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PowerMac G5: World's Fastest Desktop Computer

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Hmmmmmm...

Originally posted by frozenstar
As you know, it's not just about appearance. It's about simplicity and efficiency as well. And in those regards, the new case is astounding.
They've managed to create four compartmentalized thermal zones in a case with a total of nine fans, while still keeping the decibel level below 40db. That is impressive.
And on top of that, they've still been able to retain easy-access to the internal components.
If your professor would have given you a C for designing the Power Mac G5 case, then he shouldn't be teaching industrial design.
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I am VERY aware that it's not all about appearance.
There are right ways to design for those ideals, and there are wrong ways to design for those ideals. This happens to sit somewhere in the middle.

My professor would certainly have given me a C, and he would have been right.

The machine looks like an intermediate step in the design process. It lacks a certain 'finished' feel and it shows. The front of the machine gives it away. Even those who argue that it's 'minimalist' or 'undesigned' will acknowledge that there's something a little off-putting about it. I've been talking with fellow industrial designers about this since the unveiling. Everyone agrees that it's an interesting direction, but it would have benefitted from another round or 2 of revision.

All that being said, it's still a marvelous feat of technology and engineering, etc. But I'll be waiting til Rev. B to get one.... :(
 
The thread is dying so I'll chime after considerable thought.

FIRST: I was wrong in the beginning. I'll admit that. Until the last two weeks, I didn't think we'd really see these machines at WWDC. I was slowly convinced, but I still saw a 25% chance of it not happening. You were right - I was wrong.

The MOST interesting thing to me is that Apple has tipped their hand a bit lately. They announced 3 Ghz in 12 months. That means that the next update will probably be something like a dual 2.5 and the next after that, dual 3's. No more speculation - where's the fun in that?

Same with powerbooks - 970's won't be in them for awhile. No big shocker there.

Chief Complaint: AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth are not included in the top-model. It seems to me that they should be. It's a Pro machine and that's a bit annoying that they're not included in the top machine.

More than one optical drive seems like one of those things that if you don't have two OD's, you don't care. But once you have two - you can't live without them. So I understand the complaints about only one drive. I don't need two, but I can see it's uses.

Case: I like the case - I don't love it (from the pics) but it's nice. The INSIDE couldn't be much sexier. Overall it appears to be a more 'serious' pro machine than the G4's. I imagine that it's even nicer in person.

Cost: Sure sure, it's expensive, but all the accounts I've read indicate that it's an extremely well-manufactured piece of equipment. Quality craftsmanship is expensive. Quality materials aren't cheap either. So, if I get those two things, plus a great machine that looks good, I'm happy.

Speed: I can't wait to play with one in person. I'm happy to see a 2.0 Ghz option simply for the mental barrier of geting past 2.

It will be at least revision C before I get one though. Hopefully, we'll be at 3 before then.

Finally: I expect Apple to continue their "only one DP PM" strategy. THe next round of PMs: dual 2.5, single 2 and single 1.8. Just my hunch. It's annoying, but it forces people who want dual to buy the top (if buying from Apple). You can't be cheap and get today's best tomorrow for less.

Cheers.
 
The new G5 a little to closed for my tastes. A little to little of a machine.

Hi guys;

I have to say after sleeping on this a bit I'm left with the impression that the G5's will not meet most people expectations. They also remind me in a way of my MacPlus many years ago.

One issue is the lack of expandability. No accessible 5.25" slot for what ever type of drive you desire to add and very limited internal drive expansion has me thinking MacPlus all over again. Thankfully they do have expansion via PCI/X. This is not a system that will grow with you over the years, it makes me wonder is the rumors of a workstation machine may be true. I do not see this machine meeting the needs of data intensive professionals.

