Poll: Would You Appeal an Gamer Mac based on nMP?

[jblagden]

In near future not only cpu will be soldered, also pcie expansion will be an luxury option and surpassed by Thunderbolt, we will see pc with only Thunderbolt 3 and usb-c/display port 1.2 connectors also for power/charge.

Maybe the PCIE video card would last a bit more will be the last pcie peripheral offered on the market eventually doomed to be ruled by usb-c/Thunderbolt 3 and mostly non-upgradeable Barebones.

Just like the car market, notwithstanding how eye poping is tuning cars, every year is more complicated and more and more exclusive, people now is not usual upgrading they car's, also the stereo which was the most popular upgrade is now doomed and every year more complicated or inconvenient or just impossible.

So when people think on upgrade an car is unlikely to think on a more powerful engine or stereo, most people think on sell and buy a new one.

The computer consumer market is walking the same road but much faster.

The problem with Thunderbolt is that it’s only 20 gigabits. Even Thunderbolt 3 is only 40 gigabits. As long as you’re using an external connector, the connection just won’t be fast enough. I have a Thunderbolt eGPU, and it’s nice. But it requires a significant amount of compression for Thunderbolt to be sufficient. There’s never going to be an external interface which will be as fast as an internal one.

Though, it makes me wonder if Apple wants people to make Hackintoshes, especially considering that they made it easier to make them shortly after making the new Mac Pro.

 

[koyoot]

Nobody says that there will not be faster external connection in future.

You HAVE to have it if you will want high resolution VR displays in your hardware.

 

[Mago]

The problem with Thunderbolt is that it’s only 20 gigabits. Even Thunderbolt 3 is only 40 gigabits. As long as you’re using an external connector, the connection just won’t be fast enough. I have a Thunderbolt eGPU, and it’s nice. But it requires a significant amount of compression for Thunderbolt to be sufficient. There’s never going to be an external interface which will be as fast as an internal one.

Though, it makes me wonder if Apple wants people to make Hackintoshes, especially considering that they made it easier to make them shortly after making the new Mac Pro.

Did you look at the CES Thunderbolt 3 cages hosting gpu for the new laptops from razor and asus w/o discrete gpu?

This is the kind of future we face the discrete gpu on laptops will be an option on workstation/pro market not for consumer.

Also we will see tb3 dock with GPU and display with integrated gpu.

The issue with the bandwidth charges the textures but s far enough for the other rendering data, further allows faster refresh rate on dedicated display with GPU on board impossible using dp 1.3.

As I being said the near future is plagued of barebones with high performance non-upgradeable gpu and low performance device using external gpu when required.

 

[jblagden]

Nobody says that there will not be faster external connection in future.

You HAVE to have it if you will want high resolution VR displays in your hardware.

True, but it’s highly unlikely it’ll ever happen.

 

[koyoot]

True, but it’s highly unlikely it’ll ever happen.

Tell that to... everyone who works on it, already .

 

[Mago]

Nobody says that there will not be faster external connection in future.

You HAVE to have it if you will want high resolution VR displays in your hardware.

VR display will soon move to UWB wireless (60gbps per channel at short rsngrdt).

I don't think we will see something more faster than Tb4 (80 gbps dual channel on usb-c) on long time and dp 1.3 may become Vaporware.

 

[jblagden]

Did you look at the CES Thunderbolt 3 cages hosting gpu for the new laptops from razor and asus w/o discrete gpu?

This is the kind of future we face the discrete gpu on laptops will be an option on workstation/pro market not for consumer.

Also we will see tb3 dock with GPU and display with integrated gpu.

The issue with the bandwidth charges the textures but s far enough for the other rendering data, further allows faster refresh rate on dedicated display with GPU on board impossible using dp 1.3.

As I being said the near future is plagued of barebones with high performance non-upgradeable gpu and low performance device using external gpu when required.

