One user's very coherent argument in favor of the nMP

[linuxcooldude]

There are 8 free PCIe 3.0 lanes from the CPU, and 8 free PCIe 2.0 lanes from the C600 PCH.

And where do you think the PCI lanes come from for the C600 PCH? Oh Yeah, from a PCI 3.0 lane directly from the CPU.

Also note that the "context" was to a branch from a comment from throAU that "There are not enough lanes left on the CPU/Chipset." The context was system lanes, not CPU lanes.

Wrong again, my response to throAU came directly from AnandTech website:

That takes care of the PCH, now let’s see what happens off of the CPU:

Of the 40 PCIe 3.0 lanes, 32 are already occupied by the two AMD FirePro GPUs. Having a full x16 interface to the GPUs isn’t really necessary for gaming performance, but if you want to treat each GPU as a first class citizen then this is the way to go. That leaves us with 8 PCIe 3.0 lanes left.

That being said, I was referencing CPU PCI lanes and not system PCI lanes. I don't need someone else telling me what context I'm talking about.

 

[AidenShaw]

And where do you think the PCI lanes come from for the C600 PCH? Oh Yeah, from a PCI 3.0 lane directly from the CPU.

I think that they come over the DMI link, like AnandTech showed:

Note that the PCIe links are horizontal, the DMI link is vertical. 40 Lanes left/right from the CPU, and 8 lanes left-right from the PCH. Are you really unable to look at this diagram and admit that you are simply wrong?

It was really generous of you to provide me with a link to a site that destroys every one of your arguments. It's been a pleasure.

That being said, I was referencing CPU PCI lanes and not system PCI lanes. I don't need someone else telling me what context I'm talking about.

Then perhaps instead of adding your posts to a thread that started with "CPU/chipset", you should have stated that you were moving the goalposts.

People buying the system are probably more concerned with "system PCIe lanes" than whether those lanes come from one chip or another. (And most of them don't even know or care what a PCIe lane is, as long as they can hook things up to it and have reasonable scaling as they plug in more cables.)

 

[Bubba Satori]

Stopped reading at 'haterade'.
Sloppy, infantile ad hominem for criticism op disagrees with.
Loaded thread title was an embarrassing tell.
'One users very coherent argument' implying others opinions are incoherent.
An argument is coherent on it's merits, not a declarative fallacy.
Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back in the future.

 

[zephonic]

Wow, I really got under your skin there, huh? No Valentine for you today?

Stopped reading at 'haterade'.

No, you didn't. Because this

Sloppy, infantile ad hominem for criticism op disagrees with.

indicates you read on.

Loaded thread title was an embarrassing tell.
'One users very coherent argument' implying others opinions are incoherent.

No, it does not imply anything. Only in your mind. There have been threads here calling the nMP a failure, which is okay with me. I thought it would be okay to post something of a positive nature.

An argument is coherent on it's merits, not a declarative fallacy.

Agree on the merit thing. How would you rate your own post on merit? Lot of useful info and articulately expressed opinion there. Bravo.

Don't hurt yourself patting yourself on the back in the future.

Sounds like you could use a little more patting on yours.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Then perhaps instead of adding your posts to a thread that started with "CPU/chipset", you should have stated that you were moving the goalposts.

First, the thread is not "CPU/chipsets" its "One users very coherent argument in favor of the nMP" My comment was to a post that was indirectly linked to his post. It does not mean I agree with everything from another post that I never quoted.

Stop blaming goalposts when your having trouble keeping up. 32 lanes going to the dual GPU should of clued you in it was CPU lanes and not from the system...you should of noticed with all those pictures you were posting.

It was really generous of you to provide me with a link to a site that destroys every one of your arguments. It's been a pleasure.

Just a lame attempt at a strawmans argument.

 

[Roykor]

2 days ago i was in a studio and the Apple talk came up. He and his team moved over to PC machines (HP) simple because of the hardware. Specially with Adobe tools, and other Cuda hungry stuff. They have worked with Apple sinds the nineties.

Anyway, we conclude in our conversation that many ppl who grew up with Apple in the creative sector.. are a bit married with the brand and special with OSx. But, than again, they (Apple) have left the Pro market for some time now or at least doesn't take it serious. Check the very slow updates on the mac pro line (also before the nMP), the lack of any nvidia options, the lack of more other choices you would like to make to configure your machine for the muscle on the right places. Not even mention the horrible glass screens (really Apple, really??)

