Poll: Would You Appeal an Gamer Mac based on nMP?

[MacVidCards]

No. Again, what I said is this: You will be able to build custom PC. Just branded as a FirePro, Xeon, Opteron, Quadro. That is all.

I doubt this very much.

You are of course entitled to have your opinion, but that is al it is. You haven't produced a shred of evidence other than vague "I know important stuff but can't say because of NDA"

That isn't evidence of anything. I could say the same thing, wouldn't make what I typed any more correct.

I do like that new word you created, "filespan". Going to try to work it in to conversation today.

 

[koyoot]

I doubt this very much.

You are of course entitled to have your opinion, but that is al it is. You haven't produced a shred of evidence other than vague "I know important stuff but can't say because of NDA"

That isn't evidence of anything. I could say the same thing, wouldn't make what I typed any more correct.

I do absolutely understand this, and I am not blaming anyone if do not believes me. All we can talk about is really the overall look on the computing market as a whole, how it is changing. By how it is changing I mean: look from where money comes and where it goes. That will mostly help understand where we are heading.

VR, Internet-of-Things, gaming, content consumption, connecting with people, social media, etc.

Desktop is becoming less meaningful with every year.

The only places where it is unquestionably meaningful is content creation and workstation markets.

 

[Mago]

Do you see that desktop sales shipments year over year are declining? And the trend is not going to change? What happens when with every node, the manufacturing costs are going up, and the whole market of desktop parts is declining? Prices go up. How they can mitigate this? I cannot give you absolutely any specifics at this point, but the reality is: most of the revenue for companies will come from soldered chips. Because they will be able to sell you whole ecosystem. That is the idea. The higher prices are, the better for the companies. It is simple as it can be.

No matter you can argue with that, desktop market is declining. There is number of reasons for that: the boarder of performance between desktop and mobile have disappeared, secondly, the filespan of computers today is much wider than it was few years ago, thirdly, you do not need one device for all of your digital life: Gaming - console, browsing the web - tablet, connecting with people - smartphone.

And it will grow and grow. Lets face it. Desktop in current form is dead, unless... customers will start to buy the PCs in avalanche-like way.

You must understand the market and digital era from every point of view, and context to see where we are heading.

Most of the manufacturer relies their hopes on the multimedia/VR/gaming emerging markets more than the traditional SOHO/pro market, which is one of the reasons why this poll.

 

[jblagden]

Do you see that desktop sales shipments year over year are declining? And the trend is not going to change? What happens when with every node, the manufacturing costs are going up, and the whole market of desktop parts is declining? Prices go up. How they can mitigate this? I cannot give you absolutely any specifics at this point, but the reality is: most of the revenue for companies will come from soldered chips. Because they will be able to sell you whole ecosystem. That is the idea. The higher prices are, the better for the companies. It is simple as it can be.

No matter you can argue with that, desktop market is declining. There is number of reasons for that: the boarder of performance between desktop and mobile have disappeared, secondly, the filespan of computers today is much wider than it was few years ago, thirdly, you do not need one device for all of your digital life: Gaming - console, browsing the web - tablet, connecting with people - smartphone.

And it will grow and grow. Lets face it. Desktop in current form is dead, unless... customers will start to buy the PCs in avalanche-like way.

You must understand the market and digital era from every point of view, and context to see where we are heading.

Considering the state of the economy, I wouldn’t jump the gun saying that the trend will be NUCs just because desktop shipments are down. Wait until the economy improves and stabilizes before making that statement.

 

[koyoot]

Most of the manufacturer relies their hopes on the multimedia/VR/gaming emerging markets more than the traditional SOHO/pro market, which is one of the reasons why this poll.

NUC's are for the emerging markets... they are considered desktop replacements, however it is more for future, not exactly today. Imagine a situation where NUC with 25W quad core CPU from Intel is able to deliver performance that is capable of handling 99% of games on 1080p in at least medium settings. And they will cost less than new smartphone.

