Thanks for your detailed reply. Just taking time to study your argument and the links in your data .... get back to you shortly.
Er.... I didn’t say that .... I said some volcanic eruptions on Earth have 60% steam in their gas emissions, and you need the water/steam pressures of violent pyroclast eruptions to throw these minerals sufficiently high in the air to fall as round beaded minerals ...... the high concentrations of green magnesium beads being sampled by Apollo 15+17 having a correlation to high concentrations of magnesium in Earth’s oceans and volcanic spring water.Again, you seem to think that Volcanic Gas == Water Vapor, it really doesnt, (especially on the moon), think you need water and steam to create pyroclastic glaas (hint: you don't) and none of this gets you flowing water on the surface of the moon for millions of years to create the Rille. On the other hand we know that the Moon has alot of volcanoes, and that lava flows lots better on the moon then on earth. Is there water on the moon, absolutely, did it form the Rille, absolutely not, and you have yet to find a scientist that says otherwise. Water can't flow on the surface of the moon, so water didnt make the Rille, lava can and has flowed all over the moon tonight go out and take a look at the Mares to see how much lava flowed on the moon. -Tig
I am more than happy to be alone joining the dots on the scientific data differently to Lava Theorists .... it’s what pioneering thinkers have to do all the time - not that what I am saying is pioneering, it’s probably been said before, but just ignored. It does concern me why scientists have swallowed Lava Rille Theory hook, line and sinker for soooo long, when the photographic evidence so strongly discounts it. It has been interesting to dig out the small nuggets of scientific research that supports my theory as this debate unfolds ..... the geochemistry research experiments of Dr Wendy Panero may give another clue I might be on to something here (See below).Is there water on the moon, absolutely, did it form the Rille, absolutely not, and you have yet to find a scientist that says otherwise. Water can't flow on the surface of the moon, so water didnt make the Rille, lava can and has flowed all over the moon tonight go out and take a look -Tig
Apologies for delayed reply, busy week.
Firstly, thanks for the interesting links... but posting great pictures that boost my theory.... is that wise? ....
See Pic 2 in this link Tig posted.
http://www.lroc.asu.edu/posts/1022
Bit puzzled why astronomers are not seeing the association between meteor impact, fracturing around crater eruptions/lava fields and rille formation? .... Especially when there are quite a few lunar rilles that originate directly out of the ‘eye’ of an impact!
Seeing the depth of the Aristarchus Impact close to the Herodotus lava field explains why so much subterranean chamber fracturing occured here and why radon gas seepage was detected. As deep as the Grand Canyon apparently.The shock waves of this impact must have done some serious damage underground. The bright albedo from materials ejected and heat generated could easily have created the localised pressures to force significant water reserves out of the Cobra’s Head.
The Cobra’s Head might be an angled impact ‘eye’ right near the lava field triggering the significant ‘ooze’. Breaking tubes of condensated water at an angle surely increases the size of the leakage hole?
In the bottom left of this picture we have another ‘eye’ impact rille.
We also see a complete absence of lava residue or a lava field at the end of each rille, or any disturbance of the Mares ...... and we now know shallow lava tubes 1.5km - 10 km wide (Hadley-Schroter) aren’t an observable reality in our Solar System.
From this picture alone, astronomers must surely conclude lava wasn’t involved, ......
Er.... I didn’t say that .... I said some volcanic eruptions on Earth have 60% steam in their gas emissions, and you need the water/steam pressures of violent pyroclast eruptions to throw these minerals sufficiently high in the air to fall as round beaded minerals ...... the high concentrations of green magnesium beads being sampled by Apollo 15+17 having a correlation to high concentrations of magnesium in Earth’s oceans and volcanic spring water.
I am more than happy to be alone joining the dots on the scientific data differently to Lava Theorists .... it’s what pioneering thinkers have to do all the time - not that what I am saying is pioneering, it’s probably been said before, but just ignored.
Just caught a short Horizon documentary “Ocean’s of the Solar System” .... in the 18 minute version, the discussion mentioned calcium perchrorite salts on Mars lowering the freezing point of water.
