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OS X 10.10.4 and Wi-Fi Performance
- Thread starter hsouris
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I'm not sure I buy this. Windows (for all it's problems) doesn't have this widespread issue. If there is a wi-fi issue, microsoft either push out a windows update or the manufacturer pushes out a driver update. My point is, there is almost always a permanent fix even if it takes some messing around.
Apple have had no permanent fix (possibly up until now) for what, 9 months? Neither users nor Apple have found a permanent work around. In my mind this is completely unacceptable when Apple only need to support a handful of different configurations. With a windows machine there are 10's of thousands of different configurations and it never takes this long to fix.
It's quite clear that Apple are the problem not the 802.11ac standard.
You don't have to buy it, it's just the general experience with managing wifi networks both small scale (5 users) and large scale (10.000+ users). You may want to browse the Ubiquiti Networks forums. They sell enterprise grade access points and there is a lot of discussion on their forums concerning wifi problems. The devices used are not limited to Apple only, it's nearly every device that uses wifi.
There are now some scientific studies to investigate the problems with wifi. The 2.4GHz band is now jam packed causing so much noise and interference that only ~20% of the network traffic is actual data (the link is already 3 years old so the problem has gotten bigger in the meantime!). The other ~80% is overhead trying to deal with all the noise/interference. The 802.11ac standard didn't do much in this area, they were mostly trying to get more speed out of wireless. As you can see that is not what is needed now, we need something that deals with all the noise and interference we have due to an overcrowded 2.4GHz band. Mind you, in case of 802.11ac we have another problem: it's still in its infancy. Not that many devices use it and the ones that do are not that very stable. A lot of people are waiting for the wave 2 hardware.
Another problem is not even caused by wifi stuff itself but by the dhcp client on the device. Lots of universities in the Netherlands ran into this problem as well as some universities in the USA and even some companies (Dutch link, use a translation service). The root cause was a buggy dhcp client in an old Android version still running on many devices. Google nor any of the manufacturers have addressed the issue (unless you consider buying a new phone with a newer Android version to be "addressing the issue"). Each device comes with its own radio and antenna design which can either be a wonderful piece of engineering or just something crappy. The same can be said about firmware updates for both access points and routers as well as clients. It is not uncommon that the wifi settings of the network need to be changed or the firmware needs to be update because Google, Apple, Microsoft or many of the others came out with a new driver or firmware version.
In regard to Microsoft...don't expect anything from them. The Surface, Surface Pro and Surface Pro 2 all have a very crappy wifi support. Up until now Microsoft hasn't been able to fix them. There have been some new drivers but the issues remain. The only way you can actually use wifi on those devices is by not enabling bluetooth. The speed will be more in the realms of 802.11g instead of 802.11n which is stated in the specs. The Surface Pro 3 uses different hardware that is a little bit better but, again, not problem free. Both Microsoft and Apple are dependant on the quality of the available hardware. If that isn't up to par no software update is going to fix things.
You are also very wrong about the amount of configurations they have to support. No wifi network is the same but they'll have to support all of them. In reality there is not that much difference in the amount of configs that have to be supported between all the various clients. The various combinations are almost endless and unfortunately that makes the list of causes just as endless. Wifi is a complete nightmare for any engineer to troubleshoot due to it having so many possible causes. Don't underestimate it. When wifi was created they never thought it was going to be as widespread as it is now and it shows in the protocols. It's similar to DNS, it doesn't have any security because they didn't expect that it needed it. The world has changed and we need it badly now.
So yes, wifi is a pita and it's not really Apple or anyone else's fault. We made choices back then and designed it to what we knew back then. That knowledge is now very outdated and we need something that is more of this age. Until then expect wifi problems with any device and software updates that won't fix them all.
There are now some scientific studies to investigate the problems with wifi. The 2.4GHz band is now jam packed causing so much noise and interference that only ~20% of the network traffic is actual data (the link is already 3 years old so the problem has gotten bigger in the meantime!). The other ~80% is overhead trying to deal with all the noise/interference. The 802.11ac standard didn't do much in this area, they were mostly trying to get more speed out of wireless. As you can see that is not what is needed now, we need something that deals with all the noise and interference we have due to an overcrowded 2.4GHz band. Mind you, in case of 802.11ac we have another problem: it's still in its infancy. Not that many devices use it and the ones that do are not that very stable. A lot of people are waiting for the wave 2 hardware.
