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I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the current Mac Pro is not all that easy to upgrade either...
....

So yeah, the current Mac Pro is upgradable, but it's anything but plug-and-play.

The fact is, as an owner of a 2009 Mac Pro that has had to grapple with all of this, I couldn't be happier that the new Mac Pro address all of these... dual high-end GPUs, USB 3, unthrottled PCIe SSD, and 3 TB controllers that should give me a full trio of x4 PCIe lanes I can tap into for future use.

Fair point, but I don't think it's related to the discussion .

All the improvements you mention, that's just keeping up with current technology, it's the least they can do .

Just because Apple didn't do so for a couple of years doesn't warrant cheers, does it ?
 
Fair point, but I don't think it's related to the discussion .

All the improvements you mention, that's just keeping up with current technology, it's the least they can do .

Just because Apple didn't do so for a couple of years doesn't warrant cheers, does it ?

I think it's related. All the attributes you have quoted him on relate to storage - just not exclusively. And why shouldn't we cheer now that Apple has announced the MP6,1. It looks cheerable to me - even if it's not suited well for configuration as a cluster.
 
Err what? This isn't true in the slightest.

feel free to bother to explain yourself. What professional working environment are you in where you don't have to share resources with your coworkers?

If you aren't doing a sneakernet, you are sharing a storage system.

----------

Upgrading and offering pre-built Macs is my small business and what puts food on my table. You can rage against reality and curse and mock all you like, but multiple drives of very large capacity go in my Mac Pros for professional buys far more often than not.

If what you said about professional users was true, then they wouldn't be buying those builds. They are. Ergo you are wrong.

Yeah? What professions are you making builds for that require internal disks? Are you sure these guys aren't really just 'prosumers'?

Rage against reality? You are the one that has not noticed the trend in computing of making computers smaller!
 
You misinterpret a lot of your data. It hasn't gone back to centralization beyond where it won't fit. That's usually a thing of accommodating mobile form factors and to a lesser degree that we have have single drives that are fast enough to deal with programs that write a lot of additional data to disk. There's nothing forward thinking about de-integrating products. In larger group environments it makes more sense if multiple users need to access the same data with some level of data management to ensure one user doesn't overwrite the work of another. It's really ridiculous that you're trying to debate what constitutes a "pro" rather than the market that would buy such a machine. Even at the external level, you have far more SAS based DAS boxes than thunderbolt ones.


I would always choose a chipset native port over an additional layer of hardware. When you talk about $50 external cases, have you ever used one? They are not always seamless.

Computers haven't gone back to centralization? Do you understand what the cloud is? That's as centralized as you can get. Christ, there are software products that are moving PROCESSING off the workstation!! Nothing forward thinking about de-integrating products? Forward thinking people moved dense storage off of workstations YEARS ago. I'm not sure why your comment on SAS makes you think it's a point on your behalf as opposed to a reflection of the reality that storage is moving off the workstation. Apple chose Thunderbolt instead of SAS for pretty obvious reasons. And yeah, obviously the level of choice isn't there for thunderbolt the same as it is for SAS, but the nmp isn't out yet either.

I'm not sure why you think Apple should model their next generation of computer on the needs of independent professionals, as opposed to the more traditional professional group environment. And it has nothing to do with needing a data access management layer. If you need more than one person accessing a resource, it must be shared. You can leave it internal, but you are just turning your workstation into a fileserver anyway. I can't imagine what sort of 'professional' environment you are in where you have such high-end requirements that the nmp doesn't meet it, yet you are comfortable sharing a team's resource off of an in-use workstation. This is before any availability is factored in.

I'm not debating pro as much as wondering why people think that stuffing as many disks inside of a box has anything to do with being a professional computer user. Professional users actually make money with their machines. Anyone that makes money off their data should already have multiple copies that don't reside in the same box. I think people are just going to have to deal with not being able to stuff 4 discs inside the box and will have to accept putting it into another box next to their nmp.
 
Computers haven't gone back to centralization? Do you understand what the cloud is? That's as centralized as you can get. Christ, there are software products that are moving PROCESSING off the workstation!! Nothing forward thinking about de-integrating products? Forward thinking people moved dense storage off of workstations YEARS ago. I'm not sure why your comment on SAS makes you think it's a point on your behalf as opposed to a reflection of the reality that storage is moving off the workstation. Apple chose Thunderbolt instead of SAS for pretty obvious reasons. And yeah, obviously the level of choice isn't there for thunderbolt the same as it is for SAS, but the nmp isn't out yet either.

