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zephonic

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Feb 7, 2011
1,326
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greater L.A. area
With all the haterade regarding the nMP and fear-mongering about Apple's disdain for the "pros" [sic], I thought it would good to share this post from an nMP user over at the gearslutz forum for balance:

https://www.gearspace.com/board/11684639-post14.html

It appears he is a professional film composer. He expresses a few of my own thoughts, but far better than I have done. Further in the thread he also posts about why he ditched RAID in favor of JBOD, among other things.

Here's what he said:

charlieclouser;11684639 said:
Without a doubt the older silver towers are a much more cost-effective solution. I got into the cylinder because:

- I had filled up all of the internal drive bays and PCIe slots on my 12-core 2.93 tower. MOTU card and 2x Sonnet Tempo Pro cards gave me eight internal drive bays, and the only way to go further was either FireWire (dead technology and not really that fast) or eSATA cards and drives (not ideal either). With the BlackMagic MultiDocks on Thunderbolt I can just keep adding more docks as needed. With the six Thunderbolt ports on the cylinder, each pair of ports represents one of the three "busses", so it's like having three PCI slots. I daisy-chain two docks on one Thunderbolt bus (so 8 drives) and can stack more as needed. That's like having 8 (or more) drives in one PCIe slot. I stack multiple MOTU AVB interfaces AND the UAD Satellites on another TB buss - so that's like having 3 (or more) PCIe cards on one slot. You can see where I'm going with this.... the TB configuration is more expandable than the old PCIe system - and I could use a Thunderbolt PCIe chassis if I really needed to use cards.

- I wanted 4k monitor support as Logic X is too big and chunky on my old 30" 2560x1600 monitors. Logic on a 4k monitor is sick. I also wanted the ability to go to more monitors than I could on the tower.

- I wanted to use the new MOTU AVB series interfaces which operate best via Thunderbolt. Also AVB is supported from the built-in Ethernet jacks on Macs that came equipped with Thunderbolt, so there's some flexibility there.

When the cylinder first came out people moaned because they thought that it had LESS expansion possibilities, but I have found the opposite to be true in my case. I can now stack up more drives, more monitors, more UAD boxes, just more more more of everything than I could on my towers. People said, "Now I have all these Thunderbolt cables running everywhere when before it was all inside the tower" but I had a zillion cables coming out of the tower anyway, and many of them were dead / slow / archaic tech like DVI-D, FireWire 800 and the old MOTU connection between its card and interfaces. Now the cables are faster and smaller and the whole rig that took a refrigerator-sized rack is just an eight-space rack with two cylinders on top. I used to have the fridge across the room, connected to the work station via $300 Gefen 50-foot DVI-D cables, USB extenders, blah blah blah. Now it's just a little, silent cube that can sit behind my work station.

It was not cheap to make the switch. It was more about future-proofing my rig for another few years, rather than relying on discontinued gear. Every single piece in my old rig, from the computers to the audio interfaces, has been discontinued, so if I had a failure I would need to hit up eBay and start buying used stuff. Not desirable in my line of work.

I have found the new cylinders to "feel" faster - this may be because of the fast video cards, the fast internal drive, faster RAM, or whatever - I don't know or care which, but the system as a whole does feel quicker and more powerful. I can't even get close to maxing out the CPU on the cylinder when using Logic. Most of my biggest cues are taxing the CPU meter by less than 25% in Logic.

I use the 12-core cylinder for Logic, and the 6-core for ProTools HD Native Thunderbolt with Avid MADI. The two systems connect via MADI so I can spray 64 channels across at once, on a $6 cable. A big improvement from my old rig which used ADAT cables to connect the two and only gave me 24 channels, while requiring a pair of 192 interfaces on the ProTools machine. So the new rig may not be twice as fast or whatever, but about a zillion things have improved and each gotten a bit faster, so overall it feels much faster and slicker than before.

Lots of folks are still using silver towers, and there are lots of dudes on eBay selling CPU tray upgrades to bring the silver towers up to speed - but trying to implement ALL of the various improvements I've seen in the cylinders while still using the towers could get very pricey, and some things (Thunderbolt etc.) are just not possible on the towers. Plus you're throwing money at old / dead technology. So I said, screw it and dropped the coin.