Another problem is not even caused by wifi stuff itself but by the dhcp client on the device. Lots of universities in the Netherlands ran into this problem as well as some universities in the USA and even some companies (Dutch link, use a translation service). The root cause was a buggy dhcp client in an old Android version still running on many devices. Google nor any of the manufacturers have addressed the issue (unless you consider buying a new phone with a newer Android version to be "addressing the issue"). Each device comes with its own radio and antenna design which can either be a wonderful piece of engineering or just something crappy. The same can be said about firmware updates for both access points and routers as well as clients. It is not uncommon that the wifi settings of the network need to be changed or the firmware needs to be update because Google, Apple, Microsoft or many of the others came out with a new driver or firmware version.
In regard to Microsoft...don't expect anything from them. The Surface, Surface Pro and Surface Pro 2 all have a very crappy wifi support. Up until now Microsoft hasn't been able to fix them. There have been some new drivers but the issues remain. The only way you can actually use wifi on those devices is by not enabling bluetooth. The speed will be more in the realms of 802.11g instead of 802.11n which is stated in the specs. The Surface Pro 3 uses different hardware that is a little bit better but, again, not problem free. Both Microsoft and Apple are dependant on the quality of the available hardware. If that isn't up to par no software update is going to fix things.
You are also very wrong about the amount of configurations they have to support. No wifi network is the same but they'll have to support all of them. In reality there is not that much difference in the amount of configs that have to be supported between all the various clients. The various combinations are almost endless and unfortunately that makes the list of causes just as endless. Wifi is a complete nightmare for any engineer to troubleshoot due to it having so many possible causes. Don't underestimate it. When wifi was created they never thought it was going to be as widespread as it is now and it shows in the protocols. It's similar to DNS, it doesn't have any security because they didn't expect that it needed it. The world has changed and we need it badly now.
So yes, wifi is a pita and it's not really Apple or anyone else's fault. We made choices back then and designed it to what we knew back then. That knowledge is now very outdated and we need something that is more of this age. Until then expect wifi problems with any device and software updates that won't fix them all.
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That's all well and good but when you have 2 other ac devices and 2 other non ac devices on the network not having any problems whatsoever, also the fact that I had no such problems on Mavericks and the fact that this is a very widespread and common complaint from other users using Yosemite it all points towards Apple having a problem with Yosemite.
Anyway, this update has completely fixed my issues for now so again it looked like a software issue.
I have just done this. Will report back with findings. Thanks for the post, here's hoping...
EDIT:
40 minutes going strong.
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Keeping fingers crossed!
Apple errors are so much more cryptic than Microsoft's. When I still used Windows (98 I think), I constantly had problems, but they were pretty easy to fix. Since I switched to Mac I rarely get problems, but once I do, they require Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell to fix.
Apple errors are so much more cryptic than Microsoft's. When I still used Windows (98 I think), I constantly had problems, but they were pretty easy to fix. Since I switched to Mac I rarely get problems, but once I do, they require Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell to fix.
Update: Lasted me about 5 hours. However, I then proceeded to lose internet and have to toggle WiFi on and off. However, the hack seems to have made that happen much less frequently (every couple of hours instead of every few minutes) and for that I am grateful. Thanks for everyone's help. "Hopefully this gets resolved soon!" (voice echoes into oblivion)
"You installed an update and now it doesn't work"...one of the most used phrases by users. In most of the cases the update had nothing to do with it. Something else broke or it was already broken and they've only started to notice it. Only on a very few occasions did the update indeed break it.
In your case yes but there are many others that see no difference from before (see some of the replies here). In their case it is questionable if this is even a software issue and if so if this is even an iOS issue. It might be but it might very well be something different like their router/ap.
The problem with wifi is the enormous list of possible causes. There are too many possibilities and a lot of them cause the same issues. It's like with a headache. It can be a normal headache, it can be a tumor, it can be due to being hit by a blunt object. Each needs to be treated differently. You just can't assume it's an ordinary headache and sent someone home with some aspirins, if they have one of the other options they might die. It is not as simple as you think.
Same here, in fact, my wifi works worse without discoveryd. in 10.10.3 my wifi worked fine.
10.10.4 and my wifi will suddenly drop sometimes, forcing me to reconnect, my wifi is not restored upon wake from sleep, and airdrop to my mac is now broken where it worked before.