If you knew anything at all, you would know that the term cloud computing is just an issue of rebranding. The concept of slim clients has existed for decades. If you were using a slim client system, you wouldn't need a full workstation. Some people do this with large clusters where time must be reserved in advance. As for storage, current infrastructure makes it impractical to deal with terabytes of data through cloud storage. I even mentioned that backups would still be external , yet you chose to ignore it. I hope you enjoyed your nonsensical rant.
 
If you knew anything at all, you would know that the term cloud computing is just an issue of rebranding. .... As for storage, current infrastructure makes it impractical to deal with terabytes of data through cloud storage. ...

The term "clould" largely grew out of technical presentations where the client and server are both represented in the diagram along with a "cloud" like icon that represented the arbitrary ( not particularly important to the system) networking infrastructure that connects the two. [ go to Power Point or any technical diagramming presentation tool and you will find a "cloud" icon in the icons for putting together diagrams about computers and networks. Same thing with the brick wall standard icon for 'firewall' . ]

"Cloud" doesn't technically mean that the server/storage is 3 km away. It could be 3m away and that most certainly isn't prohibitive or impractical. This is an impractical product nobody is buying:

http://www.avid.com/US/products/family/ISIS

Not really. Frankly most businesses with 10's of TB storage problems are generally moving this way. The larger the data pools inertia data is the more likely the that users are brought to it rather than shipping the data to the internals of the users computer. Whether that is through sneaker-net , FC , 10GbE , 3-4 GbE , whatever. In simpler, one-man-band environments still true where the cloud is very simple DAS network and the network service protocol raw is SAS instead of iSCSI when have to tackle hyper growth storage issues.

For the last 5-8 years folks have bet on HDDs density going up and $/GB falling fast enough to keep up with the increased needs over time. Blatant storage hogs like "ultimate megapixel" sensors and "ultimate megapixel displays" are somewhat negating and in some cases blowing away tech improvements in HDDs.

Slim clients tends to make sense when the shared resources are large and expensive. 10's of TB is exactly that if properly caretaking the data. It doesn't fit well inside a single box with general computatonal duties. The back-ups certainly won't.

The single box solution is bounded on both sides.

[ 10's - 100's GB of storage ] [ < ~ 10 TB of storage ] [ 10's (and up) TBs of storage ]

the new Mac Pro posture is to target the two on either side. It isn't optimized for the one in the middle. None of that has any impact on it being targeted at professionals or not. It is targeted at a problem and its solution not a status label.

As HDDs get denser the categories don't really disappear. Denser HDDs moves the top and middle one up about as much. Denser SSDs tends to move the bottom one up too.
 
Christ, there are software products that are moving PROCESSING off the workstation!! Nothing forward thinking about de-integrating products? Forward thinking people moved dense storage off of workstations YEARS ago.

Forward thinking folks who were tracking their storage growth and saw that it was going to be a future problem have years ago.

It is more a problem solving issue than being forward/backward thinking or pro or not.

Generally yes, organiztaions ( i.e., several people ) with large data storage needs have largely deployed centralized ( or at least external if implementing poor-man's SAN with DAS drives ) storage as a general solution.
 
The term "clould" largely grew out of technical presentations where the client and server are both represented in the diagram along with a "cloud" like icon that represented the arbitrary ( not particularly important to the system) networking infrastructure that connects the two. [ go to Power Point or any technical diagramming presentation tool and you will find a "cloud" icon in the icons for putting together diagrams about computers and networks. Same thing with the brick wall standard icon for 'firewall' . ]

Yes... I know that. As I said the principle itself predated this. The term cloud has been in use for quite a few years at this point and the growth in how often people use that term has probably outpaced the number that have turned to remote solutions. The post I responded to seemed to be referring to off site storage solutions rather than the connecting infrastructure. It is still a branding issue as I mentioned. The principle predates that icon by many years.

As for storage, my primary claim was that some of the low end das solutions that are suggested as alternatives to internal bays tend to be pretty bad. Buying a decent das solution that works entirely as expected without causing weird sleep issues or causing a reboot/shutdown to hang and other problems can be annoying. It can also be more costly. Basically external bays addressed a lot of that by being a fairly cost effective approach for < 10TB. You still need backups, but you can minimize things unless you simply require higher performing solutions. I find it nauseating to be lectured by posters like the prior one about the cloud when they only discovered the term through icloud.
 
