PowerMac G5: World's Fastest Desktop Computer

[job]

Originally posted by guv
http://www.haxial.com/spls-soapbox/apple-powermac-G5/

sorry 2 break ur hearts

from the site:

World's First 64-bit Processor in a PC?

Apple also claims that the G5 is the world's first PC with a 64-bit processor (the exact claim is, "The Power Mac G5 is the world's fastest personal computer and the first with a 64-bit processor").
However, according to AMD's 22 April 2003 press release, AMD introduced the AMD Opteron processor, which is a 64-bit processor. That is 2 months earlier than Apple's announcement of the G5.

Also, the Sun SPARC computers, which have been around for years, had 64-bit processors, although Apple would say that they are not "personal computers", despite the fact that you can buy an old one very cheaply.

isn't this guy comparing the g5, a desktop, consumer chip to high end server/enterprise chips? last time i checked, SPARC workstations were not meant as 'personal computers." it doesn't matter how cheap they currently are. they were not and are not designed as "personal," consumer focused machines.

the g5 is a desktop personal computer with a professional target audience. the g5s are a hybrid between a dedicated workstation and a powerful desktop. show me a similar pro-sumer wintel box that can run mathematica, photoshop, and other real world apps that fast.

 

[gezzas525]

Oh yeah the BOXX machines STARTED SHIPPING june 4th, Apple I doubt they will be shipping by August, I say anywhere between september and christmass, look what happened with the Powerbook 17 ???

BOXX will have systems running at the AMDZone.com LAN party so if anyone wants to see the power this baby can pack come along.

you mac guys cant seem to dicern the difference between a workstation and a desktop.

one more thing HOW CAN YOU HAVE A 64-BIT MACHINE WITHOUT A 64-BIT OS TO GO WITH IT WHEN IT SHIPS DUH AND CLAIM YOU HAVE THE WORLDS 1ST 64-BIT MACHINE ???

PANTHER IS DUE CHRISTMASS where as when the AMD 64 ships it will have several 64-BIT OS's and not to mention UT2003 !!!

therefore AMD 64 WILL BE THE 1ST 64-BIT DESKTOP NOT THE G5.


KLEOS

 

[gezzas525]

the DUAL 1.8GHZ OPTERON is faster like below in EXACTLY THE SAME TESTS USING THE SAME COMPILER, WELL HERE YOU GO LADIES AND GENTLEMAN.

Test Apple G5 2GHz VS AMD Opteron 244 (1.8GHz)

Opteron % faster than G5

SPECfp_rate_base2000 57%
SPEComt_rate_base2000 45%
SPECfp_base2000 34%
SPECint_base2000 37%


Yet Apple has the bulls to say it has the fastest machine???



KLEOS

 

[Rower_CPU]

gezzas525-

You've been warned before, this is your last chance. Stop the double (plus) posts and caps.

 

[jbomber]

Re: Re: Re: I'm not a fan of the new case design

Originally posted by sinclairZX81
it's totally totally beautiful and cool. you guys are philistines

this is why US companies hire European designers (and especially Brits from the immense pool of talent in London) to give them the edge.

personally i prefer 'unwashed heathen' but whatever....

yeah, the Brit designers are very very good, but most of the ones I've spoken to aren't really feeling the 'electric cheese grater' either.


The NEW PowerMac G5:

It slices!
It dices!
It makes julienne fries, 3 different ways!

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
Opteron % faster than G5

SPECfp_rate_base2000 57%
SPEComt_rate_base2000 45%
SPECfp_base2000 34%
SPECint_base2000 37%

now i'm confused. is the opteron a desktop, consumer focused chip? or is it a server chip? the g5 is still a consumer chip, even though it's target audience is the high end digital video/audio and graphics market.

also, how much does this opteron box cost?

and just writing apparently random % figures next to benchmark apps is fairly meaningless unless you have some way of backing them up.

on a related topic, i've never seen so many wintel users getting so ticked off. the mac platform is back in contention...and i think a certain user base is scared s**tless.

 

[Cubeboy]

Originally posted by job
now i'm confused. is the opteron a desktop, consumer focused chip? or is it a server chip? the g5 is still a consumer chip, even though it's target audience is the high end digital video/audio and graphics market.

also, how much does this opteron box cost?

and just writing apparently random % figures next to benchmark apps is fairly meaningless unless you have some way of backing them up.

on a related topic, i've never seen so many wintel users getting so ticked off. the mac platform is back in contention...and i think a certain user base is scared s**tless.

The Opteron is an server and workstation chip so I suppose they can be considered a different class from the G5. However, since the dual G5 Powermac being compared is going to be used for the same kinds of tasks as an PC workstation, the comparison is to some degree valid. Not sure about price but it should be around the same range for a midrange Opteron system.

I believe I posted GCC and ICC compiled SPEC scores for the Opteron on one of the previous pages.

AMD's K7/K8 based chips have been known to handle poorly coded/poorly optimized compilers (and programming in general for that matter) better than Intel's chips especially the Pentium 4.

 

[gezzas525]

Heres your proof


http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/...com/2003/06_jun/editorials/cw_editorial79.htm[/url]


You want more proof go to to AMDZOne Lan party they will have BOXX machines there in the flesh unlike apple.


