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When will there be an arm mac that exceeds a 2019 mac pro in performance?

  • 2 Years

    Votes: 102 64.6%
  • 4 Years

    Votes: 31 19.6%
  • 6 Years

    Votes: 6 3.8%
  • 6 Months

    Votes: 11 7.0%
  • 8 Years

    Votes: 8 5.1%

  • Total voters
    158

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
If I had to take a crack at it, I'd guess we're going to see no less than two, but no more than four chip lines.
Line 1: "Consumer"
iGPU, fewer cores, smaller amounts of cache and gpu cores. Less die space allocated to other ASICs like the Neural Engine. Probably show up in the MBA, 14" MBP, 24" iMac, and Mac Mini.

Line 2: "Pro"
No GPU or beefed up GPU (depending on the dedicated GPU situation I'm leaning toward dedicated GPU though), more cores, larger amounts of everything. For the 16" MBP, 27" iMac, and Mac Pro (I don't think the iMac Pro will live to see Apple Silicon)

The Neural unit very probably won't be optional on any system that Apple is going to want to add Face ID to. ( laptops plus probably all iMacs. ) [ Wouldn't be surprising if Apple added TouchID power button to the "headless models" too so... pretty Nueral for all is a good chance. Same way T2 in systems that don't have touchbar. Just easier to incur the cost over the whole Mac product line. ]

GPUs probably at present in all. The requirement to urn unmodified iPhone apps probably going to push at least a "good" (not necessarily best) iPhone GPU into the higher end desktop units also. Not necessarily trying to displace a more hefty discrete GPU for Mac targeted software, but something to fall back the 'clueless not running in iOS' apps to. ( variation on the trick the touchbar uses and just copy the framebuffer of of the apple GPU onto whatever window frame the users is using if engaged a dGPU to drive monitor).

An Apple GPU every SoC package means that even if pull all the discrete GPUs from a Mac Pro could still drive the TBv2 ports. ( similar to the current 256GB entry SSD, just has to be big enough to get the basics done on a entry , 'stripped down' model. )


The Mini's problem is that it doesn't have enough GPU . It doesn't need "smaller" it needs bigger to better hold more ground.


Line4: "Pro+"
Mac Pro/top iMac only. Ridiculous amounts of cores, cache, ASICs for the Neural Engine (I'm thinking the Neural Engine is Apple's big "pro line" strategy)

Apple's Neural Engine is likely going to be anchored on Apple "AI" tasks far more so than broad general market , leading edge performance metrics. They'll let other apps using it so their apps can do smart inference but it is probably not going to be a marketed at hard core AI/ML computational needs.

Frankly, I don't see Apple discontinuing the Mac Pro. But if they don't they're going to need CPUs capable of high core counts (at least 28/56) and able to address at least 1.5TB of RAM to keep parity with the current top of the line Mac Pro. And I doubt that they're gonna put chips like this into say, the Macbook Air or even the lower end "Pro" machines.

The bigger gap is going to be in I/O bandwidth ( and bisection internal bandwidth). Both memory and PCI-e I/O. There is a decent possibly they will abandoned the 1.5TB RAM capacity level. Also doubtful they will try to drive anywhere near the 64 core cap that macOS lays on them that they probably aren't going to cross for the foressable future. Would be surprising if they did anything over 32 cores. Matching the 28 core count limit probably will be "good enough" on performance cores. Apple will get a 'win' because the 2022 tech being used if better than the pragmatically 2017 tech being used in the Mac Pro. They are probably not going to get entangled in the core count wars of 2022 at the high end workstation level.
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...

I notice Kuo is sticking to his 13" MBP will be first guns but assures us there will be a 14" model. this to me makes little sense.
....

13" Retina MBP AS $1,299
14" Micro-LED MBP AS $1,899

That $600 gap means can have two products that don't pragmatically overlap. Apple sold non Retina along side Retina MBP versions at some point of the same screen dimensions. They also sold matte vs gloss MBP 15" versions along side each other in the past too.

Different tech in screen at the same size still can be differentiated.

The other question is whether Apple is going to consolidate their two "two port" options. MBP 13" two port and MBA into one . Maybe bring back some other lower cost option as "Macbook". Again the 14" could be the four port model.

Depending upon where Apple SoC is at with being able to deal with discrete Thunderbolt Controllers a MBP 13" with just one TBv4 controller (2 ports ) and a current Retina screen would be a substantively lower 'new, volatile tech' hurdle for Apple to leap over for a first product.