Here is a related article: https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html
Re: Tig’s concerns over low temperature water flow on the Moon’s surface .... if there are salts with similar properties dissolved in lunar volcanic spring sources, the temperature of oozing and this ‘antifreeze’ quality may combine to keep water liquid to create erosion features before it eventually evaporates.
How confused are you? Literally the picture shows the cobra which erupted lava creating the Rille which then flowed into Oceanus Procellarum (Ocean of Storms)which I believe you will find is the largest dried lava field on the moon and one of the largest in the solar system. Its thousands of square miles in size and miles and miles and miles deep. How exactly is flowing into the largest area of hardened lava on the moon, not showing you where the lava went???? Again, the moon is too cold for flowing water, pure water freezes at 0 degrees C, Salt water gets you -2 Degrees, nothing gets you water flowing at -170 degrees that the moon is when its night.
Again, no, you simply don't understand physics or chemistry, not sure which I should try and teach you first. High concentration of Magnesium beads in Apollo moon rocks have NO correlation to concentrations of Magnesium in Earths oceans or volcanic springs.
Look you can be Don Quixote if you want, but the rest of us really know its a windmill and not a giant.
-Tig
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Again, mixing things into water can lower the freezing temperature of water. Our Salty oceans freeze at about -2 degrees Celsius instead of 0 like pure water, but the moon is -170 degrees celsius at night and I don't know of anything that makes water not freeze at that temperature and why hasn't this substance been found in the samples from the moon while the the mars data has been known for awhile?? And then it goes day and the water in the sun is destroyed by he sunlight on the moon, so you just dont have the millions of years of flowing water (ie the grand canyon you were mentioning) on the moon, no atmosphere, no good temperature ranges and so no opportunity. Its lava flows, you really need to stop looking at pictures and saying this is what I think it looks like or you are doing Platypus science, and you really don't want to be doing that.
-Tig
I can see geology and volcanism are not your strong points, firstly the Cobra’s Head is NOT a volcanic crater. Proof: http://bit.ly/2NczYHkow confused are you? Literally the picture shows the cobra which erupted lava creating the Rille which then flowed into Oceanus Procellarum (Ocean of Storms)which I believe you will find is the largest dried lava field on the moon and one of the largest in the solar system.
Again, no, you simply don't understand physics or chemistry, not sure which I should try and teach you first. High concentration of Magnesium beads in Apollo moon rocks have NO correlation to concentrations of Magnesium in Earths oceans or volcanic springs.
Again, mixing things into water can lower the freezing temperature of water. Our Salty oceans freeze at about -2 degrees Celsius instead of 0 like pure water, but the moon is -170 degrees celsius at night and I don't know of anything that makes water not freeze at that temperature and why hasn't this substance been found in the samples from the moon while the the mars data has been known for awhile?? And then it goes day and the water in the sun is destroyed by he sunlight on the moon, so you just dont have the millions of years of flowing water (ie the grand canyon you were mentioning) on the moon, no atmosphere, no good temperature ranges and so no opportunity.
I can see geology and volcanism are not your strong points, firstly the Cobra’s Head is NOT a volcanic crater. Proof: http://bit.ly/2NczYHk
Ask any geologist for a second opinion.
Maybe astronomers should leave the interpretation of planet formation and rille theory to geologists in future? .... if this is the level of expertise astronomers are reaching here.
Herodotus is the dead volcanic crater here, with it’s lava field running towards the Head. You can see the rough undulations of the lava flow mixed with ejecta from the deep Aristarchus meteor impact. (Overview 2nd image here: http://www.lroc.asu.edu/posts/1022)
Er .... it’s easier for me to teach you the correlation is that magnesium also appears in HIGH concentrations in our oceans and springs ..... Confirmed by the research experiments of Dr Wendy Panero to have been formed as a bi-product of rock liquefaction ..... which has occured to a large degree on the moon. If you are still struggling with ‘correlating’ ..... this snippet quote from Wikipedia on Lunar Water:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_water
“Lunar scientists had discussed the possibility of water repositories for decades. They are now increasingly "confident that the decades-long debate is over" a report says. "The Moon, in fact, has water in all sorts of places; not just locked up in minerals, but scattered throughout the broken-up surface, and, potentially, in blocks or sheets of ice at depth." The results from the Chandrayaan-1 mission are also "offering a wide array of watery signals.