1. Yeah, I saw them. It’s interesting that they’ve waited until Thunderbolt 3. Well, it’ll still need compression, though it’ll only need half as much as Thunderbolt 1 and 2. It’s actually a little funny that the only difference between Thunderbolt 1 and 2 is that one can only use each channel in different directions while the second can use both channels in the same direction. It looks like some of those enclosures use two Thunderbolt cables to connect to a laptop, which is pretty good since that would give it half the bandwidth of a x16 PCIe slot.

2. I’m afraid you might be right about that.

3. Okay.

4. Okay.

5. I think I’d actually prefer to have a MXM module than an eGPU. At least I’d be able to take it with me and I’d have more bandwidth.

 

[tuxon86]

Was that sexist? I am sorry for not taking responsibility of peoples interpretations of words...

One last thing I will ad in the topic of workstation - next gaming. Internal roadmap of AMD shows only Opterons, FirePro cards and APUs. ONLY.

The roadmap may change but at this stage chances for it equals 1%. Intel has similar roadmaps. If you will want to build custom PC, not be forced to buy NUC or All-in-One computer or laptop, or trashcan-like computer like Mac Pro you will have to buy workstation parts. That is OEMs way of dealing with declining desktop market. Welcome to Internet of Things era. That is what I meant there. In other words, in future 95% of the computer market will be BGA-type. Whether you like it or not.

The vast majority of gamers are on Intel now. You have to keep yourself up to date...

 

[koyoot]

The vast majority of gamers are on Intel now. You have to keep yourself up to date...

Is Intel not in the market of computing? One last bit, ask yourself, how do proportions of BGA/LGA sockets look like today. On the whole market. And how are they changing.

P.S. I know that no-one will believe in this, but I will write it anyway. It is Intel that is pushing marketing on that market, and shifting it. Apple is only one part of this. They demand from Intel, but Intel also demands from them. A lot.

As I being said the near future is plagued of barebones with high performance non-upgradeable gpu and low performance device using external gpu when required.

I will differ on low performance .
We are talking about future that have "usable" performance, not unusable . CannonLake Intel CPUs will have 4-6 and 8 core versions as a mainstream. What is after that, only Intel knows... .

 

[jblagden]

The vast majority of gamers are on Intel now. You have to keep yourself up to date...

This is true. And folks only use AMD CPUs because they cost less. But AMD’s CPUs and GPUs are terrible for laptops since they have the annoying issue of overheating, which is why I was shocked and dismayed when Apple started putting AMD GPUs in the iMac and the 15” Retina MacBook Pro.

 

[Mago]

5. I think I’d actually prefer to have a MXM module than an eGPU. At least I’d be able to take it with me and I’d have more bandwidth.

I loved the Mac Pro look alike trash can from MSI too, just crazy expensive, I think we could see soon gpu upgrades on the nMP, right now if you have an D300 nMP you can swap this for D700s if yo find it, the problem is to encourage Apple and AMD to sell those upgrades.

 

[jblagden]

Tell that to... everyone who works on it, already .

I have a Thunderbolt eGPU. It’s pretty good. I just wish it didn’t have to use so much processor power for compressing data over the Thunderbolt cable. I wish Thunderbolt was equivalent to a x16 PCIe slot without needing compression. That would be great. I’m not saying I don’t want an enternal interface which is equal to a x16 PCIe slot. I’m just saying it’s extremely unlikely that it’ll happen.

Admittedly, it looks like Dell has a proprietary external PCIe interface which is either equal to a x16 PCIe slot, or pretty close to it.
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I loved the Mac Pro look alike trash can from MSI too, just crazy expensive, I think we could see soon gpu upgrades on the nMP, right now if you have an D300 nMP you can swap this for D700s if yo find it, the problem is to encourage Apple and AMD to sell those upgrades.

Yeah. And also to have a Configure-to-Order option for a different graphics card. Not everyone wants a FirePro card. Some of us want to have a legitimate Mac for gaming which can actually be upgraded (or parts can be replaced).