Here's why. My MP has three internal 4TB data drives in addition to two 2TB Boot drives.

You run FOUR TERABYTES of BOOT drives? What OS are you running that requires that, ship-wide LCARS? What's your "professional" deployment of this Mac Pro, stellar cartography aboard the U.S.S. Excelsior??! Mountain Lion is what, seven gigs now? I guess you must be running your other five hundred operating systems out of Bootcamp.

The problem might be less of Apple's design than it is you using the technology in a wildly different way than it is designed to work best. Your local workstation needs fast-access drive space for operations. Your mass storage need not be located in the same box (but can be) -- but in any case is not "boot drives." Your mass storage is already on spinning platter drives, and Thunderbolt gives you essentially 100% of that speed from an external enclosure, which means the rest of us should NOT be required to pay for a box that fits it all just because it's what YOU need -- nay, what you THINK you need, and actually don't.

You could be Peter Jackson himself and have eighty terabytes of 48p 4K footage for The Hobbit IV: Revenge of Baggins and you could still do 100% of your work with a 256GB/512GB PCIe internal drive as your boot drive... exactly the way Apple designed the new Mac Pro to work.

The new Mac Pro is damned near ideal for me, since my need for it is super-fast database administration and serving, and the entire DB is about 50 gigs in size. But I'm under no illusion that my configuration works for every single other user. I suspect that MOST of them will need mass storage. I suspect that NONE of them actually need it soldered to the PCIe bus, however, but since most are using spinning drives, can use Thunderbolt with equal utility. You MIGHT convince me that you need an array of fast SSDs, where Thunderbolt actually bottlenecks them slightly. Okay, name your function that uses that, where a PCIe boot stick and TB mass HDDs wouldn't work. 100-track realtime audio mixing?
 
You run FOUR TERABYTES of BOOT drives? What OS are you running that requires that, ship-wide LCARS? What's your "professional" deployment of this Mac Pro, stellar cartography aboard the U.S.S. Excelsior??! Mountain Lion is what, seven gigs now? I guess you must be running your other five hundred operating systems out of Bootcamp.

A boot drive with nothing but program files can grow pretty large. I haven't seen one grow above 1TB, but given today's prices what's wrong with going for 2TB, when you need maybe 750 GB or more anyway?

The problem might be less of Apple's design than it is you using the technology in a wildly different way than it is designed to work best. Your local workstation needs fast-access drive space for operations. Your mass storage need not be located in the same box (but can be) -- but in any case is not "boot drives." Your mass storage is already on spinning platter drives, and Thunderbolt gives you essentially 100% of that speed from an external enclosure, which means the rest of us should NOT be required to pay for a box that fits it all just because it's what YOU need -- nay, what you THINK you need, and actually don't.

This kind of argument is very puzzling. Why do you think you're required to pay for anything? Other than your taxes, I don't think there is a single thing you are actually required to pay.

Anyway, the cost of adding a few HDD bays and SATA connections is minimal compared to the cost of supporting 6 TB ports.... So, using your logic, one would think you'd be more outraged at the TB ports. If all I need is to replace the 4 HDD lost, then 1, maybe 2, would be perfectly fine.

The new Mac Pro is damned near ideal for me, since my need for it is super-fast database administration and serving, and the entire DB is about 50 gigs in size. But I'm under no illusion that my configuration works for every single other user. I suspect that MOST of them will need mass storage. I suspect that NONE of them actually need it soldered to the PCIe bus, however, but since most are using spinning drives, can use Thunderbolt with equal utility.

...equal-ish utility and roughly twice the cost...

You MIGHT convince me that you need an array of fast SSDs, where Thunderbolt actually bottlenecks them slightly. Okay, name your function that uses that, where a PCIe boot stick and TB mass HDDs wouldn't work. 100-track realtime audio mixing?

I have a several genomic analysis tools that are I/O bound in a variety of steps. And while I don't have SSDs in RAID, I know from running my jobs on clusters that despite very fast storage, latency does creep into the speed equation too, which would effect TB as well. So, I don't really understand this "fast-enough" idea for professional work. Every second saved is a second spent on the next job. Why shackle yourself with the ball and chain of TB for no particularly good reason?
 