Considering the state of the economy, I wouldn’t jump the gun saying that the trend will be NUCs just because desktop shipments are down. Wait until the economy improves and stabilizes before making that statement.

Declining market is not exactly due to economy. If it would be true smartphone revenue would drop every year, and is not. And are high end smartphones cheap? The revenue from high-end smartphones is growing. They are in the price ranges of quite nice PC. And are way more often bought than PC's.

That is analogy. But you can see what I am talking about.

 

[Mago]

Considering the state of the economy, I wouldn’t jump the gun saying that the trend will be NUCs just because desktop shipments are down. Wait until the economy improves and stabilizes before making that statement.

This trend has little to do with the current economy, is more tied to Intel development delay and the whole evolution of the market, as was stated before, PC now service longer, I just come from an tiny store they still are using an old acer pc running win xp for all their duties (accounting, billing, word processing), scared? Why their office and other apps still up, that's an undeniably truth, very few innovations are moving users to update their pc unless they are on fields related to the emerging cultural trends as 4K video, VR, all other things don't need an 8 core i7 or an Radeon Fury X2 or a Titan gpu.
. People are more concerned to buy an 3D printer than an new Pc, also smartphones predict soon to slowdown sales, most premium phones on Android now cost close to 200$ very few are selling at 600+ also the iPhone can be owned by about 400$ on total cost w/o contract just applying the rigth program from. Apple or others.

 

[merlinmage]

Because until Apple makes a gaming machine, we’ll have to use Windows machines and Hackintoshes for gaming, neither of which are good options. Since we’re Mac users, we’d really like to be able to play games on a Mac, and we really don’t want to have to make Hackintoshes to do it.

Being a Mac user doesn't limit you to use different machines for different tasks such as gaming. And the drivers and grpahic APIs are not really good in OSX.

 

[dpny]

Being a Mac user doesn't limit you to use different machines for different tasks such as gaming. And the drivers and grpahic APIs are not really good in OSX.

Exactly. I have a lovely i7/GTX 980 Windows 10 machine for gaming, and a Mac for everything else. If my old laptop hadn't finally died, I'd still have a Linux machine to mess around with, too.

 

[Daisy81]

Yeah, I know. I just don’t want to have to run Windows for gaming, though I realize some Mac users have Windows PCs for gaming and Macs for everything else. And I don’t know if I’d really want to build a Hackintosh due to issues of legality, ethics, and stability.
[doublepost=1454351013][/doublepost]
Windows PC or Hackintosh?

I can build a machine that would be compatible being turned into a hackintosh, but if I am going to sell the machine I can't advertise it as a hackintosh. Maybe I'll call the line of machines pears.

 

[jblagden]

I can build a machine that would be compatible being turned into a hackintosh, but if I am going to sell the machine I can't advertise it as a hackintosh. Maybe I'll call the line of machines pears.

Is it legal to build a Hackintosh in the US?

I asked about this in The Merged Hackintosh Thread and MacUser2525 said it’s legal in Canda, but I don’t know how that works in the US.

 

[Daisy81]

Do you see that desktop sales shipments year over year are declining? And the trend is not going to change? What happens when with every node, the manufacturing costs are going up, and the whole market of desktop parts is declining? Prices go up. How they can mitigate this? I cannot give you absolutely any specifics at this point, but the reality is: most of the revenue for companies will come from soldered chips. Because they will be able to sell you whole ecosystem. That is the idea. The higher prices are, the better for the companies. It is simple as it can be.

No matter you can argue with that, desktop market is declining. There is number of reasons for that: the boarder of performance between desktop and mobile have disappeared, secondly, the filespan of computers today is much wider than it was few years ago, thirdly, you do not need one device for all of your digital life: Gaming - console, browsing the web - tablet, connecting with people - smartphone.

And it will grow and grow. Lets face it. Desktop in current form is dead, unless... customers will start to buy the PCs in avalanche-like way.