I think, and it depends on what your doing for a living and which tools you use, we can conclude easily without any shame that Apple is following the money like a business should do. So focus on iPhones, focus on laptops and focus on tablets and desktop iMacs.

If you still think that Apple is rock on in the Pro market and have your back, you must be a real hardcore fan or afraid to peek in the other corner (Microsoft) what you can buy (PC) and do over there. Thats fine and okey with me. Just keep in mind that Apple machines are not magical or special. Just (older) computer parts. Its the OS that makes it for me that i would stay with Apple. But its the hardware and the way Apple is keeping everything a mystery, that pushes me, and apparently others (studio i visited) away.

I think, that a lot of negative reacties about the nMP are pure from frustration. People don't want to leave, but some have no good options with Apple. People don't want to pay max money on old stuff, but have to..... if they want to stay with Apple. There is not news on where Apple is going to because they keep everything a secret. So we can hype it all over again when a tiny tweet somewhere is leaking any information. I am sick of there marketing strategy and how they play with us like toys.

So, my little rant on this. I am frustrated to. you know. I am feared about my next move to W10. But i will do it! I am glad for you tho (Topic starter) that you are very happy with the nMP. I don't say its a bad machine by the way. Its just very narrowed down machine. Here, we have created an awesome machine in a very small round box with hardware that fits for all purposes. Thats not how it works right. Nah. they have lost this match.

 

[AidenShaw]

Just a lame attempt at a strawmans argument.

Good job at avoiding answering the question that I posed below....

Note that the PCIe links are horizontal, the DMI link is vertical. 40 Lanes left/right from the CPU, and 8 lanes left-right from the PCH. Are you really unable to look at this diagram and admit that you are simply wrong?

___________
Anyway, the point has been made and accepted that the MP6,1 system has 48 native PCIe lanes (40 from the E5-x6xx v2 CPU and 8 from the C600 PCH). Apple uses a PCIe switch to extend that to 56 lanes.

Nothing to be gained by arguing about whether some comment was based on some undefined or ambiguous context.

 

[burnsranch]

Honestly, I don't understand what your post is about. Having dealt with both hardware (desktop) and OS migrations for multi-state companies, there is nothing in your post that reflects value of the Mac Mini Pro.

1) A C type language, microcode then hardware - says nothing with respect to the Mac Mini Pro
2) The Mac Mini pro "going that direction" - what direction?
3) Quantum leap in that area - what area? What are you talking about?
4) Large scale customer support standpoint - any enterprise that has only one model of desktop makes support easier.
5) Executing migrations correctly - again has nothing to do with Mac Mini Pro. PM work remains the same.
6) You lose short term business betting on the long term - what are you talking about?
7) Referencing videos such as police videos etc. again has nothing to do with advantages of the Mac Mini Pro. Nothing.

The reality is that it is a somewhat closed system like Micro-Channel was for IBM. Does it work, sure..can it do certain things well yes. Is it more like an appliance in that little change can be done to it on its internals, yes. However, there are so many counterparts that do the same thing and are more flexible systems. You have presented not one tangible point that supports the Mac Mini Pro as a superior contender.

Normally, I don't reference my work experience but you brought up yours and now you have someone who is contrary to your offering and hope you will be kind enough to explain your thoughts here.

If you look at the hardware migration of Internet routers, the vendors who threw cpu hardware at the issues won in the short term, those who took c to microcode to hardware won out in the long term.

It is a simple straight forward migration. The computer market is more feature rich so that migration will be slower.

I retired from networking in 2000, but I helped develop a lot of the technology being used today.

I can see apple's direction pretty clearly. Both from a technical sense and a business sense. What they do not offer is guidance. That is a two edged sword. If you are that far ahead of a technical change, it does not matter. If you screw up the execution or timing you have a dead product.

The next upgrade will tell if they are committed. It still may not be the end solution, but clearer direction.

What will be interesting will not be the cpu power, but the fundamental changes to video processing. It may not be a performance breakout, an intermediate step again

Honestly, I don't understand what your post is about. Having dealt with both hardware (desktop) and OS migrations for multi-state companies, there is nothing in your post that reflects value of the Mac Mini Pro.