This kind of argument is very puzzling. Why do you think you're required to pay for anything? Other than your taxes, I don't think there is a single thing you are actually required to pay.

Anyway, the cost of adding a few HDD bays and SATA connections is minimal compared to the cost of supporting 6 TB ports.... So, using your logic, one would think you'd be more outraged at the TB ports. If all I need is to replace the 4 HDD lost, then 1, maybe 2, would be perfectly fine.

The cost is baked into the product: not just of having legacy technology chipsets on board for the HDDs, but also of having a larger overall unit because of the internal space, affecting everything from the physical size of the unit to how it's packaged and shipped and many points in between, all of which costs money.

I would suggest that once the commitment is made to support TB at all, having six ports instead of one is FAR cheaper than adding all the legacy chipsets, including allocating motherboard real estate to them.

----------

Why shackle yourself with the ball and chain of TB for no particularly good reason?

You haven't used Thunderbolt, have you? Do you realize how fast it is in practice? It's an internal drive in an external enclosure. I have used it. It screams. Virtually everybody complaining about it presupposes, based on their interpretation of the spec, that it will magically bog down and be insufficient, because don't HDDs always slow down over time? The TB interface is not a source of such performance issues.
 
The cost is baked into the product: not just of having legacy technology chipsets on board for the HDDs, but also of having a larger overall unit because of the internal space, affecting everything from the physical size of the unit to how it's packaged and shipped and many points in between, all of which costs money.

All of which had already been designed, tested and production facilities established. Switching in a LGA 2011 mother board wasn't going to change much. R&D + QC costs would have been as close to zero as possible if they stuck with the current design. How much more do you think Apple had to spend to design a system based around 6 TB ports?

I would suggest that once the commitment is made to support TB at all, having six ports instead of one is FAR cheaper than adding all the legacy chipsets, including allocating motherboard real estate to them.


Are you forgetting the need for an additional GPU to power 6 TB ports? The need to custom design and produce nearly every single thing in the new mac pro? TB is not a cost saving measure internally or externally. Keeping the infrastructure on the board and box to use SATA is a tiny fraction of the cost of a computer. With TB, that's not really true.

You haven't used Thunderbolt, have you? Do you realize how fast it is in practice?

I haven't used it for big RAIDs, no. But I don't need to have used it to know it given all the information available to understand it.

It's an internal drive in an external enclosure.

Sure, you can put what are usually internal drives in external enclosures, and performance is better than other external enclosures, but its not as fast as internal.

I have used it. It screams. Virtually everybody complaining about it presupposes, based on their interpretation of the spec, that it will magically bog down and be insufficient, because don't HDDs always slow down over time? The TB interface is not a source of such performance issues.


Where are you going here? If HDDs slow down internally, they slow down externally too? HUH?
 
How much more do you think Apple had to spend to design a system based around 6 TB ports?

It depends on how many they sell as to whether or not TB is a cost saving feature or not. It also depends on who else was in on the joint effort. I think there is no doubt that it will save Apple money not only in the long run but in the short term as well.


Are you forgetting the need for an additional GPU to power 6 TB ports? The need to custom design and produce nearly every single thing in the new mac pro? TB is not a cost saving measure internally or externally. Keeping the infrastructure on the board and box to use SATA is a tiny fraction of the cost of a computer. With TB, that's not really true.
You are of course guessing. Unless you're keeping Apple's books or bookkeeping for some other manufacturer you can't reasonably claim this.

TB2 supplies something like 40W per port - so on the MP6,1 that's 240W total. I think TB/TB2 peripherals will cost more but they will cost Apple less. And I think that's a good thing for those who don't want them. People not needing them won't have to pay more for internal parts (currently: connectors, sleds, power cables, backplane PWBs, assemblage thereof, and etc.) they will never use - like they have to with MP1,1 ~ MP5,1. Let those who need and use them pay. And it likely won't be that much. After things settle out I guess it'll add $25 to $30 to the end device cost.


Sure, you can put what are usually internal drives in external enclosures, and performance is better than other external enclosures, but its not as fast as internal.

Sorry, that's incorrect.
 
I would suggest that once the commitment is made to support TB at all, having six ports instead of one is FAR cheaper than adding all the legacy chipsets, including allocating motherboard real estate to them.

Right now Thunderbolt is more expensive.

