PowerMac G4, recommended AGP card?

[e5frog]

So if I understand correctly a GeForce 4MX could be installed (an Apple version) plug and play basically?
Checking eBay though they seem to have that extra tab past the AGP connector.
IIRC the victim has the same kind of board that AphoticD has here with no connector for that:
https://forums.macrumors.com/attachments/img_2199-jpg.722014/

But I really should snap a few images...

If anyone of you have a link to a card that I can buy, it would be most appreciated. This conversations hasn't made me a whole lot more certain of what to get.

I'm tempted to get a Radeon 9xxx card, flash firmware and install drivers though, if I can find one of those locally (Sweden).
[doublepost=1544798024][/doublepost]I found a GF4 Ti4200-8X (128MB) card, is that something that I can use, I guess it needs to be flashed with Mac firmware?
Also a Radeon 9550 (128MB)... same question there. These are about $13-14 so not a big expense, but I thought I'd ask before experimenting.

 

[bunnspecial]

The tab forward of the AGP slot is for ADC power-or in other words to power a connected monitor. Some G5 cards draw extra power for the card from it(in lieu of needing an extra power cord-the 6800 Ultra comes to mind) but this isn't true of any of the G4 cards. If your computer doesn't have a socket for AGP power(i.e. the Sawtooth) you just won't be able to power an ADC monitor from the ADC port. You can still use a passive adapter to convert it to a DVI port and run any monitor off of it.

Avoid the 9550 for OS 9 use. It is a Core Image card.

In general, I find nVidia cards a pain to flash, and I'm not sure if there's a ROM that's compatible with the 4200(the Mac edition is a 4600). Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about flashing will respond, but I'd stay clear of it.

 

[e5frog]

Thanks bunnspecial, clears some things up. Monitor to be used has DVI and VGA so ADC is not an option.

I saw something about the 4200 on macos9lives.com, there's a "GeForce4 Titanium Rom Maker" apparently, so it seems possible. But I had no initial intentions of experimenting.
A Mac-version card should work fine then, even if there's no mating connector for that power tab.

Posted here rather recently 4Ti flash:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/geforce-6600-6200-rom-makers.2139424/

 

[e5frog]

FYI.
The 820-1094-A motherboard looks exactly as the board in the machine in question - as far as I can tell, so no tab for ADC power.

 

[bunnspecial]

I've never actually tested it, but I'm 99% sure that even without the ADC power tab, the ADC port will function as a DVI port if you connect an ADC-DVI adapter to it. ADC is, after all, DVI with some "extras"(specifically power for the monitor, USB, and power-on).

The board you show is out of a Sawtooth G4, and they did not support ADC(that came with the Gigabit Ethernet model, with the never used but great code names of Mystic, Medusa, and Snakebite). Aside from the lack of ADC, the internal FW port(at the top of the board) is a dead give-away about it being a Sawtooth board.

In any case, I take care of a Sawtooth at work that's running a Radeon 9000 out of an MDD. The card works fine(with the ATI drivers installed in OS 9.2.2), although it's only driving a single 1920x1080 DVI monitor.

 

[e5frog]

"Merry" New Year to all of you! ;-)
Thanks for four never-ending patience.

I was about to get this:
https://www.local338shop.com/products/ati-radeon-9200-128mb-agp-video-card-for-apple-powermac-g4-g5

Which seems to be a flashed plain ATi-card, but it doesn't say that it works with OS9.2... so, should I get it? Is it a version that needs drivers installed pre-installation?

 

[timidpimpin]

"Merry" New Year to all of you! ;-)
Thanks for four never-ending patience.

I was about to get this:
https://www.local338shop.com/products/ati-radeon-9200-128mb-agp-video-card-for-apple-powermac-g4-g5

Which seems to be a flashed plain ATi-card, but it doesn't say that it works with OS9.2... so, should I get it? Is it a version that needs drivers installed pre-installation?

There are OS 9 drivers for the 9200. https://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/#CR

The 9200 is pretty much the same GPU as the 8500 and 9000. Both the 9000 and 9200 are an under-clocked 8500. Makes no sense that they give some less powerful cards a higher number, but they did.