You must understand the market and digital era from every point of view, and context to see where we are heading.

You need to look at how are the parts selling. I can tell you right now companies like ASUS, MSI, ect are making money on the motherboards. If not from companies like Dell and HP from people and companies that use the parts to build their own machines to use/sell.

Just because junk from Dell and HP isn't selling anymore doesn't mean the gaming machines are selling less then they have been for years. You're cherry picking facets of a overarching industry and crying the sky is falling.
[doublepost=1454358512][/doublepost]

Is it legal to build a Hackintosh in the US?

I asked about this in The Merged Hackintosh Thread and MacUser2525 said it’s legal in Canda, but I don’t know how that works in the US.

Do you want to go to court and argue the finer points of hacking another companies proprietary operating system to defeat their security to run it on your machine you are selling? Even if it is legal I don't have the money to mount a defense.

For individuals go for it. It has the potential to be a major PITA but you aren't going to be hauled off and brought in front of a judge as far as I know.

 

[jblagden]

You need to look at how are the parts selling. I can tell you right now companies like ASUS, MSI, ect are making money on the motherboards. If not from companies like Dell and HP from people and companies that use the parts to build their own machines to use/sell.

Just because junk from Dell and HP isn't selling anymore doesn't mean the gaming machines are selling less then they have been for years. You're cherry picking facets of a overarching industry and crying the sky is falling.
[doublepost=1454358512][/doublepost]
Do you want to go to court and argue the finer points of hacking another companies proprietary operating system to defeat their security to run it on your machine you are selling? Even if it is legal I don't have the money to mount a defense.

For individuals go for it. It has the potential to be a major PITA but you aren't going to be hauled off and brought in front of a judge as far as I know.

Okay. That sounds like a 50/50 answer. I don’t know what to make of that.

 

[Daisy81]

Okay. That sounds like a 50/50 answer. I don’t know what to make of that.

Basically it means you are not going to be able to buy a non apple computer that is running OS X without it being a back alley shady deal. However you can hack your own computer all day long to run OS X because Apple isn't going to expend its resources to stop it.

You could buy a premade machine that is reported to be compatible with the hackintosh process. This essentially means that the hardware is 100% ready to have you pop in something like unibeast and your OSX setup thumbdrive and install OS X onto it.
[doublepost=1454360200][/doublepost]

NUC's are for the emerging markets... they are considered desktop replacements, however it is more for future, not exactly today. Imagine a situation where NUC with 25W quad core CPU from Intel is able to deliver performance that is capable of handling 99% of games on 1080p in at least medium settings. And they will cost less than new smartphone.
Declining market is not exactly due to economy. If it would be true smartphone revenue would drop every year, and is not. And are high end smartphones cheap? The revenue from high-end smartphones is growing. They are in the price ranges of quite nice PC. And are way more often bought than PC's.

That is analogy. But you can see what I am talking about.

You know how I know you're not a gamer? Because you used the word games and 1080P in the same sentence as a positive. 1080P is low resolution and last generation. My Core 2 Quad system could do 1080P. It's all about 4 and 5K today. That little machine isn't going to pull off 1080P60 on the current crop of games running on the modern graphics engines.

It's like you forget how much the cost of miniaturization costs and think that these little computers are going to be 6/8 cores with HT and gobs of RAM with the fastest computer graphics cards money can buy.

Those little computers are not for desktop replacements. Those are for presentations in classrooms\boardrooms where performance doesn't matter and the computer is better seen on the screen then on the floor in the way. They build these little machines into the walls or mount them behind the displays.

I have yet to see anyone in the professional word actually using the machines for more then displaying power point or playing a video on the TV.

 

[jblagden]

Basically it means you are not going to be able to buy a non apple computer that is running OS X without it being a back alley shady deal. However you can hack your own computer all day long to run OS X because Apple isn't going to expend its resources to stop it.