I haven't done any hard testing to get "numbers" of how much faster (or slower) the cylinder is than the towers, because it wasn't really about that for me. I never really maxed out the CPU on the towers, but I DID max out on number of slots, number and resolution of monitors, number of drives on line, etc. It was all the expansion stuff, new interfaces, 4k monitors, etc. that finally drove me over the edge.

If you can live with the various shortcomings of continuing to use the towers (some major, some minor) then it can be a lot cheaper to stay there, especially if you've got a decent one that's still in good shape to use as a basis for upgrades. I will say that all of my towers still work fine, they aren't getting "worn out" or whatever, and the physical build quality of Apple products means that you often have products that last for many years longer than the underlying technology is relevant. I still have G4 and G5 computers that, physically at least, work fine - it's just that they are too slow, loud, and generally un-worthy to be up to the tasks of the modern software tools that I want to use. So for me it was, out with the old, in with the new.
 
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Fair enough.

I guess it boils down to two things, internal storage, and PCIe. Storage needs are ever increasing so taking it out of the box makes sense as it eliminates physical limitations. Which leaves PCIe. Apple may have jumped the gun there, but I do believe PCIe (or at least user-accessible PCIe) is on its way out.

So the $64,000 question is whether internal drive bays and PCIe slots are worth switching to Windows for...

...and how long they are gonna around there. Imagine switching to Windows and not being able to buy an internally expandable workstation a few years from now...:D
 
It's nice to hear of someone speaking up for the nMP. That guy makes a lot of sense.

I've had my nMP for 2 years, almost to the day, and it's the best bit of Apple kit I've owned (and I've run quite a bit of Apple kit in my time). The engineering is incredible. It's quiet, fast and I've been able to choose what expansion options work best for me. I have no regrets about the purchase.

Completely agree with @satcomer. I've been saying the same thing myself. Apple won't update the nMP until they can update most of the internals all at the same time. It makes perfect business sense to me, and for the vast majority of users there simply wouldn't be that much to gain from just implementing a processor speed bump.
 
You're correct, but did you see the point made by me (previous post to yours) and @satcomer?
T-Bolt 3 is available as well, plus 10 GbE.

I saw your point, but disagree.

Apple could be selling an MP7,1 today (and for many months before today) with
  • 18 cores / 36 threads
  • 256 GiB of 2133 MHz DDR4
  • T-Bolt 3 (with external GPU support)
  • 10 GbE
  • NVMe SSD storage
That can't be dismissed as merely "a processor speed bump".
 
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The nMP needs an update when released on 2013 it was barely to outdated before release (and actually Intel was shipping the first Xeon E5v3 when first nMP arrived to his owners.

Now the fact is that the new portable workstation from lenovo the thinkpad P50 actually is faster than the the 4 core nMP also it's gpu is faster than a single D300.

It's know the Xeon don't have gained raw speed as evolved just more cores as the E5v4 will be available only from 6 cores it's base model will have the same TDP as the 4 cores it replaces but the single thread speed is barely improved also maybe slower.

This is annoying while most task could be distributed among multiple threads there are process that can't be paralellized by definition as on many CAD operations that by definition can only be executed in a single thread since all the values and data are carry-on every step.

I'm not happy in that with Intel, and their announcement also reaffirm how they are convinced about parallelism vs raw processing speed, this is wrong.

AMD promises much better single thread on its Zen architecture but it's still a promise and maybe will not arrive until next year.
 
Every single advantage quoted in the first post would have also been true if Apple had just updated the tower with Thunderbolt, USB 3.0, Ivy Bridge, etc.

Plus he could have had:
  • Twice as many of those CPUs that he praises
  • Twice as many memory sticks
  • Continued to use those PCIe solutions he mentions could be done in an expander
  • Kept his internal storage
  • Similar, different, better, cheaper, more, or fewer GPUs
  • etc etc
I feel like people keep praising things like a faster CPU and Thunderbolt, which are things we would have had anyway, while ignoring what we've lost.

All I see that we've truly gained is size/heat/fan/noise reduction, all of which is negated anyway for those people with a few or more external boxes.