 

[bunnspecial]

IMO, that's a lot of money for a 9200...you can most likely find a Geforce 4Ti for that kind of price.

If you're going for a 9xxx series card, I'd still suggest a Mac edition 9000....

 

[nglevin]

I've seen the rarer PCI 9200s NIB for a third of that price.

For AGP, you can do better than a 9200. In fact, I'd almost suggest sticking with the Rage because Rhapsody aka Mac OS X Server 1.0 has drivers for it, and the newer cards do not.

I vaguely recall hearing about some other funny issues with 9200s with respect to its use as the GPU on the Mac Mini G4. Incidentally, you could probably find an entire Mac Mini G4 for the price of that 9200.

 

[bunnspecial]

For AGP, you can do better than a 9200. In fact, I'd almost suggest sticking with the Rage because Rhapsody aka Mac OS X Server 1.0 has drivers for it, and the newer cards do not.

I'd say that the need to support Rhapsody or any variant is probably a fringe case even on this forum.

I know it has its devotees, but it's even more outdated than OS 9 and doesn't have the software support.

I have a few installs of it(and Server 1.2v3) kicking around here, but they're mostly on G3 towers.

OS 9 itself won't necessarily benefit from a better GPU than a Rage 128(unless you're pushing a lot of pixels, as the OP is, and/or running multiple displays-yes 8 are possible in OS 9 with the right tower and combination of cards) but applications that can use GPU accel certainly will benefit from it.

 

[nglevin]

OK, but barring that you're still looking at a video card that costs about what a Mac Mini G4 does second hand, for a G4 tower that is likely less powerful than the Mini if it shipped with the Rage.

I was trying to think of any advantage that the G4 tower has with an AGP 9200 and it really comes up short compared to a Mini today. Rhapsody was the only thing I could think of. Maybe you could use a Zip drive too?

EDIT: And I'm considering that the Mini is OS 9 capable now, which is probably shifting the math in a different direction than it would otherwise.

 

[timidpimpin]

OK, but barring that you're still looking at a video card that costs about what a Mac Mini G4 does second hand, for a G4 tower that is likely less powerful than the Mini if it shipped with the Rage.

I was trying to think of any advantage that the G4 tower has with an AGP 9200 and it really comes up short compared to a Mini today. Rhapsody was the only thing I could think of. Maybe you could use a Zip drive too?

The OP wants to run a monitor at 1080p, and won't be able to do that with the Rage.

 

[nglevin]

Well, it's their money. If they must use the G4 tower, it's a solution. It's just, I'd hold out for a much better graphics card at a better price.

 

[bunnspecial]

I can't speak to the OP's specific use case, but G4 towers let you install expansion cards.

I have several that I run various SCSI peripherals off of. Some other folks might be doing audio or A/V stuff that needs its own cards.

There's also the fact that you can cram a lot more storage in an G4 tower than you can with a Mini and its increasingly difficult to find 44 pin ATA 2.5" drive. A stock Sawtooth can take 4 drives if you lose the optical drive and keep it under 128gb per drive. Add ATA or, even better, SATA cards and you can go nuts with both speed and capacity.

You have plenty of options on CPU upgrades for your tower also if you want to go that route. Not all Sawtooths(Sawteeth?) will play nicely with dual processors, although that's not a big deal for OS 9 since only a few select programs can use both. You can get up to 2ghz on a single 7448, though, which is also has some big advantages over the 7447A in the Mini. Somewhere around 1.2ghz, a 7450-series processor with L3 cache starts to compete fairly well with 7447s in the 1.5ghz range.

I am admittedly a bit biased, as the G4 Mini is one of my least favorite Macs ever made. If you just want a small form factor box to play old games or the like(or run MorphOS), an argument can be made for them. I've done a LOT of stuff with my G4 towers, though, that just isn't physically possible on a Mini. The one set up on my kitchen table now is one such example-it's a Digital Audio tower, and it's faster in OS 9 and OS X than any Mini you will find.