You could buy a premade machine that is reported to be compatible with the hackintosh process. This essentially means that the hardware is 100% ready to have you pop in something like unibeast and your OSX setup thumbdrive and install OS X onto it.
/QUOTE]
Oh, okay. So it’s legal to make one, just not to sell one. Thanks!

 

[Daisy81]

Oh, okay. So it’s legal to make one, just not to sell one. Thanks!

Every Jedi must make their own light saber.

 

[dpny]

You know how I know you're not a gamer? Because you used the word games and 1080P in the same sentence as a positive. 1080P is low resolution and last generation. My Core 2 Quad system could do 1080P. It's all about 4 and 5K today.

Except 1080 is still the most popular resolution on Steam. Less than .1% of Steam users are at 4K or above. The next most popular resolution is 1366x768. If you look at multi-monitor users, the most popular, by far, is two 1080 panels.

So, while 4K and above has all the hype, it's pretty rare in the gaming world.

 

[Daisy81]

Except 1080 is still the most popular resolution on Steam. Less than .1% of Steam users are at 4K or above. The next most popular resolution is 1366x768. If you look at multi-monitor users, the most popular, by far, is two 1080 panels.

So, while 4K and above has all the hype, it's pretty rare in the gaming world.

That is the way with progress. The best machines are expensive. 1080P60 in games was not common in 2008. That doesn't change that it is last generation.

 

[dpny]

That is the way with progress. The best machines are expensive. 1080P60 in games was not common in 2008. That doesn't change that it is last generation.

Calling it last generation is meaningless. The GPU requirements for playing an AAA title at 4K/60 fps are still pretty steep. You're looking at a 980Ti at a minimum, if not SLI/Crossfire. This has knock-on effects: more powerful PSU, larger case, etc. Reasonable 4K builds start at around US$2,000-$2,500, and can get much higher if you need something like an IPS panel. 4K might come into its own after the next generation of GPUs and cheaper monitors, but I'm not sure.

I think ultrawide may end up being the real win for gaming machines. Something like a curved 3440x1440 display offers a much better potential FOV than 4K while giving you some peripheral vision depending on your FOV settings.

 

[Daisy81]

Calling it last generation is meaningless. The GPU requirements for playing an AAA title at 4K/60 fps are still pretty steep. You're looking at a 980Ti at a minimum, if not SLI/Crossfire. This has knock-on effects: more powerful PSU, larger case, etc. Reasonable 4K builds start at around US$2,000-$2,500, and can get much higher if you need something like an IPS panel. 4K might come into its own after the next generation of GPUs and cheaper monitors, but I'm not sure.

I think ultrawide may end up being the real win for gaming machines. Something like a curved 3440x1440 display offers a much better potential FOV than 4K while giving you some peripheral vision depending on your FOV settings.

It is just as last generation as the iPhone 6. Lots of people me included still use a iPhone 6 but it is last generation and the iPhone 6S is the current generation.

Ultra wide is a competing format. It is between 4K/5K and Ultra Wide at the moment. I would classify them all as the current generation. of course that grouping is a matter of my opinion. However it is fact that 1080P is last generation.

Edit: Speaking of Ultra Wide monitors. That Dell Ultra Wide curved monitor is very tempting. I'm still debating between one 5K and two ultra wide curved monitors.

 

[h9826790]

I see something different. There are more and more "console like" gaming PC. Steam introduce big picture mode (TV mode). Large TV is getting cheaper and cheaper.

There is a trend that to use TV for PC gaming. You may call it "non serious gaming". However, it's not about serious or not, but what people may do in the future (like the VR).

I am those kind of people will get whatever I want regardless the cost (as long as I can afford it), but the majority of gamer do really care about the cost. That's why 1080p still the majority at this moment (relatively low system requirement, and good cost to performance ratio).