I appreciate and agree with what you're saying in general but in this case there is no denying that 10.10 is the common denominator.
Until you look at the people who've had no problem with 10.10, wifi and people who still have problems with wifi with the new 10.10.4 update and people who've found that something else fixes their wifi problems. The actual situation is that you cannot confirm nor deny that 10.10 is the common denominator. People love pointing their fingers at something so they can blame someone or something. Unfortunately that doesn't bring them 1 step closer to a solution.
It never ceases to amaze me that some in every discussion forum just don't ever want to admit that maybe, just maybe, Apple screwed something up, and it's not just a "coincidence" say, that when 10.10 came out lots of users had wifi issues. I've not only seen hundreds posting in various forums, but there have been numerous articles written about it, so yes, you can confirm that 10.10 is the common denominator, because empirically speaking, it simply is.
When people have problems, and come to these forums, the last thing they want to hear is someone saying, "I've never had a problem with any OS or any update", or being told their issue is all in their head, or has to be something they screwed up. Now, of course either may be true for some people, but to come out the gate with that unhelpful, condescending chiding, is pointless. If you think someone's an idiot, just move on....
**** APPLE!
my wifi is ****ing horrible after 10.10.4 upgrade, it drives me crazy. websites are loading 10% then freeze.
I have no problems under bootcamp windows 10. First u buy a laptop for 2k bucks and u get ****.
YEAH **** APPLE
my wifi is ****ing horrible after 10.10.4 upgrade, it drives me crazy. websites are loading 10% then freeze.
I have no problems under bootcamp windows 10. First u buy a laptop for 2k bucks and u get ****.
YEAH **** APPLE
It ceases to amaze me that in every discussion the only possible outcome is that the manufacturer screwed up and anyone proposing something different is considered a fanboy, idiot, doesn't understand things, is ignoring or even denying the "problem". It ceases to amaze me that in every discussion people have absolutely zero interest in solving their problems. It ceases to amaze me that people rather have boatloads of issues then actually trying to understand the issue in order to get it resolved.
Emperically speaking you're drawing the wrong conclusion because meanwhile Apple has pushed out lots of updates for numerous OS X versions to fix wifi problems. Yet people still complain. When we look at other operating systems we see the exact same situation. Then there are the numerous scientific researches and site surveys that show wifi sucks. Lots of topics on forums about people complaining about the overcrowded 2.4GHz band. If we put all of that together then the only correct conclusion to draw is: 1. wifi is problematic no matter what hardware or software you use and 2. there are a gazillion fixes (just take a look at the topics on discussions.apple.com...the amount of possible fixes is just ridiculous, basically just do everything and you might eventually fix it...or not).
So basically you can either be naive and still think that fixing OS X will solve your wifi problem, or you can be a bit more realistic and accept the fact that wifi is rather problematic and complex. An OS X update might fix your problem but so does switching to 5GHz, switching to 2.4GHz, turning off bluetooth, upgrading the router/AP's firmware, buy a different router/ap that doesn't cause issues, position the router/ap differently, tighten the antennae, get a better antenna, get rid off the old microwave oven, get a different garage door remote, buy more ap's or a repeater to increase the wifi, increase the radio signal, decrease the radio signal, change the minrssi, change the max rssi, don't use RADIUS, upgrade RADIUS, do use RADIUS, move to 802.1X, switch to EAS with psk, tell the neighbour to turn down the radio of his wifi stuff, reinstalling your device, reinstalling the router/ap, not use roaming on the ap/router, do use roaming on the ap/router instead of the device, fix your dhcp server and so on and so on.
When you want to solve a problem you should never focus on 1 cause (in this case: OS X). You'll find the root of the problem much quicker when you look at the entire thing. And another piece of advice: when someone is giving you advice...LISTEN, you might benefit from it.
So are you interested in finding the solution and helping others or is complaining all you want to do?
Edit: reading the reply from SaxnFlutman below (#44) the answer to that question is a crystal clear "no interested in finding any solution at all". Thank you for clearing this up.
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10.10.4…….My experience.
I finally decided to switch to Yosemite 10.10.4 (from Mavericks) as everything was reported to be solid with all of the bugs worked out.
After upgrading, Safari + WiFi was pretty much awful. If I selected a link in top sites it would take up to 45 seconds for the page to load. Some days were better than others, but for the most part is was very annoying.