Another issue that is slowly coming to light is that these machines suck performance wise. I mean it is one thing to bench mark a machine its another to pull the wool over the eyes of the faithful. 6 months ago this could have been considered a state of the art machine, now it appears to be an also ran. The only advantage that apple has with this machine is 64 bit addressing and that will only last a month or two before the 64 bit AMD's hit the user/workstation market. Apple blew big time to with only 8GB of addressable memory, shades of the MacPlus again.

The things that continue to impress me, that came out of WWDC, are not G5 related. The pricing on this Apple hardware is just outrageous, I have to imagine it was designed to milk a much cash as possible from those commited to the platform. Even as impressive as the software line up was it doesn't justify the outlandish amount of dollars being charged for this machine.

I'm really begining to believe that Apple has completely lost contact with the average user in the PC market place. One of the fundamental desires of most users is the need to add storage over time. This can either be removable technology or internal disk storage, on either account this machine agian brings back the horrors of the MacPlus. Before I will consider making this machine mine Apple will have to address these issues.

Dave
 
wizard-

Of course you're not happy. Nothing Apple could do would make you happy.

Expandability-
External expansion is fast overtaking internal expansion as the preferred means of adding storage to machines for many reasons. Performance on Firewire HDDs is equivalent to that of internals, and the portability aspect makes them much more attractive. Apple has seen this and is pushing forward on this front. I'm sorry 500GB is not enough internal storage for you.

64-bit desktops-
Until the actual machine is released and can be compared against whatever is available on the x86 side, performance is a moot point. Saying the G5s "suck performance wise" is nothing but inflammatory.

Also, until RAM is readily (and cheaply) available in sticks larger than 1GB, it's a pipe-dream to expect 16GB, 32GB, etc. memory addressing in a desktop computer.

Pricing-
Apple continues to drop the prices on its entire product line. The price they are asking for the performance you get is fantastic. I challenge you to spec out a similarly capable PC and then we can compare notes on price/performance.

In short, I find your analysis to be ill-founded and off-target.
 
Hmmmm and again I say Hmmmmm

r.e. Wizard's post:

Sorry, mate; although you make some valid points, I generally have to disagree. I'm right behind Rower_CPU on this one (but not in a smutty way, clearly).

If you'd asked me for a G5 wish list, this would pretty much be it. It's a superbly engineered, 'eyecatching' case (I think it'll need to be seen in the mesh (as it were) to get full plaudits), and *well priced*.

I'm not joking. I've yet to switch, but this will probably do it for me (once it's been out a while and we've had some feedback). As I mentioned earlier (aeons ago somewhere near the middle of this thread), doing a price comparison with an Armari dual 3.06 Gig workstation is most revealing (and Armari are an *excellent* computer engineering company).

The dual 2.0 Gig Apple comes in about £700 cheaper.

Even if it only achieves performance parity with the Xeon (which seems on the conservative side currently) then that's pretty damn impressive.

Marry this kind of design/performance/price package to OS X and I think we have a winner?

Then again, I almost went for Betamax, so...

Brother Mugga
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Expandability-
External expansion is fast overtaking internal expansion as the preferred means of adding storage to machines for many reasons. Performance on Firewire HDDs is equivalent to that of internals, and the portability aspect makes them much more attractive. Apple has seen this and is pushing forward on this front. I'm sorry 500GB is not enough internal storage for you.
Click to expand...

Not to beat a dead horse but 250gig of IDE storage is not enough for many users that make up oneof Apple's key markets (video/film post). I say 250gigs because saving/running media files off the same HDD that has yer OS and programs on it tanks your performance and makes editing almost impossible. So you are left w/one 250gig IDE drive. Which will probably work well for some DV only users but it will force many more to use external drives. Which are almost as reliable as internal drives but not quite yet (try and find external FW drives certifed for use w/FCP).

Of course the vast majority of the industry works w/uncompressed media which requires SCSI HDDs. And there is no way 1 SCSI HDD is going to give you enough storage space which means external storage is now a requirement for the G5.