If we consider these factors as well. I can't see how the ultra wide monitor can be the winner. It's relatively expensive because of that "unusual ratio", quite a lot of gamers will just get an extra 1080p monitor ISO "upgrade" to the ultra wide. I hate any gap between monitor, I will never do that (That's why I get a 84" 4K TV for gaming), but most of the gamer will just accept it because they want to lower the cost and get more pixel at the same time.

The input lag on the TV is huge if compare to a gaming monitor. However, again, it's not about how serious in gaming, but the cost to performance ratio. Most of the TV now offer TV mode or PC mode, this mode has much lower input lag (still not as good as the monitor, but already good enough for gaming). Including myself, quite a few of my friends already use TV for gaming. Just few hundred bucks can get a 42" 1080P TV, which is good enough for 1080 60FPS, then why spend the same amount but get a much smaller monitor? And now, the 4K TV has HDMI 2.0, so 4K 60PFS gaming is possible. And once again, 4K TV usually much cheaper than 4K monitor (for the same size). For gamer, this is a good news. As long as they have HDMI 2.0 output, and don't care about that little extra input lag. 4K TV is good for all 1080P, 1440P and 4K gaming. Even the PC can only output 1080 60FPS, the upscale / AA function in the 4K TV may make the picture looks better than normal 1080P picture, this is the extra bonus, and something that the monitor cannot offer. A little bit extra input lag but better picture, sounds like a good trade off for some non serious gamer like me.

In the Nvidia website, there is a page to help the gamer to choose the right GPU. Only 1080P, 1440P, and 4K avail on that page. For me, that means even Nvidia assume these 3 resolutions are the most common current and future resolution, but not ultra wide.

The ultra wide monitor may be the future for the serious gamers, but I don't think it will be the next most popular resolution for gaming, because TV may become more and more important on PC gaming, but only very very few TV offer ultra wide resolution.

 

[jblagden]

In addition to what Stacc said above, there's no way Apple would make a profit off a box aimed directly at gamers. The gaming hardware market is too small to justify the investment. And while such a machine would obviously be bought by people other than gamers, considering that something like 80% of Apple's sales are laptops, there probably isn't money in it outside of the gamer market.

What about an upgradeable Mac desktop which is aimed at anyone who wants upgrades, and can be customized for gamers?

 

[kennyisalive]

Macs for gaming are a complete joke.

The fact they haven't updated them is only insult to injury.

 

[jblagden]

Macs for gaming are a complete joke.

The fact they haven't updated them is only insult to injury.

Which OS would you use for gaming?

 

[Botts85]

This whole thread is screaming "echo chamber" to me. The fact of the matter is that desktop PCs are softening, and a large investment in the cost-conscious gaming market doesn't make sense for Apple. The Mac Pros were never targeted at consumers, look at the pricing and hardware decisions.

Apple would have to have a major culture change to moving to building a box where you can upgrade hardware at will as the end user. AppleCare would have a panic attack having to support every new GPU that someone wanted to install. Look at the Classic Mac Pro's and the limited list of GPUs that Apple actually supported. People hacked firmware to get other cards working which was great, but Apple would never support it.

Apple will keep dumping money into mobile gaming as that market is growing wildly. On the other hand, PC gaming is contracting.

 

[lowendlinux]

This whole thread is screaming "echo chamber" to me. The fact of the matter is that desktop PCs are softening, and a large investment in the cost-conscious gaming market doesn't make sense for Apple. The Mac Pros were never targeted at consumers, look at the pricing and hardware decisions.

Apple would have to have a major culture change to moving to building a box where you can upgrade hardware at will as the end user. AppleCare would have a panic attack having to support every new GPU that someone wanted to install. Look at the Classic Mac Pro's and the limited list of GPUs that Apple actually supported. People hacked firmware to get other cards working which was great, but Apple would never support it.

Apple will keep dumping money into mobile gaming as that market is growing wildly. On the other hand, PC gaming is contracting.

No PC gaming is growing and PC gamers are not the most cost conscious bunch out there