 

[Daisy81]

Now, while I disagree with what koyoot’s been saying about workstations becoming the new gaming machines and NUCs becoming the norm for most folks, that wasn’t exactly a sexist comment. The only way it was sexist is that it uses gender-specific pronouns.

It was in poor taste at best. All the more reason why I have ignored him. No class and no knowledge of the subject.

Yeah, that would be a better alternative. Of course, it would also be nice if Intel didn’t have the CPUs soldered in. Then I’d be more willing to go the mobile route for gaming since it would actually be possible to upgrade a part or replace a fried part. The iMac and 15” MacBook Pro should also have have MXM modules. I just don’t know where you’d buy MXM upgrades. Who sells them?

It isn't intel soldering the CPU to the boards. That is Apple. It is possible for the mobile parts to use sockets and be upgradeable. That would actually be super awesome.

For a gaming machine two MXM cards with sufficient cooling would work and keep the size down.

I would be very happy with such a machine especially if I can get in there and swap parts out.

 

[Mago]

It was in poor taste at best. All the more reason why I have ignored him. No class and no knowledge of the subject.



It isn't intel soldering the CPU to the boards. That is Apple. It is possible for the mobile parts to use sockets and be upgradeable. That would actually be super awesome.

For a gaming machine two MXM cards with sufficient cooling would work and keep the size down.

I would be very happy with such a machine especially if I can get in there and swap parts out.

Actually Apple maybe the first to sell soldered cpu (I'm not sure, I think actually was an UMPC from Samsung ), but this was the eggs, before the egg was the Hen, Intel is the hen which released the BGA socket

 

[Daisy81]

In near future not only cpu will be soldered, also pcie expansion will be an luxury option and surpassed by Thunderbolt, we will see pc with only Thunderbolt 3 and usb-c/display port 1.2 connectors also for power/charge.

Maybe the PCIE video card would last a bit more will be the last pcie peripheral offered on the market eventually doomed to be ruled by usb-c/Thunderbolt 3 and mostly non-upgradeable Barebones.

Just like the car market, notwithstanding how eye poping is tuning cars, every year is more complicated and more and more exclusive, people now is not usual upgrading they car's, also the stereo which was the most popular upgrade is now doomed and every year more complicated or inconvenient or just impossible.

So when people think on upgrade an car is unlikely to think on a more powerful engine or stereo, most people think on sell and buy a new one.

The computer consumer market is walking the same road but much faster.

I don't believe that this is going to happen.

No more then eSATA, Firewire, Thunderbolt1 and 2 have caused interal based machines to change.

Apple won't do it because it is messy. Gaming computers won't do it because there is latency. Workstations might but it would have to be cost effective and really it isn't.

This is more like a fad to be able to expand over priced machines to be able to do what they can't do for more then it would cost to buy an xbox or build a budget gaming machine.
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Actually Apple maybe the first to sell soldered cpu (I'm not sure, I think actually was an UMPC from Samsung ), but this was the eggs, before the egg was the Hen, Intel is the hen which released the BGA socket

Right around 2011 Apple wasn't the only one. I had a Samsung laptop that was soldered for the CPU and graphics chip. Having laptops not soldered is actually rare.

 

[Mago]

No more then eSATA, Firewire, Thunderbolt1 and 2 have caused interal based machines to change.

Ahh I forgot Sata Express also have its USB-C "alt mode", so you can see now where the ducks are flying when the winter is coming.

 

[Daisy81]

Ahh I forgot Sata Express also have its USB-C "alt mode", so you can see now where the ducks are flying when the winter is coming.

I don't understand why you guys are so fixated on external expansion. It will never be as fast as internal. You'll also now have to contend with cables.

It's not going to happen and if it does the market is doomed. If this is the direction Apple is going then they will be out of business in less then ten years.

External graphics for laptops is a nice feature. External graphics for a desktop is stupid.

 

[Mago]

I don't understand why you guys are so fixated on external expansion. It will never be as fast as internal. You'll also now have to contend with cables.