TB controller chips + ports are in the $10-25 range. Things like USB 3.0 discrete controller the Mac Pro are in the the $3-10 range.

A SATA controller is even less because it is bundled with the core chipset ( C600 series in this case ).

I think this Mac Pro doesn't quite have the controllers and chipsets it needs to make the design work better. I suspect the design is based on where things are going. The core chipset will loose SATA lanes in a trade for PCIe based SATA Express lanes. ( http://www.tomshardware.com/news/SATA-Intel-Express-Storage,22069.html ). For example if the next generation following C600 ( call it c700 for now ):

a. dropped the 4 RAID SATA/SAS lanes for USB 3.0 (unthrottle with about x4 PCI-e v2 worth of bandwidth )
b. dropped down to just one 6 Gb/s SATA channel (freeing up 6Gb/s from the 2nd )
c. handed the other 4 SATA 3Gb/s lanes over to x4 PCIe v2 to run SATA Express ( some of the bandwidth coming from 6Gb/s above and the old RAID SAS subsystem above too )

then the Mac Pro wouldn't look so odd. There would only be one SATA channel left. You couldn't stuff 4-5 2.5" or 3.5" drives inside a bigger container. So the fact that space is missing wouldn't matter. The additional cost for the USB 3.0 controller is folded into the chipset. That frees up BOM cost to further push down the thunderbolt costs.


It is relatively straightforward to see that Apple has committed to reducing Thunderbolt controller costs by simply committing to buy as possible and hence get the biggest discount.

Intel is likely to produce a chipset like this because the servers in these massive datacenters don't use 10 SATA lanes any more than the MBA does. Besides boot all the storage is external. Sure there will be other chipset variants that don't drop the classic SATA channel, but it is relatively obvious that trying to shoot for numbers above 4-6 is way too high on both mainstream laptop/desktops and even in large sections of the server world.
The new Mac Pro is aligned with that reality.
 
Intel is likely to produce a chipset like this because the servers in these massive datacenters don't use 10 SATA lanes any more than the MBA does. Besides boot all the storage is external. Sure there will be other chipset variants that don't drop the classic SATA channel, but it is relatively obvious that trying to shoot for numbers above 4-6 is way too high on both mainstream laptop/desktops and even in large sections of the server world.
The new Mac Pro is aligned with that reality.

Thank you; that's what I was getting at, and perhaps not summing it up as concisely as you just did.
 
It depends on how many they sell as to whether or not TB is a cost saving feature or not. It also depends on who else was in on the joint effort. I think there is no doubt that it will save Apple money not only in the long run but in the short term as well.

If I'm guessing, so are you. TB will potentially only save Apple money because they get to sell you something at the same price with less features, costing the consumer more money.


You are of course guessing. Unless you're keeping Apple's books or bookkeeping for some other manufacturer you can't reasonably claim this.

Hardly a blind guess. A 3TB TB drive costs about $300. You can get a 3TB USB 3 drive for close to $100. Now, I'm not going to say all of the extra $200 is due to the cost of TB, some certainly comes from market pricing strategy (ie. making people that want the latest and greatest overpay for it), but a good portion of that extra is passed on from the cost of the TB controller itself. Lets say its half that cost, so $100 for 2 ports. That would be $300 on the new Mac Pro. While Apple almost certainly has economies of scale that would drive that lower, I don't see it coming down <$100, and you have to add in the cost of the additional GPU needed to drive all 6 of these. Most users remember, would have no need for 2 GPUs without 6 TB ports....

Then, lets take a look at some single socket LGA 2011 motherboards with plain old SATA. Take for example this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182331

LGA 2011 socket
8 DIMMs
1 16x PCI E 3.0
1 8x PCI E 3.0
1 4x PCI E 2.0
4x SATA 2
2x SATA 3
4x SATA 2 in SCU

All for $339 retail. If Apple were buying 100K of them, it might be half that.

So that whole motherboard likely costs roughly what the TB alone cost on the Mac Pro. But that New Mac Pro still need that extra GPU to drive the TB ports, the DIMM slots, LGA 2011 socket, PCI slots....

TB saving costs on manufacturing the Mac Pro seems over standard configurations seems frankly impossible, especially once you start recognizing the additional GPU cost.