Hopefully this is a coherent counterpoint. I've kept this post civil and factual to the best of my ability, not "haterade", and if you reply to me I ask that you do the same.
 
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  • Twice as many memory sticks.
A pair of E5-26xx processors support 24 DIMM slots. (1.5 TiB with 64 GiB DDR4)


The nMP needs an update when released on 2013 it was barely to outdated before release (and actually Intel was shipping the first Xeon E5v3 when first nMP arrived to his owners.
E5-x6xx v3 was introduced in Q3 2014.

The first MP6,1 deliveries were at the extreme end of 2013.
 
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Every single advantage quoted in the first post would have also been true if Apple had just updated the tower with Thunderbolt, USB 3.0, Ivy Bridge, etc.

Plus he could have had:
  • Twice as many of those CPUs that he praises
  • Twice as many memory sticks
  • Continued to use those PCIe solutions he mentions could be done in an expander
  • Kept his internal storage
  • Similar, different, better, cheaper, more, or fewer GPUs
  • etc etc
I feel like people keep praising things like a faster CPU and Thunderbolt, which are things we would have had anyway, while ignoring what we've lost.

All I see that we've truly gained is size/heat/fan/noise reduction, all of which is negated anyway for those people with a few or more external boxes.

Hopefully this is a coherent counterpoint. I've kept this post civil and factual to the best of my ability, not "haterade", and if you reply to me I ask that you do the same.

All true. Like I said:

Fair enough.

I guess it boils down to two things, internal storage, and PCIe. Storage needs are ever increasing so taking it out of the box makes sense as it eliminates physical limitations. Which leaves PCIe. Apple may have jumped the gun there, but I do believe PCIe (or at least user-accessible PCIe) is on its way out.

So the $64,000 question is whether internal drive bays and PCIe slots are worth switching to Windows for...

...and how long they are gonna around there. Imagine switching to Windows and not being able to buy an internally expandable workstation a few years from now...:D


I think this post by VirtualRain really nailed the PCIe situation for Apple, and why they decided to ditch it.
 
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Regardless of what the hivemind is on this forum, my nMP (6core, d500) has allowed me to let go of technical limitations and take on my projects with ease and freedom, as it literally tears through everything I give it. I recently had a timeline with multiple 2K and 4K prores plates, about "8K" combined amount of pixels at any given time, and it never gave me an issue. It was liberating. The only issue I've had was the graphics card defects (mine was in the spring 2015 bad batch) but they fixed it for me and I'm still covered till 2018 if it happens again, which is around the time I'll be looking at upgrading to whatever new model is out.

I love this thing, it's small and quiet and insanely fast. I'm so glad I don't have a massive 40LB metal box taking up space in my work area and making all kinds of noise and heat.

The usual suspects that trash the nMP on this board are basically luddites, or people trying to protect their outdated business models.
 
The usual suspects that trash the nMP on this board are basically luddites

Horse hockey. You're just demonstrating your ignorance for what the counterarguments are actually saying.

The nMP is a nice machine, but for you to infer that it's either for everybody — or you're a Luddite, because you don't adopt a juxtaposing form factor with open arms — completely invalidates any point you were trying to make, frankly.
 
Not so much in favour of the nMP, but more for how outdated the old MP was. and why their hand was forced into upgrading.

If Apple kept the old MP case, but with newer internals, plus the option of Thunderbolt, there wouldn't have been a problem anywhere.

I think your statement is right on the money. Every "plus" commented on about the new Mac Mini Pro (other than size) could have easily been addressed by the original design with a real upgrade. I am happy when the right people with the right software that works well with the nMP find synergy. For the rest of us, its a horribly expensive compromise (which I chose not to buy into).
 
Boy, all this passion over "innie" vs. "outie." Sure, Apple could have kept making updated cheese graters. They didn't. Get over it already.

Different packages for different folks. Personally, If I had a choice (I don't need the power of either the old or new MP, but I supported cheese graters for other people in my company), I'd want the smaller package. Those big boxes had tons of totally unusable, enclosed empty space. They took up a lot of floor space, they wouldn't fit on a desk, and sometimes that remote location demanded things like USB extension cables. They got filthy down on the floor, sucking in more lint and dust than a desktop-mounted machine might. When I had to work on them, I was down on my belly on that floor, under a desk. As others have noted, the fact that it had a few internal drive bays and card slots did not make a big dent in the amount of cables and external gear connected to the thing.

