last year, the base model received this. It is a less expensive cpu. Of course a mac pro ships with a 5770 by default, but those should have been fairly cheap by that point.

For once I would like to hear a real reason why shifting parts to i7 variants would make for a much less expensive machine if people are going to continue those claims. I see it as an issue of perception. If Apple wanted to, they could charge $3000 for the base imac. They just wouldn't sell many of them.

You do realize that Ubuntu isn't a commercially developed OS, unlike OSX or Windows...

Find a better distro. or better yet, install Windows (fairer comparison as both are commercially developed OS's), and you'd be able to solve the multiple monitor issues.

Isn't it possible that unix based was a requirement and he simply went with the seemingly "friendliest" distro?

 

[Sophia.]

I want to point out that the typical causes of a BSOD are the same or similar to what causes the OSX version. In either case you're looking at a hardware or driver problem, and added third party hardware is what I would examine for driver problems. This typically means connected peripherals or specialized hardware. Sometimes it's important to verify compatibility prior to a major update. This applies in either case. Bad ram can cause these things too, which is why I tend to test it whenever I add more ram prior to placing the machine back in service. Having to clean install should be fairly rare, and to minimize downtime, it is possible to keep a backup of your boot/OS drive

True we have now backed up all machines OS to cheap SSDs. We're not sure what the problem was. Installing the updates while the computer was running rather than while it shuts down seems to have fixed the issue. First and only time we've had a problem with one of our machines.

 

[nanofrog]

Isn't it possible that unix based was a requirement and he simply went with the seemingly "friendliest" distro?

Possible, sure.

But if it's for an employer (mission critical, not an experimental system used for testing), then the research and testing needed to be done prior to committing to such a configuration in order to avoid problems once it was actually integrated into the company's computer infrastructure.

 

[Garamond]

So, you dropped your Mac Pro but still posting in a Mac forum?

You seem angry, probably since you are regretting the whole thing.

 

[thekev]

True we have now backed up all machines OS to cheap SSDs. We're not sure what the problem was. Installing the updates while the computer was running rather than while it shuts down seems to have fixed the issue. First and only time we've had a problem with one of our machines.

It is an odd issue. My concern was that people often blow up the issue of the BSOD on Windows in recent years rather than looking at possible causes. When it comes to some of the self built machines, they're basically doing their own support on everything, just as they would with a hackintosh. When it comes to anything added to an oem configuration on either side, there is always the potential for problems. I had kernel panic issues on one of my Macs just because I wanted a left handed mouse and the only one I could find was made by Razer, which apparently depends on their stupid software to make left click still behave as left click. I didn't feel like getting used to reversed buttons on one device. I also didn't want it for gaming. I simply found a typical mouse uncomfortable.

Possible, sure.

But if it's for an employer (mission critical, not an experimental system used for testing), then the research and testing needed to be done prior to committing to such a configuration in order to avoid problems once it was actually integrated into the company's computer infrastructure.

I figured if it was for a big employer, it was unlikely that Ubuntu was officially approved.

 

[Vapor matt]

WOW

Well what can I say, so many comments, some good some bad some just plain rude. I had no idea that some people can be so controlled by a brand. I still have my mac pro, so I can still post in here. infact I found a sata 3 card that I posted in here to help others get SATA 3 SSD drives in the mac pro. link here

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1280517/

so I did contribute to the forum and pass on what I had found. such a bad man I am for building a windows based machine. (GROW UP)

I changed to a PC as my main machine for my own reasons! and one of them is iam fed up of waiting for a new mac pro simple as that. I need to get work done and the PC build was the answer.

did I read is the sound any better? anyone ever used a top line asus sound card, sounds much better than my mac pro does.

As for build quality, the Silverstone case costing over £200 $300 I used is top quality, and very well thought out, superior cooling, 8 hard drives 6 fitted in mine. 2 X 250g SSD
4 X 2tb drives 2 optical drives including blueray RW, multicard reader 12 usb ports, firewire and external SATA ports. GTX680 and yes tomb raider looks great!

Iam not dissing my mac pro as its been a fine machine, but iam not blinded by brand, apple missed the boat with the mac pro update, and some will move over to windows based machines and like myself find windows 7 very stable in what it does and what I use it for which is work and earning a living!

Just because I built a windows based machine dosnt mean I now hate mac! infact if you want to know this machine will also run ML as a hackintosh. but iam happy with win 7 pro for now.

If apple ever do bring out a new mac pro I might well consider it. but only if its superior to what iam using now hardware wise.

anyway enough said, my purchase suits my needs and if mac had updated they might well have my money instead.