 

[nglevin]

hahaha I just caught up with the G4 Mac Mini thread from 2017 at 68k MLA where I saw you there, too. Alas I am the fan of compact Quadras, PowerBook G4s and Minis.

I apologize for the derail! My main beef is that the 9200 is not a great video card, not great for even 2000-2001s 3D graphics but it'll do Myth II at 1080p. Ehh. There's better cards to drive stuff like Shogo and Quake III on OS 9.

I have the scars to show that I have tricked out at least two towers, I get the appeal. Though the market for CPU upgrades and GPU upgrades has been drying up on fleabay, unfortunately. Then, it was a distraction that was very doable on a college mail room salary. Today? Not so much...

 

[LightBulbFun]

I've never actually tested it, but I'm 99% sure that even without the ADC power tab, the ADC port will function as a DVI port if you connect an ADC-DVI adapter to it. ADC is, after all, DVI with some "extras"(specifically power for the monitor, USB, and power-on).

The board you show is out of a Sawtooth G4, and they did not support ADC(that came with the Gigabit Ethernet model, with the never used but great code names of Mystic, Medusa, and Snakebite). Aside from the lack of ADC, the internal FW port(at the top of the board) is a dead give-away about it being a Sawtooth board.

In any case, I take care of a Sawtooth at work that's running a Radeon 9000 out of an MDD. The card works fine(with the ATI drivers installed in OS 9.2.2), although it's only driving a single 1920x1080 DVI monitor.

correct, you can use an ADC port as a DVI port with a passive ADC-DVI adapter even if you dont connect the power tab, I have done this many times with a Radeon 9000 Pro from an MDD, in my Sawtooth

also as mentioned, I too for a good relatively out of the box experience, recommend getting an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro from an MDD or such, especially if you want a good (Dual) DVI card for OS 9

I would avoid cards like the $60ish Flashed 9200 AGP card thats for sale on ebay, not only is that a massive rip off, it also is a b*tch to get working properly in OS 9.2.2

 

[DearthnVader]

correct, you can use an ADC port as a DVI port with a passive ADC-DVI adapter even if you dont connect the power tab, I have done this many times with a Radeon 9000 Pro from an MDD, in my Sawtooth

also as mentioned, I too for a good relatively out of the box experience, recommend getting an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro from an MDD or such, especially if you want a good (Dual) DVI card for OS 9

I would avoid cards like the $60ish Flashed 9200 AGP card thats for sale on ebay, not only is that a massive rip off, it also is a b*tch to get working properly in OS 9.2.2

A 9200 AGP isn't a bad card, but it's doubtful the seller ever tested it with OS 9. Each 9200 seems to have it's own device ID that requires hacking the OS 9 drivers to support it, not really hard, once you know what you are doing, but most people are lazy.

If I gave $60 for a 9200, I'd want the seller to give me working OS 9 drivers.

 

[e5frog]

I got the card in late March (took about 4 months - thanks to Swedish postal service), it had instructions and drivers for OS9 on a mini-CD, so far so good.
Installation was attempted by my friend but the computer started freezing/crashing, but at least we got 1920x1080 resolution (AKA HD resolution).
Even though swapping back to the original card it kept crashing so I reinstalled from scratch. Swedish OS9.2.1 installation with 9.2.2 upgrade (9.2.2 required according to installation documents). Installation of drivers with the old card inserted. It also said I needed QuickTime 6.x but I couldn't find it in Swedish (wouldn't install English 6.0.3 version) - not sure why. Tried it without when I gave up trying to find it.

Same problem again.

Lastly I reinstalled the old graphics card and 9.2.1 - and things are back to where we started, 4.5 hours later.

Guess it would have been easier to try and find a "power-tab-less" AGP card with Mac firmware that is already supported by OS9.2.1 or 9.2.2 and not having to mess with external drivers. I have no idea where to find one.

So as was written above:

I would avoid cards like the $60ish Flashed 9200 AGP card thats for sale on ebay, not only is that a massive rip off, it also is a b*tch to get working properly in OS 9.2.2

I agree - can it even be made to work? What to do if you can't find anything else?
Any suggestions on what to do and perhaps check if it's even flashed for Mac?

