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Do you like the new Mac Pro 2019


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When I first saw it on the Keynote , I thought ( after checking my kitchen to make sure I could still grate the mozzarella for that night's lasagna) it was pretty interesting . Lots of attention to detail on the inside , and what appears to be some slick machining on the front . But the handles ! What were they thinking ??? Looks like some senior citizen is missing a walker !
Cook ,Ive and co. can , and have done better design wise , though I'll bet the case cost alone is close to a grand . At least they didn't make it thinner .
Luckily I have no use for the thing , it's way overkill for me , though TBH if there was a 'bottom feeder' version with an i7 or i9 at half the price I might have jumped.
 
Does anyone know where the nCMP will be made? My guess is the Austin TX site that made the trashcan mac will be making them. But do we know for sure?

That facility may not be all that appropriate. The volume here is probably going to be even smaller than the Mac Pro 2013. The initial demand bubble will probably be a bit different. ( might be a temporary surge that is higher but the steady state run rate is probably lower. )

That specific Austin site may not be the right size. "thousands of cheap Chinese laborers" is certainly not the right size either.

If they are planning to use the giant pile of aluminum cuttings to feed into MacBook Air retina cases then chunks of it will be close to that case building location.

It also wouldn't be surprising to end up in Cork IR to satisfy some tax shelter hocus pocus that Apple wanted to do if they wanted to bring it more "in house".

All Apple has to do is use 2-3.5 months to build an inventory for the intial demand bubble and then build at a relatively low run rate. They can do that with a modest sized facility in a variety of places. there is no "it will only fit here" constraint on this.



Could that be adding to the expense of this model?

No. It really didn't relatively do all that much to the Mac Pro 2013. This 100% increase in base revenue ... even less.
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I think although Apple will be getting a good deal on the CPU's they won't pass that on to us and I think the deal is across all the Intel CPU's that Apple uses. I don't think they get 50% off on everything but it probably equates to that level of discount once you normalise all their discounts across the full range of processors, chipsets and thunderbolt chips that Apple is buying.

Doubtful apple is getting 50% off because they use "Just in Time" manufacturing contracts. They set an upper limit of the volume they want to buy at some price but then also monthly/weekly sends notices in of how much to sell. The latter behavior is that of a spot market buyer. Spot market buyers don't get 50% discounts. Apple probably has some "minimal" buy boundaries in there to get some substantive discounts but Intel would have to be quite foolish to give them 50% discounts no matter what. That whole "cut off orders quickly" thing is a shift of the risk back to the suppliers. If Intel had some hyper shorter of parts they could aways diver there is lower risk but


It's not uncommon for Intel to give rebates or discounts to OEM's that don't use AMD parts. They famously gave Dell billions of dollars in rebates to keep them an Intel exclusive shop.

And Intel has been slapped around for anticompetive contracts in the past too. Intel also gives discounts to vendors for slapping the Intel Inside stick on their systems and Apple 100% passed on that too. Apple isn't doing absolutely everything possible to maximize the Intel discounts they get. That is one reason why they have some leverage to get minor tweaks to the processors ( like the ones in the iMac Pro), because they actually probably are closer to paying "full freight" on the processors and just simply add that to the basic cost of the systems.


As for the T2, it does enable hardware acceleration of H.265 video encoding. But to what degree I'm not sure and usually software only encoding can give better results due to the constant quality enhancements added to the encoder (x265 in this case) which is why people choose not to use the hardware based H.265 encoders present in NVIDIA GPU's - Quality vs Speed. The AVX2 and AVX-512 instructions are perfect for software as they're just ways to do specific math operations very quickly and simultaneously.

There is about zero indication I've seen that this encoding expands past the Apple camera the T2 is hooked to in most systems. In mac systems with a built-in "FaceTime" camera, that subsystem is hooked directly to the T2 (and the system 'sees" the camera through the T2). This just replicating the same general set up in a iPhone or iPad where the Apple SoC handles the camera data encoding. It also makes for a cheaper camera subsystem because all it has to do is 'burp' raw sensor data off of the subsystem and off to the Apple SoC. If the data link off the sensor is fast enough they don't even need a local buffer to store the data. ( Can use the SoC's RAM as the buffer. )

For the Mac Mini and Mac Pro that probably does a whole lot of nothing because those systems do not have a "FaceTime" camera. So yes the T2 is capable but if you haven't attached a camera that capability isn't being used.