I was just rather surprised that Apple would release a pro machine w/such limited expandibility. Again, not a show stopping issue, I'd order a G5 right now if I had the money, but it is a bit annoying and I hope they add some expandibility in the next rev (more i/o ports) and some more internal room in the next case design.


Lethal
 
Re: Hmmmm and again I say Hmmmmm

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
[
Then again, I almost went for Betamax, so...
Click to expand...

So in the past you chose an inferior, but better marketed product (VHS)? And you are currently a windows user? Do you see a trend here? ;)


Lethal
 
Re: IBM's $3B Fabrication Facility

Originally posted by danhaupt
What else is IBM going to do with this factory to justify its cost besides making chips for Apple? Do they sell enough servers to justify it? Will they be able to sell PPC chips to PC makers like Dell?
Click to expand...


In addition to making chips for IBM servers and for Apple, IBM makes chips for many other leading companies including Qualcomm, Nintendo, Cisco, Nvidia, Xilinx, Analog Devices and others. In addition, IBM is the world's largest supplier of ASICs (application specific integrated circuits).

We make chips at our fabs in Burlington Vermont and East Fishkill NY. East Fishkill is the new 300 mm facility.

At the same time, we are doing joint development work on the Cell processor with Sony and Toshiba. Cell is a future processor for a variety of broadband applications.
 
Is it just me or does MacRumors chat not work any more? (sorry to get off topic....whatever you guys were talking about):D
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Not to beat a dead horse but 250gig of IDE storage is not enough for many users that make up oneof Apple's key markets (video/film post). I say 250gigs because saving/running media files off the same HDD that has yer OS and programs on it tanks your performance and makes editing almost impossible. So you are left w/one 250gig IDE drive. Which will probably work well for some DV only users but it will force many more to use external drives. Which are almost as reliable as internal drives but not quite yet (try and find external FW drives certifed for use w/FCP).

Of course the vast majority of the industry works w/uncompressed media which requires SCSI HDDs. And there is no way 1 SCSI HDD is going to give you enough storage space which means external storage is now a requirement for the G5.

I was just rather surprised that Apple would release a pro machine w/such limited expandibility. Again, not a show stopping issue, I'd order a G5 right now if I had the money, but it is a bit annoying and I hope they add some expandibility in the next rev (more i/o ports) and some more internal room in the next case design.


Lethal
Click to expand...

If you need storage like that then you can get a Fibre channel card, or connect via gigabit ethernet to a NAS or other RAID device. If you need more than 500GB of internal storage, you will have the means to access some sort of external storage solution.

I think it ultimately comes down to the space in the machine and possibly limitations in the new Hypertransport I/O controller for the SATA drives. I sincerely doubt that Apple is limiting the number of drives for an arbitrary reason.
 
Re: I'm not a fan of the new case design

Originally posted by macgraphicgirl
... mainly because it's not all that new. Not terribly innovative by any stretch. Looks like something out of an early 90's rack system. Maybe the G5 looks better up close, I don't know. Looking at it, I have this feeling that I've just been given a luscious steak dinner presented to me on a garbage can lid. I mean, all that innovation and total coolness inside that box!! I'm disappointed that they couldn't come up with a better case design than that -- and to throw away the hinged side just seems like a big backwards step. Based on the deafening silence in the room when they finally showed the photo of the new G5, I'm guessing I wasn't alone.

Do you think that perhaps this might be just the phase-one design, the way they did with the original beige G4? Perhaps another design is coming?

JMHO, please don't shoot me. :)
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yeah, i totally agree with you, but i've been ranting about it all day, so i'll leave it at that. :) i'll have my fingers crossed for rev.b
 
Okay, it's a fair cop.

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
So in the past you chose an inferior, but better marketed product (VHS)? And you are currently a windows user? Do you see a trend here? ;)

Lethal
Click to expand...


Okay, that's fair enough (and quite amusing, to be honest).