Are not us, is the industry conspiracy.

It's not going to happen and if it does the market is doomed. If this is the direction Apple is going then they will be out of business in less then ten years.

I don't think so, Apple was niche sector and will be niche sector no matter how popular is the iPhone or how much grews the Macintosh market share.

External graphics for laptops is a nice feature. External graphics for a desktop is stupid.

You are right all the way on this statement, but sadly your desktop will see soldered gpu as much on the foreseen future unless you have the pockets to purchase an expandable pc (an rare unicorn in the next 3-5 years).

 

[jblagden]

It was in poor taste at best. All the more reason why I have ignored him. No class and no knowledge of the subject.



It isn't intel soldering the CPU to the boards. That is Apple. It is possible for the mobile parts to use sockets and be upgradeable. That would actually be super awesome.

For a gaming machine two MXM cards with sufficient cooling would work and keep the size down.

I would be very happy with such a machine especially if I can get in there and swap parts out.

I looked into this months ago and found out that as of the last few years, all of Intel’s mobile processors are soldered in, regardless of who made the motherboard.

 

[Daisy81]

ou are right all the way on this statement, but sadly your desktop will see soldered gpu as much on the foreseen future unless you have the pockets to purchase an expandable pc (an rare unicorn in the next 3-5 years).

It doesn't cost much to build your own.

In fact if other companies won't fill that demand then I will.

 

[Mago]

In fact if other companies won't fill that demand then I will.

We may not agree on many things but definitely I love that statement. I'm the kind of person that when can't find something then build that from the scratch if necessary.

 

[jblagden]

It doesn't cost much to build your own.

In fact if other companies won't fill that demand then I will.

Yeah, I know. I just don’t want to have to run Windows for gaming, though I realize some Mac users have Windows PCs for gaming and Macs for everything else. And I don’t know if I’d really want to build a Hackintosh due to issues of legality, ethics, and stability.
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It doesn't cost much to build your own.

In fact if other companies won't fill that demand then I will.

Windows PC or Hackintosh?

 

[koyoot]

Are not us, is the industry conspiracy.



I don't think so, Apple was niche sector and will be niche sector no matter how popular is the iPhone or how much grews the Macintosh market share.



You are right all the way on this statement, but sadly your desktop will see soldered gpu as much on the foreseen future unless you have the pockets to purchase an expandable pc (an rare unicorn in the next 3-5 years).

No. Again, what I said is this: You will be able to build custom PC. Just branded as a FirePro, Xeon, Opteron, Quadro. That is all.

 

[jblagden]

No. Again, what I said is this: You will be able to build custom PC. Just branded as a FirePro, Xeon, Opteron, Quadro. That is all.

You’ve been saying that for a while. I really don’t think that’s going to happen. That would probably cause a huge downturn in sales of PC parts. Companies make too much money from this stuff to just stop making it.

 

[koyoot]

You’ve been saying that for a while. I really don’t think that’s going to happen. That would probably cause a huge downturn in sales of PC parts. Companies make too much money from this stuff to just stop making it.

Do you see that desktop sales shipments year over year are declining? And the trend is not going to change? What happens when with every node, the manufacturing costs are going up, and the whole market of desktop parts is declining? Prices go up. How they can mitigate this? I cannot give you absolutely any specifics at this point, but the reality is: most of the revenue for companies will come from soldered chips. Because they will be able to sell you whole ecosystem. That is the idea. The higher prices are, the better for the companies. It is simple as it can be.

No matter you can argue with that, desktop market is declining. There is number of reasons for that: the boarder of performance between desktop and mobile have disappeared, secondly, the filespan of computers today is much wider than it was few years ago, thirdly, you do not need one device for all of your digital life: Gaming - console, browsing the web - tablet, connecting with people - smartphone.

And it will grow and grow. Lets face it. Desktop in current form is dead, unless... customers will start to buy the PCs in avalanche-like way.

You must understand the market and digital era from every point of view, and context to see where we are heading.