1) A C type language, microcode then hardware - says nothing with respect to the Mac Mini Pro
2) The Mac Mini pro "going that direction" - what direction?
3) Quantum leap in that area - what area? What are you talking about?
4) Large scale customer support standpoint - any enterprise that has only one model of desktop makes support easier.
5) Executing migrations correctly - again has nothing to do with Mac Mini Pro. PM work remains the same.
6) You lose short term business betting on the long term - what are you talking about?
7) Referencing videos such as police videos etc. again has nothing to do with advantages of the Mac Mini Pro. Nothing.

The reality is that it is a somewhat closed system like Micro-Channel was for IBM. Does it work, sure..can it do certain things well yes. Is it more like an appliance in that little change can be done to it on its internals, yes. However, there are so many counterparts that do the same thing and are more flexible systems. You have presented not one tangible point that supports the Mac Mini Pro as a superior contender.

Normally, I don't reference my work experience but you brought up yours and now you have someone who is contrary to your offering and hope you will be kind enough to explain your thoughts here.

[doublepost=1455513733][/doublepost]

If you look at the hardware migration of Internet routers, the vendors who threw cpu hardware at the issues won in the short term, those who took c to microcode to hardware won out in the long term.

It is a simple straight forward migration. The computer market is more feature rich so that migration will be slower.

I retired from networking in 2000, but I helped develop a lot of the technology being used today.

I can see apple's direction pretty clearly. Both from a technical sense and a business sense. What they do not offer is guidance. That is a two edged sword. If you are that far ahead of a technical change, it does not matter. If you screw up the execution or timing you have a dead product.

The next upgrade will tell if they are committed. It still may not be the end solution, but clearer direction.

What will be interesting will not be the cpu power, but the fundamental changes to video processing. It may not be a performance breakout, an intermediate step again

I was talking about the new Mac Pro , not the Mac mini.

I try to stay out of technical weeds, I spent to many years there and burned out. I bought my new Mac Pro as a tool, and was surprised at the design, warts and all. The next upgrade will be interesting.

 

[phrehdd]

If you look at the hardware migration of Internet routers, the vendors who threw cpu hardware at the issues won in the short term, those who took c to microcode to hardware won out in the long term.

It is a simple straight forward migration. The computer market is more feature rich so that migration will be slower.

I retired from networking in 2000, but I helped develop a lot of the technology being used today.

I can see apple's direction pretty clearly. Both from a technical sense and a business sense. What they do not offer is guidance. That is a two edged sword. If you are that far ahead of a technical change, it does not matter. If you screw up the execution or timing you have a dead product.

The next upgrade will tell if they are committed. It still may not be the end solution, but clearer direction.

What will be interesting will not be the cpu power, but the fundamental changes to video processing. It may not be a performance breakout, an intermediate step again

[doublepost=1455513733][/doublepost]
I was talking about the new Mac Pro , not the Mac mini.

I try to stay out of technical weeds, I spent to many years there and burned out. I bought my new Mac Pro as a tool, and was surprised at the design, warts and all. The next upgrade will be interesting.

I was also talking about the nMP aka Mac Mini Pro (since it has a lot more in common in design to the Mini than a Mac Pro).

Screw the talk about microcode as it has nothing to do with any of the Mac Pro line including the nMP. That is a misdirection if ever I saw one. The Mac Pro Mini (nMP for your sake) is just another closed computer and why you insist on talking about video is beyond me. There are lots of computers that can do the same work so it is nothing short of just a form over function design on Apple's part. Call a spade a spade. While I'll respect your time in the industry just be aware there are others who are also in the industry, been around the proverbial block a couple of times and also continue in the industry. Again, i find (and not being rude, sarcastic or with some animadversion here) that your commentary really doesn't chime in with anything about the nMP vs tower or competitive computers with respect to capability. For me, the bottom line is that the nMP made the Mac Pro into even more of a niche product rather than expanding its user base. From a marketing perspective, Apple may simply consider it a token piece while it focuses on all its other market share items within the computer realm (namely the iMac). Incidentally, computers such as those by Lenevo sell very well here and over seas and continue a rampage to be the top computer company when it comes to sales.

 

[throAU]

The system has 48 lanes.

it has 48 connections, and 40 lanes worth of bandwidth. Anything going through that switch is not getting the full PCIe bandwidth per lane.

If you want your devices to be fighting for bandwidth then well, fine i guess.