USB3, on board SATA PCIE 3 DDR3 2000mhz ivybridge cpu

 

[bearcatrp]

One thing to point out to folks who get BSOD, which is about the same when OSX freezes up. They stink but its usually a rouge program. Most of those issues are software added from the maker (Dell, HP,etc). I've built 4 dual xeon systems in the past 4 years. Only buy win7 OEM. This version has no added garbage added to the system. The only BSOD (I think 3 total) i had was from a program I knew was possible to create the BSOD. One of the reasons I build. But you can do a clean install by doing a custom install. I like OSX. Still running SL on my mini. Just don't like the apple tax on the hardware. All OS's crash from time to time. Rant over.

 

[FluJunkie]

You do realize that Ubuntu isn't a commercially developed OS, unlike OSX or Windows...

This will come as a shock to Canonical.

 

[nanofrog]

Max profits or increasing volumes ?

From what I've seen, it's more on maximizing profits (redesign for lower manufacturing costs) than volume.

Given that ODM's such as Foxconn or Pegatron produce the systems these days, volume manufacturing should already be worked out fairly well.

There is "more for less" downward pricing pressure across the whole PC and workstation markets.

Quite true, but most of that "value" is the result of technological improvements (i.e. improvements in the IC's being used) rather than just finding ways to reduce product MSRP's.

There's not a lot in vendor control other than additional features (things not included in the bare minimum part count respective to CPU platform), and finding the cheapest parts possible (namely passives).

Apple probably had juiced the overall Mac Pro profit percentage up because the entry level box is skewed higher.

Their gross margins across the line aren't scraping bottom anywhere (or any of their others for that matter).

But Yes, the entry level is a bit higher, presumably as those have the highest volume of sales.

The CPUs aren't really were a significant quality difference is going to show up. Way to many other components ( caps , traces , etc.) that go into these systems that can run into problems with by nickel and dime, Scrooge McDuck cutting of corners. Just look at a large fraction of the Dell line up over the last 4-5 years.

I wasn't referring to CPU platform in regard to quality differences. I'd have thought this was clear, and in no way being argued.

PCB design OTOH, (passives, trace layout on too few layers, ...) is precisely what I'm referring to as being a differentiator on quality from one system to another. Cooling, case layout and accessibility, as well all directly impact reliability and usability from a hardware POV. The rest comes down to software in terms of functionality.

I figured if it was for a big employer, it was unlikely that Ubuntu was officially approved.

It's attractive as a workstation platform, so I didn't want to make that presumption.

I changed to a PC as my main machine for my own reasons! and one of them is iam fed up of waiting for a new mac pro simple as that. I need to get work done and the PC build was the answer.

I'm a fan of being brand agnostic, as the user can end up with the best solution to their specific needs this way (just requires research to find it).

What does bother me is when platform discussions come up, particularly regarding hardware, and the support responses seem to come down to "but, but... it has special magic sauce" when they're made out of parts from the same catalogs by the same manufacturers. //facepalm

 

[ClassObject]

This will come as a shock to Canonical.

ding, ding, ding. we have a winner!

----------

I've seen equal or better construction in non-Apple systems. Overall however, it has declined due to maximizing profits.


And how does this have anything to do with the MP/workstation segment?

My point is, that "under the hood/bonnet", Apple is using the same Intel Xeons engine as PC's these days.


You do realize that Ubuntu isn't a commercially developed OS, unlike OSX or Windows...

Find a better distro. or better yet, install Windows (fairer comparison as both are commercially developed OS's), and you'd be able to solve the multiple monitor issues.

As per cutting hands, I've been able to do that on any computer I've had to get inside, so I don't really see this as a quality indicator (combine ease of access, layout, particularly regarding airflow, ..., is another matter, as it's directly related to the amount of time a person is inside it, and reliability over time <cooling aspect in particular>).

Hook, line, and sinker.

 

[deconstruct60]

From what I've seen, it's more on maximizing profits (redesign for lower manufacturing costs) than volume.

Given that ODM's such as Foxconn or Pegatron produce the systems these days, volume manufacturing should already be worked out fairly well.

But don't really need Foxconn or Pegatron if not chasing volume ( lower price points so can sell more. ). Giving up design control to the manufacturer who makes profit by squeezing quality out of the design is the feedback circle.

There's not a lot in vendor control other than additional features (things not included in the bare minimum part count respective to CPU platform), and finding the cheapest parts possible (namely passives).

if system vendors punt the design to a 3rd party they actually aren't in control. Those folks typically aren't around holding the risk responsibility when their short cuts kick in.