I seriously doubt Apple would produce two "pro" desktop form factors - the market simply isn't big enough to fragment in that manner. So it is what it is.
 
We'll see how great you think a closed system is when you try to sell your nMP in 2018 and the resale value has dropped off a cliff, because almost nothing about it can be upgraded

I'm not sure that will happen. iMac and Macbook Air/Pro resale value remains strong, even though their upgradeability is limited.

The 2009-2012 MacPro is an exception rather than the rule, I think. And upgradeability is partly the responsibility of Intel. As long as they switch sockets every other generation, your upgrade path will always be limited.
 
Fair enough.

I guess it boils down to two things, internal storage, and PCIe. Storage needs are ever increasing so taking it out of the box makes sense as it eliminates physical limitations. Which leaves PCIe. Apple may have jumped the gun there, but I do believe PCIe (or at least user-accessible PCIe) is on its way out.

So the $64,000 question is whether internal drive bays and PCIe slots are worth switching to Windows for...

...and how long they are gonna around there. Imagine switching to Windows and not being able to buy an internally expandable workstation a few years from now...:D

This is the problem. 'Pro's' need loads of storage, and hence the need to move it external. Many of us could do with an SSD for the OS and Apps, and a couple of big drives for our data, in a mirrored pair. A larger case with everything internal suits this need better. There is nothing between the Mini and the nMP to fill this need, and if you say iMac I'll come over there and show you where to shove it. the product range is too narrow and there's nothing in the product range for enthusiasts, which is ironic if you consider where Apple started.
 
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User accessible PCIE slots are not going anywhere and are about to become even more accessible. The big four gaming PC makers have all come out with PCIE boxes to connect to slim notebooks over Thunderbolt 3 and Nvidia's latest drivers are building better support for hot plugging external GPUs. TB3 is the game changer that will make Thunderbolt popular and make the nMP feasible, but only if OSX supports hot plugging GPUs and other devices. Otherwise you only see these benefits on Windows.
 
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Otherwise you only see these benefits on Windows.
Windows has supported hot plug PCI, hot plug memory, and hot add CPUs for a long time. (Some of the big iron vendors support hot remove CPUs, but you have to reboot Windows to remove them.)

Windows already had all of the plumbing to handle hot plug devices in T-Bolt, it simply works.
 
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I'm not sure that will happen. iMac and Macbook Air/Pro resale value remains strong, even though their upgradeability is limited.

The 2009-2012 MacPro is an exception rather than the rule, I think. And upgradeability is partly the responsibility of Intel. As long as they switch sockets every other generation, your upgrade path will always be limited.


I think people will be able to update the CPU to a certain point. Going from 4/6/8 to 12 cores and slightly newer versions of the XEON that use the same socket. So there is a little room there.

But the pink elephant in the room is the GPU. Due to the proprietary connector and form factor it will be impossible to upgrade and swapping out fried boards will become a very expensive option.

Does the SSD also have a proprietary connector or does OWC already offer upgrades?

Given that I just don't see the nMP being anywhere as long lived as the old cheese grater model and would be surprised if the resale value isn't affected by that.
 
Ahh yes, another "it isn't as limited as it looks, you're using it wrong/not a real pro" thread.

Or as I have recently liked to see them, "Who are you going to believe, The Gods at Apple, or your lying eyes?"

People aren't stupid. All those parts cast together in one lot, that was.

Really? Again?
I'm growing tired of your needless derision and belligerence.

The thread title should give you a clue as to what is really being said here. You sound like you didn't even bother to read the OP, as Charlie Clouser says nothing about "using it wrong" or "not a real pro" or "Gods at Apple". He simply states the reasons why he decided to go with the nMP.

Now, people have responded (and disagreed) in a civil and reasonable manner so far, and I'd like to keep it that way. If you can't do the same, I respectfully request that you refrain from posting in this thread. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

The usual suspects that trash the nMP on this board are basically luddites, or people trying to protect their outdated business models.

And it cuts both ways. This sort of stuff is just flame bait. Let's not do this here, okay?
 
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