 

[burnsranch]

I was also talking about the nMP aka Mac Mini Pro (since it has a lot more in common in design to the Mini than a Mac Pro).

Screw the talk about microcode as it has nothing to do with any of the Mac Pro line including the nMP. That is a misdirection if ever I saw one. The Mac Pro Mini (nMP for your sake) is just another closed computer and why you insist on talking about video is beyond me. There are lots of computers that can do the same work so it is nothing short of just a form over function design on Apple's part. Call a spade a spade. While I'll respect your time in the industry just be aware there are others who are also in the industry, been around the proverbial block a couple of times and also continue in the industry. Again, i find (and not being rude, sarcastic or with some animadversion here) that your commentary really doesn't chime in with anything about the nMP vs tower or competitive computers with respect to capability. For me, the bottom line is that the nMP made the Mac Pro into even more of a niche product rather than expanding its user base. From a marketing perspective, Apple may simply consider it a token piece while it focuses on all its other market share items within the computer realm (namely the iMac). Incidentally, computers such as those by Lenevo sell very well here and over seas and continue a rampage to be the top computer company when it comes to sales.

There is a difference between sales and building a product for a 10 year shift in technology. If you consider the impact that raw searchable video data bases will have over the nest 10 years, you can see that market will outstrip the consumer market. It will change everything from security, to medicine, to science, to engineering, to teaching. Few people today understand the impact that will have over the next 10years

 

[linuxcooldude]

Good job at avoiding answering the question that I posed below....Are you really unable to look at this diagram and admit that you are simply wrong?

What you got wrong was my post. I'm talking about CPU lanes, not system lanes. Your adding switched PCI lanes in attempt to make my post look bad, than declare yourself the winner, quite funny actually.

 

[shaunp]

While the trash can mac is cute one question you ask is what do you get of 3 grand .this photo shows how this is not a real pro machine

Mine looks like that - two monitors and 2 thunderbolt arrays, a load of USB stuff and both ethernet ports used. Messy.

While I agree on the need for storage to be external when you need lots of it, and I guess this is Apple's idea of a 'Pro', the nMP doesn't scale high enough in terms of CPU, GPU and RAM compared to other 'pro' machines like the HP Z or Dell Precision. The current nMP would sit well between the mini and a Mac Pro that is in a full case and scales much better. I would be happy for the nMP to be just the 'Mac' and have a core i7, upto 64GB RAM, 1 decent GPU and 2-3 PCI-e storage slots. As someone who uses their nMP for photo editing in Lightroom and a development platform in VMWare this config would work very well for me - I'd just put 2-3 2TB+ SSD's in there. Older data can sit on my NAS and have another NAS for backups.

It seems to me loads of people want the Mac that sits between the Mini and the nMP, but one that isn't an iMac. There's also a fair number of people who want a Mac in a larger case so they can add bits as they want to. But Apple still want us all to have an iMac. Why?

 

[AidenShaw]

What you got wrong was my post. I'm talking about CPU lanes, not system lanes. Your adding switched PCI lanes in attempt to make my post look bad, than declare yourself the winner, quite funny actually.

... never mind ...

 

[turbineseaplane]

The current nMP would sit well between the mini and a Mac Pro that is in a full case and scales much better.

Totally agree


Re: The OP

As others have stated in here already...It just reads to me like the gentleman liked a "new computer" instead of an old one...not really anything inherently about the nMP or that form factor itself.

I love the part where he says: "I have found the new cylinders to "feel" faster"

LMAO - Shocker!

I love it when my new clothes feel newer!

 

[phrehdd]

There is a difference between sales and building a product for a 10 year shift in technology. If you consider the impact that raw searchable video data bases will have over the nest 10 years, you can see that market will outstrip the consumer market. It will change everything from security, to medicine, to science, to engineering, to teaching. Few people today understand the impact that will have over the next 10years

What are you talking about? This is about the nMP and the fact is it just a computer that is somewhat closed. This has nothing to do with your paradigm shift comment. Absolutely nothing given there are other makers of computers with similar feature sets. If you are suggesting that computers will be more like appliances in the future then say so. Otherwise, your comment says absolutely nothing with respect to this thread. As well, if Apple insisted on making their top tier computers for non-consumers, they would most likely market it that way or gain larger inroads already to get a foot hold. No sir, you have said absolutely nothing here that makes any sense or is relative to the thread. Maybe your "micro code" needs debugging.