For the nominal Mac set up the T2 is hooked to the microphones , speaker , fans , camera , TouchID, SMC , etc. all in addition to the SSD duties it has. If apple every moves FaceID cameras to Macs the T-series SoC will process that also upstream of the rest of the system. Same thing with moving on device basic Siri processing. That too can be securely moved to the T series processor. Basic voice specific characteristics never make it off the T2 ( the Mac side is feed already recognized basic parts of speech and not the raw microphone capture). If next T series gets more Tensor cores then more "smarts' can be processed almost in an autonomic fashion just on the T series. It will be limited in scope because only mostly fixed Apple ML models will go into the relatively fixed T2 firmware. More 'smarts" can be layered on top by the host processor.


It doesn't make alot of sense to pump 3rd party camera data to the T2 (or T series ). Most macs have an Intel integrated GPU with fixed function H.265 encoder. That encoder is hooked directly to RAM. Copying it out of RAM to the T2 and back again is going to take time. For discrete GPUs the link to the embedded H.265 encoder is on a x8-x16 PCI-e v3 line. The T2 is on a x4 one. Again slower round trip time.

The T2 makes lots more sense when it is the first in line to get the camera data; not the last.


It's all very interesting. Also that FPGA based accelerator card they released, that is very interesting.

If priced reasonably perhaps. If priced so high that only very high end speiclists need it then not so much.



With it not being an ASIC they can add deep functionality over time. Heck it could even become a H.265 encoder if they wished it and they could keep upgrading its quality over time with software updates as it's not fixed function like an ASIC based card would be.

ProRes will change over time. It may mean just tracking that. Apple running Compressor data flow through it is possible. Maybe some Apple Motion. An even bigger Maybe some LogicX plug-ins.

I will be surprised though if the usages expands past Apple specific FPGA 'programs'/configs. Like a general API to the FPGA for 3rd party users. Apple is most likely going to be doing the 'programming" here and their stuff does change over time ( so don't need new card each time.). But this will be more like "firmware" upgrades that you get periodically over time. Not an "AppStore" for the Afterburner kind of thing.
 
I can just imagine how the meeting went at Apple HQ.

Tim: Come on, Jony, the pros are really angry that it's been almost 2000 days since the last Mac Pro, and they all hated the last one anyway. They just want a new Mac. Please make a new Mac tower?

Jony: I'm way too busy shaving nanometers off our laptops, and my team still hasn't found the perfect spheroid to model our Watch corners off of. Why should I care about the Mac Pro?

Tim: Well, we keep getting bad press about ignoring our pros and you know how the investors get when there's anything negative in the press about us.

Jony: Fine, I'll make a new Mac Pro. I had an idea for a pyra-

Tim: No! No no no no! Not a pyramid, Jony, the pros want a big rectangular thing, and the engineers say that's a lot easier to put components in, anyway, when everything is nice and has 90 degree angles. Remember that old Mac Pro we used to sell ten years ago? Help me out here Phil.

Phil: Uh, right. Our marketing research guys say that all the pros just want, and I quote "another cheese grater", endquote. Also something with a lot of what I'm told are called "slots".

Tim: Right, and until you design a new Mac Pro that makes our high end users happy, I'm afraid I'm going to take away your micrometer, and any machines you have in the R&D lab for making chamfered edges on things.

Jony: What! That's no fair!

Tim: Please, Jony, please. It's just embarrassing talking about nothing but emojis at WWDC. Work with us a little here. Pretend I'm Steve for a moment and have the power to curb your worst impulses.

Jony: Fine! They want a cheese grater with slots? I'll give them a cheese grater with slots. I'll give them the best bloody cheese grater they've ever seen, with twice as many slots as they've ever had before!
Jony is complacent.
 
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Doubtful apple is getting 50% off because they use "Just in Time" manufacturing contracts. They set an upper limit of the volume they want to buy at some price but then also monthly/weekly sends notices in of how much to sell.