People not needing them won't have to pay more for internal parts (currently: connectors, sleds, power cables, backplane PWBs, assemblage thereof, and etc.) they will never use - like they have to with MP1,1 ~ MP5,1. Let those who need and use them pay. And it likely won't be that much. After things settle out I guess it'll add $25 to $30 to the end device cost.

$25-$30 per port maybe. Then a couple hundred for the extra GPU. Spread that cost over the 6 ports and you're back in the near $100/port range.

Of course, you're also still forgetting that nearly everyone is going to need some kind of external enclosure for storage, whether its per user or a larger shared resource. The onboard PCI SSD is not going to be enough. So, its completely false to just say you can negate the costs of the sleds/connectors/power/extra enclosure for traditional HDDs. Who, after all, is going to be buying a workstation with Xeon processors that only needs <= 1TB of storage?


Sorry, that's incorrect.

Sorry, actually its not. The raw MB/s may look comparable to whats actually achievable in smaller/cheaper systems, but on larger arrays it will bottleneck the system and the latency will slow it down compared to internal no matter the size.

TB is fast, but it isn't as fast as internal, and its more expensive. There is just no way to make a rational and factual argument to dispute that. Sorry.
 
Sometimes a picture is worth a million words:

Mac-Pro_2013_Mac-Pro_2013.jpg
 
Yes, I agree. Also depends on the number of drives running in the RAID. I spent enough to get a Core2Duo based NAS with 6 drives. Even with 5900rpm drives I get 90+ MBps Write and 100+ MBps Read rates through a CAT6 LAN.

When I also bought the cheapie 2 drive version I only got 60 MBps max. (Sold it and bought another 6 drive)

The key thing to remember is that Gigabit Ethernet has a theoretical max of only 125MB/sec no matter how much money you try to put behind it in a better NAS. As such, it is only going to suffice for 'slow' external storage...

...with the caveat being that 'slow' is relative to other direct connections, not the Cloud.


This is a very interesting and educational discussion. However, aren't sales of desktop towers decreasing? I believe it is. So isn't that the market (in some ways the most democratic institution) is saying? People are voting with their money AGAINST having internal drive bays and easy internal expansion.

Or they're voting FOR something, particularly since laptops classically have cost more, which means that this can't be a 'spend more to get less' paradigm. Obviously, there's a benefit to the consumer from the laptop containing a battery to permit it to operate anywhere...

...BTW, let's also not forget all of those laptop owners who yanked out their optical drives to install a second hard drive ;-)


...It's just different uses, different pieces of hardware. For some it will work out fine, for others it won't.

And a lot of the answer to the "Will it Work For Me?" question comes down to how much local infrastructure there is within that business/enterprise. To oversimplify, the smaller businesses are the ones more likely to be more reliant on the capability to have lots of very local fast storage (eg, internal hard drive bays).

I know that storage via Cloud or other web servers has become the trend, I still backup files the old fashion way via local internal/external hard drives. ( This is just me ) Sometimes I encountered where the server is down and could not retreived the files or internet connection problems.

An issue with Cloud storage is that it is going to continue to be bottlenecked primarily by how much one pays to your local ISP for connectivity ... for a very small business who otherwise only needs a cheap DSL connection, the prospects of using the Cloud for data storage becomes very unrealistic. For example, to upload 200GB via DSL (768 Kbps up) = 25 days, 21hrs, 22:43.

YMMV, but this amount of data (200GB) can represent how much a photographer may be coming back home with after going out for one major shoot ... yes, a shoot which probably lasted far less than 25 days.

feel free to bother to explain yourself. What professional working environment are you in where you don't have to share resources with your coworkers?

There's certain to be plenty of examples, but any classical "One Man" small business is one place to look.

Yeah? What professions are you making builds for that require internal disks? Are you sure these guys aren't really just 'prosumers'?

Internal isn't the requirement. The requirement is "Best Value", and internal happens to be very competitive versus many of the alternatives. Even if there's some data sharing requirements, OS X has Ethernet-based file sharing baked right in ... no compelling need to offload it to a NAS.

The cost is baked into the product: not just of having legacy technology chipsets on board for the HDDs, but also of having a larger overall unit because of the internal space, affecting everything from the physical size of the unit to how it's packaged and shipped and many points in between, all of which costs money.

Some of this is an observation that some of these expenses are funcdtionally being offloaded from Apple to their customer...ie, Apple saves on some logistics/transporation costs by having a smaller package, but the customer now ends up paying more via the 'Thunderbolt Tax' for a no-longer-internal peripheral.