 

[MacVidCards]

Searchable video database, is he talking about YouTube? I once found this video where a...never mind.

 

[AidenShaw]

Searchable video database, is he talking about YouTube? I once found this video where a...never mind.

And once again, porn will be the driving force for the next generation of computing technology.

 

[Roykor]

haha, yep! Just like the VHS tapes, CDroms, DVD, the internet.. and VR soon!

 

[phrehdd]

haha, yep! Just like the VHS tapes, CDroms, DVD, the internet.. and VR soon!

Yep, adult entertainment is a hard driving force with deep penetration into the above named.

 

[phillyboy82]

T-Bolt 3 is available as well, plus 10 GbE.

I saw your point, but disagree.

Apple could be selling an MP7,1 today (and for many months before today) with

• 18 cores / 36 threads
• 256 GiB of 2133 MHz DDR4
• T-Bolt 3 (with external GPU support)
• 10 GbE
• NVMe SSD storage

That can't be dismissed as merely "a processor speed bump".

I wish they would have just updated with Haswell-E X99. There isn't really an excuse for Apple when they can use single-socket E5 v3 processors and have been able for over a year now. Sounds like their computer hardware division has different priorities, unfortunately.

It probably will be a USB-C/Thunderbolt 3/USB 3.1 gig now. Will they wait for Broadwell-E (still x99) is another other question.

 

[thefredelement]

I tend to think they're waiting for a few ducks to align in a row, one of them being GPU. In the mean time the 2013 Mac Pro is still a remarkable computer that gets a lot of work done.

 

[Roykor]

I tend to think they're waiting for a few ducks to align in a row, one of them being GPU. In the mean time the 2013 Mac Pro is still a remarkable computer that gets a lot of work done.

For sure, raw power. Its only a bit silly. Almost getting behind 3 years. And 3 years in the world of computers is A LOT. Apple needs a lot of time to update there little beast too today standards while HP and Dell are upgrading there pro line constantly, and giving you much more options to configure the muscle where u need it.

I see no single reason to defend this slow progress. In the meantime there hot lines (iPhones, iMacs, MacBooks, iPads, iwatch) are receiving their upgrades.

From my perspective your buying some old stuf for premium price in a shiny box and great marketing talk. I consider myself as an OSX lover, but hating the way Apple play with there customers. Anyone on the planet who buys a nMP today or tomorrow is keeping this treatment alive and Apple smiles. tjakatjing$$

my 2 cents

 

[thefredelement]

I understand what HP & Dell are doing, Apple put themselves into a new trajectory with the 2013 form factor. It may not make the same sense for them to re design it for a few spec bumps without a cohesive goal in mind. They like saying things like "2x faster than the previous model". Xeon e5 v3s aren't twice as fast as v2s. The same can be said for AMD workstation GPUs. I don't know what Nvidia does for workstation class GPUs to be honest.

They could have upgraded to v3s, maybe thunderbolt 3 but for what and to what end? To re-design things that are marginally faster in some operations than what currently exists? And if that was the plan, where is the line drawn? What minor bumps are deemed worth waiting for? Or should they release a new one every year like they used to? I'm not sure that makes sense with how Xeons are released these days. Imagine a 2014 came out but just with NVMe storage? How would this forum react to that?

I do agree with your point about the price though, I love the 2013 and bought one recently but couldn't justify spending what they're asking on it - if I didn't get it as a refurb and with a ton of cash back I wouldn't have gotten it. Which is probably a shame b/c it's made my life so much easier and I wouldn't have been able to enjoy that over $800.

For sure, raw power. Its only a bit silly. Almost getting behind 3 years. And 3 years in the world of computers is A LOT. Apple needs a lot of time to update there little beast too today standards while HP and Dell are upgrading there pro line constantly, and giving you much more options to configure the muscle where u need it.

I see no single reason to defend this slow progress. In the meantime there hot lines (iPhones, iMacs, MacBooks, iPads, iwatch) are receiving their upgrades.

From my perspective your buying some old stuf for premium price in a shiny box and great marketing talk. I consider myself as an OSX lover, but hating the way Apple play with there customers. Anyone on the planet who buys a nMP today or tomorrow is keeping this treatment alive and Apple smiles. tjakatjing$$

my 2 cents