We'll never really know. But the fact they've stayed on Intel all this time indicates they're getting some kind of upside. They've often been first to get new processors including these new Cascade Lake XEON-W's. Personally I believe they're getting some steep discounts, their JiT manufacturing doesn't change that in my opinion because Intel doesn't want Apple even considering AMD.

And Intel has been slapped around for anticompetive contracts in the past too. Intel also gives discounts to vendors for slapping the Intel Inside stick on their systems and Apple 100% passed on that too.

Slapped around is a bit of an exaggeration. Intels anti-competitive measures made them hundreds of billions of dollars.

In May 2009, the European Commissioner for Competition, Neelie Kroes, fined Intel a record $1.45 billion and ordered it to end its customer rebate program.

Then in November 2009, Intel agreed to pay AMD $1.25 billion as part of a deal to settle all outstanding legal disputes between the two companies.

So it cost them $2.7 Billion dollars. But they made hundreds of billions by strangling AMD's market access. And keep in mind the program they were told to end was rebates. That doesn't stop Intel from doing discounts at the point of sale. We already know other OEM's get discounts, not 50% sure but discounts nonetheless.

We also know that Intel wasn't always giving rebates for prior purchased chips but also spending money on advertisements for those OEM's or giving them pieces of their marketing budget to promote Intel powered systems. Just putting an Intel Inside sticker on your laptop or tower gets a big check from Intel even today. Something Apple doesn't of course but I'm sure they get perks in other ways for being Intel exclusive.

There is about zero indication I've seen that this encoding expands past the Apple camera the T2 is hooked to in most systems.

This is not true. On Macs equipped with the T2 Apple has provided a VideoToolbox framework which allows software to utilise the hardware encoding and decoding of the T2 chip for H.265 video. As described in this page on Apples website: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/videotoolbox

Appleinsider did test this here but all the T2 chip equipped Macs at the time the benchmarks were run also contained Intel's QuickSync feature which can do the same thing as the T2 with regards to encoding and decoding so the benchmarks cannot isolate only the T2's acceleration as the VideoToolkit framework utilises all the hardware decoders present when accelerating the video encoding.

This will change once people get the Mac Pro and can test the T2 seperately as those XEON's do not feature an iGPU which is where the QuickSync hardware is present.
 
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I just think it doesn't look very good. There is a lot of things they could have done to improve the outward appearance. I mean it literally looks like a cheese grater including the top handles. The old PowerMac G5 design from 2003 looks better than this.

Now I know it sounds crazy for me to say, oh Apple did this maliciously. But the fact Jony Ive's design video for it wasn't even shown at WWDC (only on YouTube after the show) like it has been shown for every other product he has ever designed for them says to me that he's not proud of this thing. He doesn't want his name attached to it. But that's just my opinion, I'm not saying I'm right.

NVIDIA's DGX-1 has a nice fabric over it to hide the enormous intake vents. Looks really nice. Some fabric covering over this similar to the home pod would have really classed it up in my opinion.

Here is a photo of the DGX-1 in its tower and rackable cases:

iDzo8a0.jpg


I've studied and taught design both acedemically and in industry for over 30 years. I know a subjective hot take from a well structured critique. ‘Fabric vent covers are nice’ is the former not the later. FWIW I think the product in shot above (which I haven't seen IRL or elsewhere) looks cheap as, and will probably fill with dust in no time and require clothe to be washed periodically. And that colour choice would have been great in the early eighties when mainframes were often that colour!

I don't care if you think it literally looks like a cheese grate (at different scale) including the space frame (which cheese graters do not have incidentally). Claes Oldenburg literally spent his entire career making sculptures that were over-scaled representations of literal household objects to great effect. And Frank Gerry, a fan, literally asked Oldenburg to contributes sculptures in the build fabric of literally his own building designs (Law School binoculars, another early design with a used tea bag hanging off a building).

1200px-052607-006-Chiat-Day.jpg

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If apple had made this in mat black, no one would think it looked like a cheese grater. apple just couldn't be arsed to add that final step in design. IKEA handles and legs .. hmmm Johnny must have been spending a lot of time in IKEA!
Maybe a space grey coloured anodised aluminium and powder-coated stainless steel will available on the first speed-bump update to the Mac Pro lineup? You could write to Sir Jonny and ask nicely!
 