BUT in my defence:

1) My big brother overuled me on the VHS thing...which seems to be a big brothers' function in life (gits)

and

2) I ALMOST got a Mac, but was living with a mate who had one in the dark days of the mid-1990s (I used to play Marathon on it, in fact) and I wasn't inspired...particularly when reading his MacUser and MacWorld magazines which seemed to be brimming with stories of woe, pessimism, and, if memory serves, exploding laptops (? - or did I dream that?). So, given that I was also broke, I went with the advice of our college IT officer and got a PC.

I should have known not to trust him when he stuck me with a second hand copy of 'Hexen II' - evil swine.

Anyway, I'll be converting to the Light Side soon (all praise to Mac OS X, stability be thy name) and pretending all those years of wanting to chuck my PC (rather ironically) through the window were just a 'Dallasesque' dream...

Brother Mugga
 
Hey!

Originally posted by jbomber
yeah, i totally agree with you, but i've been ranting about it all day, so i'll leave it at that. :) i'll have my fingers crossed for rev.b
Click to expand...

Hi again.

Sorry, but I forgot to say that I found the final 'broke its ugly neck' in your previous post outstanding.

Anyway, although I'm clearly more drawn to the current design than you, I do agree that rev. b might be quite interesting. As several more informed commentators than I have observed, the case is somewhat 'over'designed - as if it's got the facility for much further 'fiddling' (sorry for the technical jargon - I always like to wow with my comprehensive grasp of nomenclature).

So maybe we'll BOTH be grinning over the next rev?

Brother Mugga
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
If you need storage like that then you can get a Fibre channel card, or connect via gigabit ethernet to a NAS or other RAID device. If you need more than 500GB of internal storage, you will have the means to access some sort of external storage solution.

I think it ultimately comes down to the space in the machine and possibly limitations in the new Hypertransport I/O controller for the SATA drives. I sincerely doubt that Apple is limiting the number of drives for an arbitrary reason.
Click to expand...

I'm totally aware of the variety of external storage options. My point was that external storage is now a requirement and, in case of external FW drives, they are not as reliable (in terms of real world performance) as internal drives. And I'm worried that a few years down the road this version of the G5 will not have the legs older Macs have had because of it's relatively slim expandability options.


Lethal
 
Originally posted by anonymous161
I have a question: Does anyone know what the internals of the single proc. G5s will look like? What I mean is, the Dual 2 gig model has two big G5 heatsinks with two big fans infront and two big fans behind, will the single proc models have only one heatsink but keep the 4 fans? Or will the single proc models only have 2 fans? Will the heatsink be centered on the board? I was just curious.
Click to expand...

Dunno. Since no one has seen any single proc G5 PowerMacs yet. I would bet that it would be just the same heatsink, and maybe the same 4 fans.

Doubt the single proc models will have a centered heatsink on the board. That would mean a different heatsink than for the duals. Don't make sense to stock different things if you don't really really have to.
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Pricing-
Apple continues to drop the prices on its entire product line. The price they are asking for the performance you get is fantastic. I challenge you to spec out a similarly capable PC and then we can compare notes on price/performance.
[/B]
Click to expand...

The top end dual 2 ghz is worth the money, agreed. Yet, 2,000 and 2,400 for the 1.6 and 1.8 is too expensive. Just MHO. :cool:
 
when i first saw the g5 case.. i wasnt sure if i liked it.
but once i heard about the 9 comp controlled fans i totally understood the reasoning..


and as ive seen more and more pictures of it and components inside and the layout and how things are so well thought out.

i love it.

i do sorta wish there was a small apple logo on the front tho

in regards to the whole benchmark fiasco.
i honestly dont care if the dual 2ghz g5 is the fastest desktop available. because even if it is it will be short lived as is everything in the computer world.

the old Powermac g4 dual 1.42 towers are quick! and more then enough for me and anyone i can think of.