And the water locked up in minerals? ......
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/moon-once-harbored-water/
The Apollo samples taken around Hadley Rille etc.
Current lunar night freezing temperatures at the Poles (-170 degrees) are not a sticking point for this theory. Schroter’s Valley is not at the Poles!
Er .... Geologists will also confirm spring water from volcanic sources often comes out of the ground ‘ready heated’ ...... Besides, with all that intensive lunar volcanic action over 3 billion years and beyond, where do you get the idea the ground is going to be freezing cold throughout rille creation history?
Even between Tig’s extremes of current day/night temperatures (with strangely nothing in between) .... rilles will get at least 12+ hours morning/dusk free flowing erosion action per day over 3 billion years!
Weak atmosphere’s change, spring water cools .... scenarios change alot in 3 billion years. Just because some astronomers don’t want it to happen, because it upsets their precious theory ..... believe me .... it happened when conditions were right ..... and have been proven to be right .... the photos clearly show it.
One other point,
I didn’t state it was Calcium Perchlorite salts that were the ‘antifreeze’ ingredient involved here on the Moon .... as I have mentioned above, no ‘antifreeze’ or chemical dissolving may be necessary in this scenario ..... but still interesting to see if traces exist in deep core samples from the bottom of Hadley Rille.
Hopefully this spring water might be incredibly pure and drinkable as surface staining of rille sands seems to be minimal.
Also, one other scenario exists where the flow of this water could be underneath the bottom of each rille ‘insulated’ from extremes of temperature/evaporation factors ..... the loose particulate above collapsing in after erosion of the channel then smoothed off by historic mild ‘wind’ erosion ..... (the lunar wind that created the dunes the lunar rover bounced over?).
Why don’t astronomers on here want to talk about how those dunes were formed? ...... Because wind and water erosion is strangely taboo to them in all historic lunar scenarios.
I can see geology and volcanism are not your strong points, firstly the Cobra’s Head is NOT a volcanic crater. Proof: http://bit.ly/2NczYHk
Ask any geologist for a second opinion.
Maybe astronomers should leave the interpretation of planet formation and rille theory to geologists in future? .... if this is the level of expertise astronomers are reaching here.
Herodotus is the dead volcanic crater here, with it’s lava field running towards the Head. You can see the rough undulations of the lava flow mixed with ejecta from the deep Aristarchus meteor impact. (Overview 2nd image here: http://www.lroc.asu.edu/posts/1022)
Current lunar night freezing temperatures at the Poles (-170 degrees) are not a sticking point for this theory. Schroter’s Valley is not at the Poles!
Er .... Geologists will also confirm spring water from volcanic sources often comes out of the ground ‘ready heated’ ...... Besides, with all that intensive lunar volcanic action over 3 billion years and beyond, where do you get the idea the ground is going to be freezing cold throughout rille creation history?
Even between Tig’s extremes of current day/night temperatures (with strangely nothing in between) .... rilles will get at least 12+ hours morning/dusk free flowing erosion action per day over 3 billion years!
400, .... Appreciate your point about pressures, but most celestial bodies in our Solar System have been through varying degrees of change in axis rotation/temperature/pressure/magnetic fields/atmospheres in their evolution to the present day ..... and still show signs of historic surface water flow ...... which begs the question ..... can current day scenarios really apply to historic rille formation?.
You make two incorrect assumptions, Sceptical .....But post #84 is not the first time that @Tigger11 pointed this out to you, @Dubdrifter.
Over the course of the thread, @Tigger11 has made this very point many times in several different posts about the stark and swift and striking differences between the temperatures of the surface of the moon during the lunar day and the lunar night, and how, for different reasons, not least the complete absence of an atmosphere, this means that the conditions of neither the lunar day nor the lunar night could ever have allowed water to exist in a liquid form on the surface of the moon.
However, I am pleased to see that you have been persuaded of the validity of his arguments.
Don’t really understand your problem with the links I’m posting to illustrate the point I am making. 99% the sources are linked to good solid scientific research from reputable websites .... I didn’t say nobody had looked at the dunes and studied them ..... people on this thread were claiming the moon never had a significant atmosphere ..... I questioned how the dunes were formed and smoothed .... no one answered. They still haven’t answered about the complete absence of lava residues ..... even if it ran into the Mares there should be traces.