 

[bunnspecial]

If you got any display out at all, most likely the car was Mac flashed-the quality of the ROM is probably just questionable.

My GUESS is that the card would be fine in OS X, but there again you're better off with an inexpensive but better AGP Mac edition card.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I got the card in late March (took about 4 months - thanks to Swedish postal service), it had instructions and drivers for OS9 on a mini-CD, so far so good.
Installation was attempted by my friend but the computer started freezing/crashing, but at least we got 1920x1080 resolution (AKA HD resolution).
Even though swapping back to the original card it kept crashing so I reinstalled from scratch. Swedish OS9.2.1 installation with 9.2.2 upgrade (9.2.2 required according to installation documents). Installation of drivers with the old card inserted. It also said I needed QuickTime 6.x but I couldn't find it in Swedish (wouldn't install English 6.0.3 version) - not sure why. Tried it without when I gave up trying to find it.

Same problem again.

Lastly I reinstalled the old graphics card and 9.2.1 - and things are back to where we started, 4.5 hours later.

Guess it would have been easier to try and find a "power-tab-less" AGP card with Mac firmware that is already supported by OS9.2.1 or 9.2.2 and not having to mess with external drivers. I have no idea where to find one.

So as was written above:


I agree - can it even be made to work? What to do if you can't find anything else?
Any suggestions on what to do and perhaps check if it's even flashed for Mac?

I would return the card, or ask for a refund

we did warn you its a bad idea

if you want a good card for your use case just buy one of the many ATI Radeon 9000 Pro Mac GPUs that have been pulled from various MDDs

 

[amedias]

if you want a good card for your use case just buy one of the many ATI Radeon 9000 Pro Mac GPUs that have been pulled from various MDDs

@e5frog

I *might* have one of these kicking about, I've got a small pile of AGP and PCI graphics cards from various G4 Towers in the office at the moment, I just need to sort through them and work out what's actually there!

Would you be interested if it turns out I do have one? not sure how much shipping to Sweden would be but shouldn't be outrageous...

 

[archtopshop]

deleted

 

[swamprock]

<snip>or expensive(before the floodgates opened and I had the chance to buy two Geforce 3s within a week of each other, and paid about $50 each, I flirted with the idea of buying one on Ebay that was up for $100).

You got lucky and found a guy (for one of the cards, at least) who wasn't about profit, but instead, trade

Plus, I got the card at a ridiculous price, like $3, at a recycler. I guess "paying it forward" somewhat applies here as well...

<SNIP>I've never used a 6200(I have a WANG that I bought for Cube use but have never gotten around to flashing) but would be interested to see how that compares...I do have the Quadro equivalent in PCI(a dual DVI card) that I also need to get around to flashing.

Not sure how it'd do in a Cube, but in my old Mystic (DP500 with Sonnet single 1.8ghz) , it was pretty decent. No transparency in Leopard's menu bar, but that was no big deal...

EDIT: disregard. The 6200 causes a boot delay in Leopard unless you remove a specific kext. It does have Core Image support. I got my issues mixed up with the 5200 I initially tried...

 

[LightBulbFun]

You got lucky and found a guy (for one of the cards, at least) who wasn't about profit, but instead, trade

Plus, I got the card at a ridiculous price, like $3, at a recycler. I guess "paying it forward" somewhat applies here as well...



Not sure how it'd do in a Cube, but in my old Mystic (DP500 with Sonnet single 1.8ghz) , it was pretty decent. No transparency in Leopard's menu bar, but that was no big deal...

the GeForce 6200 fully supports core image including the translucent menu bar, infact its the only card to give you full Core image support a G3 BW

you must of been using a GeForce FX 5200

 

[swamprock]

the GeForce 6200 fully supports core image including the translucent menu bar, infact its the only card to give you full Core image support a G3 BW

you must of been using a GeForce FX 5200

No, it was a 6200 that I flashed, but I *did* initially flash a 5200 and used that first. I got my issues mixed up, as I had to remove a kext to stop the 6200 from delaying the bootup time in Leopard. The 5200 was the card that didn’t have full Core Image support. Getting old and forgetful...