if the new dual 2ghz tower is twice as fast as the dual 1.42 well
thats frick'n amazing! and id be crazy not to want one.
and im planning on getting one.. once they are available.


i believe that apple makes products that have a quality thats unmatched and such careful consideration in regards to what users actually want.

you know when it tuned the year 2000 and everyone was like.. oooh.. so where are the hover cars? and futuristic toys.

well apple is one of the few companies that i can think of that makes me think wow this is cool stuff that i wouldnt of thought could be possible.

apple is a great company and i will be very happy to switch once i can save enough money (worth every penny).

im a pc user now.
but not much longer
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I'm totally aware of the variety of external storage options. My point was that external storage is now a requirement and, in case of external FW drives, they are not as reliable (in terms of real world performance) as internal drives. And I'm worried that a few years down the road this version of the G5 will not have the legs older Macs have had because of it's relatively slim expandability options.


Lethal
Click to expand...

Agreed. But how do you see Apple addressing this with the current case design?
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Agreed. But how do you see Apple addressing this with the current case design?
Click to expand...

Like I said before...

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
...I hope they add some expandibility in the next rev (more i/o ports) and some more internal room in the next case design.
Click to expand...

;)


Lethal
 
Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Pricing-
Apple continues to drop the prices on its entire product line. The price they are asking for the performance you get is fantastic. I challenge you to spec out a similarly capable PC and then we can compare notes on price/performance.
Click to expand...


I guess you and I are the only ones that remember that Apples PowerMac lineup in August last year was $300-$400 more expensive on every model. I got my Dual/GHz/DDR PowerMac last August on an education discount and I dropped the ATI9000 in favor of the G4MX to save $100 and I still paid $2500 for it. The current PowerMacs are a steal and are definitely in line as far as I have been able to see with any other machine on the planet.

Also I don't see how anyone can criticize speed yet. Screw all the benchmarks I hate benchmarks anyhow they never tell me how well the machine is going to performe in the apps I want to run anyhow and all companies have a way of fudging them in their favor. All I want to see is impartial testing of real world Apps side by side. If the results of the real world tests are like what Apple presented a the WWDC then there is little doubt that this baby is a serious burner it destroyed the XEON in every real world app test no fudging at all.
 
Re: Re: I'm not a fan of the new case design

Originally posted by jbomber
yeah, i totally agree with you, but i've been ranting about it all day, so i'll leave it at that. :) i'll have my fingers crossed for rev.b
Click to expand...

it's totally totally beautiful and cool. you guys are philistines :D

this is why US companies hire European designers (and especially Brits from the immense pool of talent in London) to give them the edge.
 
Re: Re: Re: I'm not a fan of the new case design

Originally posted by sinclairZX81
it's totally totally beautiful and cool. you guys are philistines :D

this is why US companies hire European designers (and especially Brits from the immense pool of talent in London) to give them the edge.
Click to expand...

I thought it was very ugly too when I first saw the keynote also when I first saw photos at Apples website. When I saw the photos from people at the WWDC with their own cameras I was shocked the thing is gorgeous. This is really one you have to see real photos of also I think I'll probably have to clean my pants when I see it in person.
 
Ars

Guv said:

"sorry 2 break ur hearts"

Yeah, this has been posted a few times previously (easy to miss, though, given the length of this thread...).

Although some people have gone a bit loopy about it (check out his amusing replies to some fanatic-nutters who have flame-mailed him), I think he's raised some fairly valid points. As I said earlier, you'd have to be slightly naive to think that Apple (or indeed any vendor) wouldn't pick benchmarks that made them look good. Apple seem to have been fairer than most, though.

For a more balanced view (and a better perspecive on the validity of benchmarks full-stop) I recommend popping over to Ars Technica:

http://www.arstechnica.com/

(go to bottom of page for comments on the G5 benchmarks)

and

http://arstechnica.com/cpu/2q99/benchmarking-1.html

(for general comments on benchmarking)

Cheers

Brother Mugga
 
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