Pretty good chance that Apple is in way their head in trying to revamp the whole line up at the same time. Add a limited number of new things at the same time and iterate or the whole line up over 2 years. Otherwise they likely will likely have a "butterfly keyboard" like hole in the ground.
Neither industrial design or The silicon team have shown real capacity to work on large number of products in parallel. ( in part Apple didn't do all of the "Big Bang" of 2006 on their own either without shoveling board work out to Intel for the Mac Pro. When pull it all inside there isn't going to be a fall back external vendor to kick it too. )
 
Last edited:

JMacHack

Suspended
Mar 16, 2017
1,965
2,424
The Neural unit very probably won't be optional on any system that Apple is going to want to add Face ID to. ( laptops plus probably all iMacs. ) [ Wouldn't be surprising if Apple added TouchID power button to the "headless models" too so... pretty Nueral for all is a good chance. Same way T2 in systems that don't have touchbar. Just easier to incur the cost over the whole Mac product line. ]

GPUs probably at present in all. The requirement to urn unmodified iPhone apps probably going to push at least a "good" (not necessarily best) iPhone GPU into the higher end desktop units also. Not necessarily trying to displace a more hefty discrete GPU for Mac targeted software, but something to fall back the 'clueless not running in iOS' apps to. ( variation on the trick the touchbar uses and just copy the framebuffer of of the apple GPU onto whatever window frame the users is using if engaged a dGPU to drive monitor).

An Apple GPU every SoC package means that even if pull all the discrete GPUs from a Mac Pro could still drive the TBv2 ports. ( similar to the current 256GB entry SSD, just has to be big enough to get the basics done on a entry , 'stripped down' model. )
That's a good point. Previous iterations of MBPs have had an iGPU as well as a dGPU (I think the current ones do as well?)

Apple's Neural Engine is likely going to be anchored on Apple "AI" tasks far more so than broad general market , leading edge performance metrics. They'll let other apps using it so their apps can do smart inference but it is probably not going to be a marketed at hard core AI/ML computational needs.
Maybe not hardcore, but there would be benefits to having more Neural cores even for the Apple "AI" tasks. But that's a fair point.

The bigger gap is going to be in I/O bandwidth ( and bisection internal bandwidth). Both memory and PCI-e I/O. There is a decent possibly they will abandoned the 1.5TB RAM capacity level. Also doubtful they will try to drive anywhere near the 64 core cap that macOS lays on them that they probably aren't going to cross for the foressable future. Would be surprising if they did anything over 32 cores. Matching the 28 core count limit probably will be "good enough" on performance cores. Apple will get a 'win' because the 2022 tech being used if better than the pragmatically 2017 tech being used in the Mac Pro. They are probably not going to get entangled in the core count wars of 2022 at the high end workstation level.
This is probably going to be a "wait and see" situation. By 2022 TSMC should have more advanced nodes that would theoretically allow higher core counts without having a gargantuan die size.

Just by Intel's delays, I'd say AMD has already won the core count war. There's no way Intel can increase the amount of cores on their high performance chips with 14nm. At least, not without a large increase in die size. I do have to wonder when we'll see core counts plateau though. (I thought MacOS had a limit of 128 threads though?) 16 threads is overkill for consumer workloads (at the moment) and I've only seen a handful of workloads that benefit from the ludicrous core counts that Threadripper/Epyc provide.

I'm not super knowledgeable on many technical details, but it's hard to imagine Apple releasing a product that doesn't exceed the older gen of it. I'm basically going off of that.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
13" Retina MBP AS $1,299
14" Micro-LED MBP AS $1,899

That $600 gap means can have two products that don't pragmatically overlap. Apple sold non Retina along side Retina MBP versions at some point of the same screen dimensions. They also sold matte vs gloss MBP 15" versions along side each other in the past too.

Different tech in screen at the same size still can be differentiated.


I maybe didn't make my points very well as this seems to be an answer to something else.

I was saying two things at once:
Firstly that if there is going to be an imminent 14" MBP and an imminent AS MBP, it makes more sense to me to make those the same machine. It seems to be the prediction that the next iMac is an Intel one with no redesign. Releasing an AS MBP with no redesign when you have a redesign in the almost ready seems like a good way to piss off anyone who buys the first gen AS MBP. I'd expect Apple to have the patience to wait, especially since the 13" MBP isn't that old.

My second point was that people like Kuo make their predictions from parts orders from external suppliers and being a financial analyst and not an engineer, he likely doesn't know the difference between a 13" panel for a MBA and one for a MBP. (Assuming they are even using different parts) So he has to make certain assumptions of guesses when it comes to the exact model. That would mean its equally likely the first AS Mac could be an Air rather than a Pro.

Combine those two points and you get an AS 13" MBA (Maybe in the old 12" MacBook size case) and then a 14" MBP a bit later on, maybe with a new 16" one at the same time since a new AS 14" MBP would seriously dent sales of the Intel 16" that it would likely be much faster than.
 

sputnikBA

macrumors 6502
Jan 2, 2018
301
402
If they say their transition period is going to be 2 years -- then 2 years is when they'll need to have it read by to replace the existing one. The thing is though, you'll end up waiting 4 years anyway because it probably the second generation will be the one you should actually buy.
 
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