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Doubtful apple is getting 50%

We'll never really know.

'We' who don't look at finances perhaps.

Intel's corporate Margins
Operating margins: 32.39%
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INTC/key-statistics?p=INTC&.tsrc=fin-srch

Intel's gross Margins
Q1 2019 ~57%
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1427...2019-results-revenue-flat-pcs-up-servers-down

How likely are handing out 50% discounts when the overall realized margin is 32% ? Not very likely. Throw Apple wanting flex, JIT quantities and even less.

Apple is a big customer so they get discounts, but Intel isn't handing over chips basically at cost. No way.



But the fact they've stayed on Intel all this time indicates they're getting some kind of upside.

From 2007-2016 AMD CPUs were in a bigger SNAFU pit than Intel is in now. AMD was a viable option if they managed to stop shooting themselves in the head and got their stuff together. But when they only had their own fabs (before Global Foundary spin out) that was a 'no go' too. At least for Apple.

Intel has pragmatically been the only option until relatively recently. AMD still isn't a creditable option in the lower end of the mobile space.


They've often been first to get new processors including these new Cascade Lake XEON-W's.

First how. First dog and pony show... sure. But Apple isn't shipping anything until "Fall". 'Fall' runs until after mid December. ( October is pretty likely , probably not before 10.15 ships ) Haven't seen what other folks will have in October yet.

Apple has often been late too. The Mini has Core 8th generations in it when 'new". the Mac Pro 2013 rolled out after most other vendors have E5 v2 shipping ( in part because weren't coupled to Thunderbolt 2 controllers which wouldn't go to volume until 2014. )


Personally I believe they're getting some steep discounts, their JiT manufacturing doesn't change that in my opinion because Intel doesn't want Apple even considering AMD.

Fundamental fact is that these "steep" discounts do not show up in the BTO system pricing. 'Steep' is relative and doesn't have to run anywhere near 50%.

Something Apple doesn't of course but I'm sure they get perks in other ways for being Intel exclusive.

What would have been the "big perk" of saddling Macs with AMD bulldozer implementations??????




This is not true. On Macs equipped with the T2 Apple has provided a VideoToolbox framework which allows software to utilise the hardware encoding and decoding of the T2 chip for H.265 video. As described in this page on Apples website: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/videotoolbox

Appleinsider did test this here but all the T2 chip equipped Macs at the time the benchmarks were run also contained Intel's QuickSync feature which can do the same thing as the T2 with regards to encoding and decoding so the benchmarks cannot isolate only the T2's acceleration as the VideoToolkit framework utilises all the hardware decoders present when accelerating the video encoding.

I hadn't seen the Appleinsider. test. So it appears to get into the mix in the right contexts. Parts

".... upped the bitrate to 18,000 kilobits per second. .. Bitrate and similar basic settings can be changed, but stray too far from this, and your encode may fail. At least it will fail early ..."

18Mbit/s for 4K? That's seems a bit odd but if the objective is to push a corner case to make the toolkit to pick the T2 as a option then fine. And it falls over if blow on it too hard. This isn't "bonus perk" time in a high end pro context. I'd put it more in the cute hack context. If there was a choice of a trade off of a more stable bridgeOS interface between T2 and host system and this hack working .... the former is what they should be spending their time on.

Hooking the T2 into the low level "smarts' of Macs makes more sense.


This will change once people get the Mac Pro and can test the T2 separately as those XEON's do not feature an iGPU which is where the QuickSync hardware is present.

Would be lame is if Apple discrete GPU decoders online. The Mac Pro with $1K GPUs shouldn't have to depend upon the T2 for a video coding. ( it is there since they repurposed and slightly chopped down an iPhone SoC to put it there. )
And from a security standpoint this is kind of dubious.
 
'We' who don't look at finances perhaps.

Intel's corporate Margins
Operating margins: 32.39%
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/INTC/key-statistics?p=INTC&.tsrc=fin-srch

Intel's gross Margins
Q1 2019 ~57%
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1427...2019-results-revenue-flat-pcs-up-servers-down

How likely are handing out 50% discounts when the overall realized margin is 32% ? Not very likely. Throw Apple wanting flex, JIT quantities and even less.