You haven't used Thunderbolt, have you? Do you realize how fast it is in practice? It's an internal drive in an external enclosure. I have used it. It screams. Virtually everybody complaining about it presupposes, based on their interpretation of the spec, that it will magically bog down and be insufficient, because don't HDDs always slow down over time? The TB interface is not a source of such performance issues.

Then give me the facts. Nothing I've read online shows thunderbolt being as fast as internal....nothing....

There's really two main issues here.

The first is that technologically, TB absolutely cannot be faster, or have lower latency. The question is how close can TB come to matching the ideal state, such that TB won't pragmatically be considered to be a meaningful system performance bottleneck.


The second is that while TB probably is good enough per the above such that it should not be a significant consideration for most users, we also need to recognize that it won't be delivered at the same price point, it cannot be as good of a value from the customer's perspective...unless the customer has been compensated elsewhere to balance out the math.

And just what/how much is required to achieve an acceptable 'balance' is a customer-workflow-needs-based YMMV...for example, some use cases don't benefit from super GPUs, so that improvement gets a low significance weighting (and vice-versa).


FWIW, the way that I'm reading the tea leaves is that the new Mac Pro seems to be very bad for really small enterprises and quite appropriate for the really big boys ... but the problem with catering to the latter is that the larger houses often trend towards IT Departments that are very Windows-monopoly-centric and functionally ban Macs from their network.

-hh
 
An issue with Cloud storage is that it is going to continue to be bottlenecked primarily by how much one pays to your local ISP for connectivity ... for a very small business who otherwise only needs a cheap DSL connection, the prospects of using the Cloud for data storage becomes very unrealistic. For example, to upload 200GB via DSL (768 Kbps up) = 25 days, 21hrs, 22:43.

YMMV, but this amount of data (200GB) can represent how much a photographer may be coming back home with after going out for one major shoot ... yes, a shoot which probably lasted far less than 25 days.

There's certain to be plenty of examples, but any classical "One Man" small business is one place to look.


And just what/how much is required to achieve an acceptable 'balance' is a customer-workflow-needs-based YMMV...for example, some use cases don't benefit from super GPUs, so that improvement gets a low significance weighting (and vice-versa).

FWIW, the way that I'm reading the tea leaves is that the new Mac Pro seems to be very bad for really small enterprises and quite appropriate for the really big boys ... but the problem with catering to the latter is that the larger houses often trend towards IT Departments that are very Windows-monopoly-centric and functionally ban Macs from their network.

-hh

Thanks hh for the inputs and info. I am not really inclined in using Cloud storage also for fear of security being compromised or hacked. And yes, the length of time to upload/download of files takes too long. :)
 
Sometimes a picture is worth a million words:

Mac-Pro_2013_Mac-Pro_2013.jpg

Haha... so funny. If only that were true, Here's a representation of all the parts in my MacPro system - and I left out the 4 large items I don't currently have hooked up:

My_MacPro_System.jpg

And that's of course without the wires! Don't even talk to me about wires... OMG!

OMG_Wires.jpg

Get real bud! ;)
 
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Yes, I agree...

Seriously silly picture. USB3, thunderbolt cards? Any reasonable 2012 update should have had those without blinking an eye. You have to remember you're basically comparing a 2010 machine to something from that will appear late 2013.

The GPU issue is a very special case, since vast majority of people don't even want 2 high end GPUs. And its not like its hard to plug them in anyway.

Fiber cards expansions is basically a wash. Either you need an internal card or an external adapter to thunderbolt. Either way, its not exactly built in.
 
Seriously silly picture. USB3, thunderbolt cards? Any reasonable 2012 update should have had those without blinking an eye. You have to remember you're basically comparing a 2010 machine to something from that will appear late 2013.

The GPU issue is a very special case, since vast majority of people don't even want 2 high end GPUs. And its not like its hard to plug them in anyway.

Fiber cards expansions is basically a wash. Either you need an internal card or an external adapter to thunderbolt. Either way, its not exactly built in.

Exactly. A lot of MP users, myself included, will not need dual GPU cards because most of the software we use can't take advantage of them anyhow. And it's absurd to suggest USB3, Thunderbolt and other tech that is standard on even the lowest end Macs would not be built-in to the MP—even if it retained exactly the same form factor.
 
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