If people are going to defend lava theory .... dodging the awkward questions doesn’t look good. At least with temperature extremes I’ve made a stab at 2 ways water still flowed ..... either subsurface erosion/dissolving(which could be/have been confirmed by laboratory experimentation) or historically these extremes were not severe enough to stop periodic gushes of erosion.
There are many rilles and erosions that suggest water on other planets + moons. Red Tomatoe’s geyser erosion traces look interesting, Io too ..... anywhere rock liquifies should drive out water/steam, the % depending on substrate composition..... wonder if it’s pyroclast/geyser type forces that are throwing Io’s sulphur so high in the air .... in a similar way to steam geysers on Enceladus. Do you know if there is a water signature in the plumes of Io, 400?
comes from to hold up flowing water on the moon?There are many rilles and erosions that suggest water on other planets + moons.
Why don’t astronomers on here want to talk about how those dunes were formed? ...... Because wind and water erosion is strangely taboo to them in all historic lunar scenarios.
I didn’t say nobody had looked at the dunes and studied them
Think I mentioned in an earlier post the discussion with the experienced astronomer at the Bluedot Festival about the Aristarchus impact? She made the same point you are making about heat, rock melt and vaporisation. Thinking later, I thought this impact was far enough away from the Cobra's head not to vaporise everything(!) but just fracture by vibration the network of lava tubes nearby filled with condensed water accumulated as Herodotus died and cooled. Further condensation processes continuing after the Aristarchus impact cooled might have sustain water production and flow as steam pressure in the chambers worked to eject sufficient water volumes during 'lunar night/day transition phases to create the erosion observed.Meteor impacts tend to generate a lot of heat. That heat can vaporize rock. Since water vaporizes at a far lower temperature than rock, it seems pretty likely (to me) that whatever water was in the immediate impact zone would go from solid to vapor in an instant. If rock was melted, the in-rushing "flood" of melted subsurface ice would have continued to vaporize for quite a while after the rock cooled to a solid state. Likely, that cooled rock would not be very porous, effectively cauterizing the wound. (I'm explaining this in terms of an impact crater rather than a volcanic crater because the OP thinks the "cobra head" looks more like an impact crater than a volcanic crater
Most rilles on the moon seem to be an erosion through loose ejecta, if the the erosion is on the surface shouldn't some residue fragments be visible?What are "lava residues?" You're expecting to see the equivalent of a river delta? Is it at all possible that what you expect to see is buried under lunar dust from subsequent impact ejecta and or lava flows? The entire surface of the moon is rock. Lava is rock. You're looking at rock and saying, effectively, "Where's the rock?"
Yes, I read an interesting article suggesting something similar, but it seemed to be such a 'long shot'(like ice comets filling polar lunar craters with water!) …. you'd need alot of 'blast waves' considering the sheer number and size of 'dunes' on the moon! Easier to suggest periods of weak atmosphere and temp fluctuations creating wind which just blew the stuff into those shapes, and smoothed the 'sand' in and around the rilles - coincidentally also helps give water ooze theory a better chance to make an 'impression'!I haven't researched the dunes (or what appear to be dunes), but one possibility is blast waves. Obviously not atmospheric blast waves, but the kind that occur in a vacuum - rapidly moving impact crater ejecta, expanding hot gasses released when rock is vaporized (by a meteor impact), etc. That kind of material-in-motion is short-lived, but the results can be preserved for a very long time when there is no atmosphere/wind to disturb it.
Since the atmosphere was lost over 3 billion years ago, the temperature of the moon has been pretty stable, there is nothing to change its cycle. We've had volcanic activity, we've had some spectacular comet or meteor strikes, but basically the sun, moon and earth dynamic has been the same since the atmopshere went away. I still think you don't understand how the moon's 27 earth day long day works, so I am going to try and explain it like they taught me at college, which is where I first understood it, and hope that helps.You make two incorrect assumptions, Sceptical .....
1)“could ever have allowed water to exist in a liquid form on the surface of the moon“. ..... as the Moon transitions between extreme temperature phases at the ice edge at the Poles, surely, even currently, there is liquid water at all times on the surface of our moon evaporating or condensing at this periphery?