PCB design OTOH, (passives, trace layout on too few layers, ...) is precisely what I'm referring to as being a differentiator on quality from one system to another. Cooling, case layout and accessibility, as well all directly impact reliability and usability from a hardware POV. The rest comes down to software in terms of functionality.

There is a catch-22 with outsourcing. If outsource too much then don't experts inside to make the judgement calls to stop too few layers or to gauge the long term quality.

 

[Tesselator]

I've seen equal or better construction in non-Apple systems. Overall however, it has declined due to maximizing profits.

Yeah, it's really only the case that's well made. If you look at the surface components on the main-board they're the "inexpensive" brand. And the case itself... Yeah, well made, and good engineered air-flow... But I'm kinda tired of it already - I mean, it's been 8 or 9 years of the same already. Its time for a change IMO. Maybe something more stylish? What I really want is something quiet and yet completely open for easy access to everything - I wanna see everything and not even have to remove a side panel in order to gain access. And as much hot-swapping as possible!

I've always admired the better HP cases but that's kinda almost the same thing as Apple without the heavy aluminum - but with better cooling engineered into the design.

Design your own options can be pretty awesome but of course those are usually just on-offs.

I guess some design ideas can be grabbed for the custom/commercial Hackintosh builders out there... And there are a few to be certain.

I think a different case should begin from the ground up with a unique main-board that makes sense for the kind of easy access system I'm thinking of. And build around that in order to get easy fast access to whatever I'm tinkering with the most at the time. There have been attempts at doing this in the past but they usually miss the mark.

I want something designed by someone if not myself, who can literally think outside the box.

 

[OS6-OSX]

Once I can afford the updates to Pro Tools 10 (or 11 by then) and Reason 7, I can think about looking at a newer Mac running a more recent OS version.

I'm a 100% Mac person myself, it's just a fact I thought needed sharing.

Since this post has been totally hijacked here are a few more off topic things:
1. You should pass on PT10 it's not 64bit!
2. Don't see UA and PT competing. No one uses PT plugs and UA does not have a software sequencer or app to mix sound files. They actually compliment each other. Plug the Neve 1081's, Neve 1073's, SSL's, Pultec Pro, Fairchild, 1176, LA2A, Neve 33609 etc and your mixes jump out of your NS 10's! Add some Waves and mastering is a breeze! Now Waves v. UA is some competition. Logic Audio should watch it's back. You know what Apple has done to the rest of it's "Pro" line!
MacPro 2008 3.1 | 14GB Ram | Quadro 4000 | MC6.0 | OS 10.6.8 | MOTU HDX-SDI | ATTO R644| LaCie 324

 

[GermanyChris]

This will come as a shock to Canonical.

I think he meant more it's not SUSE or RHEL it not really enterprise vs commercially developed. Canonical is trying for consumer Mac and Windows users and they seem to be doing a fairly good job of grabbing them. I think Steam hitting the Linux platform will really help the open source world. If you don't need specialized programs, like 99% of people Linux is a viable options especially Ubuntu.

 

[barkmonster]

Since this post has been totally hijacked here are a few more off topic things:
1. You should pass on PT10 it's not 64bit!
2. Don't see UA and PT competing. No one uses PT plugs and UA does not have a software sequencer or app to mix sound files. They actually compliment each other. Plug the Neve 1081's, Neve 1073's, SSL's, Pultec Pro, Fairchild, 1176, LA2A, Neve 33609 etc and your mixes jump out of your NS 10's! Add some Waves and mastering is a breeze! Now Waves v. UA is some competition. Logic Audio should watch it's back. You know what Apple has done to the rest of it's "Pro" line!
MacPro 2008 3.1 | 14GB Ram | Quadro 4000 | MC6.0 | OS 10.6.8 | MOTU HDX-SDI | ATTO R644| LaCie 324

I was thinking of waiting till PT 11 actually because I haven't got a hope of affording to upgrade till at least August this year anyway so waiting longer wouldn't be an issue either.

The Universal Audio interfaces are an interesting option because you can use them with Pro Tools as well as other DAWs and they even have a hardware based delay compensation plug-in. The fact they have a Thunderbolt daughtercard option makes them even more appealing but I only multi-track software synths so the hardware part is largely unneeded. I only use my Mbox2 for monitoring but I could always start adding some hardware to my setup when I have more cash, then I'd have use for the inputs.

I'm always using layed Alesis HR-16 and Roland TR-808/TR-909 multisamples for beats and Novation Drumstations and circuit-bent HR-16s show up on eBay quite often. It's a shame how many of these companies are reduced to making USB keyboards and interfaces for software synth use when they made so much analogue based stuff in the 80s and 90s.