This is averaged so it's meaningless in this context. Not everything they sell will have those kinds of margins including what they sell to specific companies. They still give steep discounts, I used to work on the engineering team for a big NAS company (number one in our space by units sold) and we saw very steep discounts from Intel on chipsets and CPU's (we used Atom's, Core i3's and XEON E3's) in exchange for being exclusively Intel on our x86 hardware and only using ARM on our low-end models (2-4 bays max, very low BOM etc).

This is why I think 50% is not out of the question, we were getting close to that kind of discount and we were much smaller than Apple.

Apple is a big customer so they get discounts, but Intel isn't handing over chips basically at cost. No way.


From 2007-2016 AMD CPUs were in a bigger SNAFU pit than Intel is in now. AMD was a viable option if they managed to stop shooting themselves in the head and got their stuff together. But when they only had their own fabs (before Global Foundary spin out) that was a 'no go' too. At least for Apple.

This isn't really accurate. They had some good chips along the way. There was even a strong rumour with industry sources that a MacBook or MacBook Air was going to use a low-powered AMD chip during a time when Intel could not produce the chip adaquete for such a Mac in high enough volume due to troubles with their lithography process. This is a few years ago.

As for today, the Threadripper chips offer higher core counts than Intel while being substantially lower cost. (32 Cores at $2,000 vs the $7,500 for the 28 Core XEON) and this has been available for a year already and Apple is definitely privy to the fact Threadripper 3 due out in only a few months time will be going to 48-64 cores in the same CPU socket.

Something keeps Apple on Intel and I'm thinking: money.

First how. First dog and pony show... sure. But Apple isn't shipping anything until "Fall". 'Fall' runs until after mid December. ( October is pretty likely , probably not before 10.15 ships ) Haven't seen what other folks will have in October yet.

This is just one example. The 8 core CPU (highest end SKU only) in the MacBook Pro 15" 2019 is still not available in any PC laptops but you can walk into an Apple Store and get it today. This has happened frequently over the past 10 years.

For Intel, Apple is an important brand ambassador and they do receive preferential treatment. You can also look at the MacBook Air in the old days when Intel made a new package that was significantly smaller in size specifically for Apples usage, the CEO of Intel at the time even stated so.

Keep in mind Intel was also providing Apple with their only viable competition to Qualcomm in iPhone modems until recently and there was plenty of rumours that Intel was selling them to Apple at cost just to get into the iPhone. Ultimately that deal ended when Intels 5G modems were not going to be released fast enough for Apples future iPhone models and they went back to Qualcomm.

Apple has often been late too. The Mini has Core 8th generations in it when 'new". the Mac Pro 2013 rolled out after most other vendors have E5 v2 shipping ( in part because weren't coupled to Thunderbolt 2 controllers which wouldn't go to volume until 2014. )

This is a bad argument. You cannot say they do not receive chips sooner than other companies because in some instances they released parts slower than everyone else. You have to look at the times they had the chips in shipping computers weeks/months in advance than the entire computing industry, like the case with the current MacBook Pro 15" and its highest spec 8 Core CPU.

Also in the old Mac Pro (cheese grater) they had custom XEON's from Intel which didn't have IHS's (Integrated Heat Spreaders) so that Apple could directly cool the CPU die. Intel never sold these in retail or to other OEM's (whether they wanted them or not is another question entirely). Just goes to show Intels special relationship with Apple.


Fundamental fact is that these "steep" discounts do not show up in the BTO system pricing. 'Steep' is relative and doesn't have to run anywhere near 50%.

At my old work we had a few models with different CPU options (mostly on the high end) and we never passed those savings we got from Intel onto our customers either, Intel explicitly would not allow us to undermine their MSRP's by doing that.

What would have been the "big perk" of saddling Macs with AMD bulldozer implementations??????

There has been plenty of underpowered CPU's in Macs for a long time and it's not only about CPU performance. AMD has often had better integrated graphics than Intel over the past 4 years on their APU's. Chips appropriate to replace the CPU's used in the MacBook Air, Mac Mini etc

Anyway this has been an interesting conversation, I think we could go back and forth a lot but for a lot of what we're discussing (like pricing) we don't have the numbers, everything is an educated guess, probably best to just leave it there.
 
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