Historically, has it been scientifically proven these temperature extremes have been in place for the 1 billion years of alleged rille formation?(Link to data?) ..... and judged to stop water flowing sufficiently to create erosion features?
The ‘lava’ argument is made contrary to geologist’s knowledge that asks awkward questions: “Why no trace of lava residues? ALL residue disappearing into the Mares? Rilles running for hundreds of km as a single often clean cut track? Lava tubes described sustaining impossible widths(in Schroter’s Valley)?..... and very unlikely lengths(hundreds of kms)? ..... then collapsing uniformly, in all cases, along their entire length?”
Will Astronomers ever get over the BIG hurdle of extreme temperatures, atmospherics and Solar Wind stripping ...... and entertain ‘ooze’ erosion theory?
Gaps in knowledge sometimes allow people to think past problems, get over hurdles(without going into the realms of fantasy) .... maybe this is an instance where looking back over the data can ‘engineer’ astronomers more in line with the photographic/geological realities.
Actually they probably should camp in the mountains near the north pole, where they can have solar panels working every hour of the 27 earth days that make up the Moon day. Plus lots of water at the bottom of the craters.Footnote:
If future Lunar Colonists want an ‘easier ride’ during their stay on the moon, the suggestion is to park their lunar lodge on this more clement Polar perifery where they know water constantly liquifies and freezes - let the climate boil their eggs in the morning, cook their midday meal, and provide ice for their evening cocktails during their long 13.5 days and nights!
Note: The contour map makes the case for lava running into the Mares during the first erosion phase ..... but doesn't explain the fine secondary erosion phase, or controversy whether the Cobra’s Head is a volcanic vent or an angled small meteor puncture releasing a ‘gusher’ from many cracked underground condensate reservoirs damaged by the Aristarchus Meteor hit.
One of last links mention ppm concentration of water was small, and then there is that dreaded pressure. Remember the trick question in Physics class? What temperature does water boil at? Us young un's at the time, 100 deg C without a doubt. Everyone knew that, obvious. What a silly question we all tittered.
We were right and a lot wrong, only at sea level, at a certain pressure. We then get an experiment with a bell jar and petri dish of water and a vacuum pump and see that it changes (one experiment for you). Such a pump I understand could not get down to the levels of the Moon vacuum. Mars also has an atmosphere but at such a low pressure you would asphyxiate even if the right proportions of gases that we need existed. Flowing water on mars at the moment? Back to sublimation. I understand that what atmosphere the Moon could have had would have been less than what mars is now?
Since the atmosphere was lost over 3 billion years ago, the temperature of the moon has been pretty stable, there is nothing to change its cycle. We've had volcanic activity, we've had some spectacular comet or meteor strikes, but basically the sun, moon and earth dynamic has been the same since the atmopshere went away.
One of last links mention ppm concentration of water was small, and then there is that dreaded pressure. Remember the trick question in Physics class? What temperature does water boil at? Us young un's at the time, 100 deg C without a doubt. Everyone knew that, obvious. What a silly question we all tittered.
We were right and a lot wrong, only at sea level, at a certain pressure. We then get an experiment with a bell jar and petri dish of water and a vacuum pump and see that it changes (one experiment for you). Such a pump I understand could not get down to the levels of the Moon vacuum. Mars also has an atmosphere but at such a low pressure you would asphyxiate even if the right proportions of gases that we need existed. Flowing water on mars at the moment? Back to sublimation. I understand that what atmosphere the Moon could have had would have been less than what mars is now?
I declare your post OFFICIALLY best post of the thread, not sure since I have both done and taught that experiment, why I didn't come up with that comment but it is completely true. According to my CRC (and the internet), in a vacuum, water boils at 7 degrees celsius. So we aren't talking about the time it takes to go from 0 degrees to 100 degrees celsius for you to have running water on the moon to carve the Rille, we are talking the time it takes with all the radiation destroying the water as it happens for the water to go from 0 degrees to 7 degrees, because at 7 degrees it boils away, even if the radiation has not destroyed it. How long under that big hot sun with no atmosphere do you thing it takes to go from 0 degrees to 7 degrees Dubdrifter?