After 4 days I switched back to Mavericks and everything is just great. Pages load instantly, there is no lag and no worries.
So for me, common denominator = Yosemite.
I finally decided to switch to Yosemite 10.10.4 (from Mavericks) as everything was reported to be solid with all of the bugs worked out.
After upgrading, Safari + WiFi was pretty much awful. If I selected a link in top sites it would take up to 45 seconds for the page to load. Some days were better than others, but for the most part is was very annoying.
After 4 days I switched back to Mavericks and everything is just great. Pages load instantly, there is no lag and no worries.
So for me, common denominator = Yosemite.
The thing is @dyn, with saying apple have issued a load of fixes...they really haven't. They've pushed out a load of attempted fixes. I'm also not denying that other OS's don't have all sorts of problems but the thing with Windows (for example) is that one way or another you can fix the issue. It may be a total rig-moral to fix but it will get fixed. With the Yosemite wifi issue there has been literally no fix. There was nothing you could do to fix the issue. (I tried every fix in the book including different routers in completely different locations).
Luckily for me 10.10.4 seems to have pretty much fixed the issue. It's not as stable as it was with Mavericks but it's stable enough for me.
Luckily for me 10.10.4 seems to have pretty much fixed the issue. It's not as stable as it was with Mavericks but it's stable enough for me.
I intentionally waited for the Yosemite wifi issue to cool down. So when Apple announced the return to mDNSResponder, I made the move. Incidentally, just before I upgraded my 2012 MBP 15" from 10.9.5 to 10.10.4, I was having intermittent connections to my iPhone 4s's hotspot. The problem is gone now. Since then we've upgraded my daughter's 2011 MBP 13" (from 10.8) and my 2009 iBook 13" (from 10.6) to 10.10.4 too. No wifi problems. Knock on wood.
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My Wi-Fi is working good with 10.10.4 at the moment, but I see strange things with DNS. I took my MacBook Air today to a coffeeshop, no not one Amsterdam is famous about. ;-)
Despite the fact that I had a good connection I couldn't browse the Web. I disabled Wi-Fi in the network settings and then enabled it again, after this I could use the Internet. This afternoon back at home I saw that the DNS server in the settings was still the one they use at the coffeeshop, 8.8.8.8. I checked this with scutil --dns in the terminal. Normally the DNS server at home has the IP-number of my ADSL router, 192.168.1.254 (automatically assigned). If this IP-number was in my settings at the coffeeshop I can understand that I couldn't reach anything on the Internet.
Did anyone see this happening also? What can I do about it besides disabling and enabeling Wi-Fi?
Despite the fact that I had a good connection I couldn't browse the Web. I disabled Wi-Fi in the network settings and then enabled it again, after this I could use the Internet. This afternoon back at home I saw that the DNS server in the settings was still the one they use at the coffeeshop, 8.8.8.8. I checked this with scutil --dns in the terminal. Normally the DNS server at home has the IP-number of my ADSL router, 192.168.1.254 (automatically assigned). If this IP-number was in my settings at the coffeeshop I can understand that I couldn't reach anything on the Internet.
Did anyone see this happening also? What can I do about it besides disabling and enabeling Wi-Fi?
Have a 2015 13" rMBP, 2009 MBP and 2011 27" iMac all running 10.10.4 and I have no WiFi issues as well. In fact I have not had any WiFi issues with 10.10.2 or 10.10.3. Puzzles me why some are having the WiFi issues and others are not.
That was exactly my point: they have brought out a lot of fixes which fixed it for some and didn't for others. Looking at all the wifi problems and various solutions it is a very good idea to also look elsewhere and see if something else is causing the issue.
Not always. The Microsoft Surface Pro and Pro 2 are known for their crappy radios. Software updates didn't do anything about that because it is just the hardware that is the problem. Also, when it is the driver that is the culprit you usually will have to wait for the manufacturer (often times the OEM) to release a driver. Most of them are really bad in that area (reason why a lot of people use the drivers from the manufacturer of the actual hardware/chip).
The state of wifi atm seems to be one where we need lots of software updates and tweaking to get things fixed. That's quite a worrying situation and makes the lives of network admins rather difficult. We need to aim our arrows at solving those problems instead of increasing the wifi speed. A lot of people are starting to do just that. It'll get fixed...eventually