Kleos

 

[job]

the BOXX machine is a workstation and is being marketed as such.

the g5 is a pro-sumer focused desktop with heavy emphasis on the 'pro' designation. the g5 is the first consumer desktop with a 64-bit chip.

will your average joe windows users buy a dual opteron box? probably not. will your average mac user pick up a g5 (if financially viable?) you bet. the g5, even though it has the raw power of a workstation, is the top end consumer platform offered by apple. apple's enterprise offerings are obviously different, as seen by the xserve and xraid.

and to quote from the site:

If you have an 8x AGP Pro graphics subsystem, dual processors, every kind of I/O available, fast disks and 8 gigs of RAM, and it's still not a workstation

i wonder what the author thinks of the alienware towers? are those workstations, even though they are marketed as high end game boxes?

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
You want more proof go to to AMDZOne Lan party they will have BOXX machines there in the flesh unlike apple.

hmmm...i seem to remember dual 2Ghz towers available to play with at WWDC.

obviously not to buy, but nevertheless, the g5 is no longer 'vaporware.'

 

[job]

and at the risk of continuing this anal debate:

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.phps=&threadid=3066

the author of the above thread makes a very valid point.

 

[gezzas525]

yeah OK, then think about this how can you have the first destop 64-bit machine when YOU DONOT have a 64-bit operationg system hello!!! these MUST go hand in hand to have a 64-BIT platform !!!

1) Apple DOESNOT have a 64-bit OS (Chritmass at best) therefore no 64-bit platform.

2) AMD has Madrake 64, SUSE 64 and Redhat 64 all of which have been released.

3) Win2003 will be released as far as Iam aware on the launch date for AMD64 in late august early september. Therefore AMD will be first with a 64-bit desktop platform with Apple at least 3 months away.


Think about it.

Kleos

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
yeah OK, then think about this how can you have the first destop 64-bit machine when YOU DONOT have a 64-bit operationg system hello!!! these MUST go hand in hand to have a 64-BIT platform !!!

apple never claimed to have the first 64-bit 'platform.' apple claimed to have the first desktop 64-bit personal computer, a claim which is valid as the assertion deals with the hardware only. it has a 64-bit chip. it is the first 64-bit consumer desktop machine. period.

SPARC workstations don't count. opterons and any other x86-64 chips don't count. 64 bit linux doesn't count.

you know why?

they are not consumer products. they are server/workstation/enterprise products at the very least. apple has provided the first viable 64-bit consumer desktop hardware with the os to follow.

1) Apple DOESNOT have a 64-bit OS (Chritmass at best) therefore no 64-bit platform.

so what? apple asserted that it is

the first [personal computer] with a 64-bit processor

apple's claim deals with the hardware only. apple never claimed to have the first 64-bit platform. linux and SPARC, SGi and Sun workstations already did that. apple does have the first 64 bit consumer chip though.

2) AMD has Madrake 64, SUSE 64 and Redhat 64 all of which have been released.

see above. apple never claimed to have the first 64-bit platform and thus this entire assertion is invalid and irrelavent to the debate at hand.

3) Win2003 will be released as far as Iam aware on the launch date for AMD64 in late august early september. Therefore AMD will be first with a 64-bit desktop platform with Apple at least 3 months away.

is this for consumers, or is it for the enterprise market? and will windows 2003 keep compatability with all the older x86 apps? i seem to recall that this is an issue with the x86-64 platform.

 

[gezzas525]

I wasnt specifically refering to Win 2003, I meant the consumer version, not sure what name they will give to it yet.

Its Probably gona be XP 64-bit edition


Yeah what is the point in having 64-bit hardware released with a 64-bit OS 6 months down the line?

Apple released the G5, is its 64-bit side usefull now, NO ABSOLOUTLY NOT!! and then they can still say they have the fastest destop computer?

KLEOS

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
who says the machines were running at 2GZ ?
Apple ?

IBM? or are they not 'reliable' either?

If Apple said they were running at 5GHz you would still go along with that anyway.

you go along with the speeds given by intel and amd right? why do you have any reason to doubt the speeds? because it's apple?

We have this cheating debate about the G5 and you say Apple says the machines at WWDC were running at 2GHZ. Who knows maybe they were maybe they werent.

sure and maybe the world is really flat and we never really went to the moon.

get real.

 

[gezzas525]

I know my machines are running at there stated speed CPUID anyone or I can use an CRO and measure it manualy if i have to.


KLEOS

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
Apple released the G5, is its 64-bit side usefull now, NO ABSOLOUTLY NOT!! and then they can still say they have the fastest destop computer?

do you realize that 64-bitness only provides an advantage when dealing with more than 2GB of physical memory?

re fastest desktop computer: show me a wintel or amd box without over clocking that has a front side bus of 1Ghz.

 

[gezzas525]

OPTERON?

THE FSB runs at the processor frequency in case of the 1.8 its running at 1.8Ghz, yes thats right !! The memory controller is on the CPU and is running at the same speed !! Now thats engineering for you.

KLEOS

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
I know my machines are running at there stated speed CPUID anyone or I can use an CRO and measure it manualy if i have to.

great. i can download freeware, independent apps which can determine the clockspeed of my cpu.

i can open up the apple system profiler on any macintosh and see the cpu speed myself.

to claim that apple doesn't really have 2ghz chips from IBM is asinine and borders on paranoid.

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
OPTERON?

THE FSB runs at the processor frequency in case of the 1.8 its running at 1.8Ghz, yes thats right !! The memory controller is on the CPU and is running at the same speed !! Now thats engineering for you.

KLEOS

one question: is it a consumer chip?

whats that...it's not?

the g5 is. it is the fastest commerically available consumer desktop chip.

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
well the AMD 64 is a consumer chip and will have a 64-bit windows OS accompanying it while the G5 will be waiting till christmass if not longer...................

so when is the athlon-64 supposed to ship? certainly not by august.

There is no point declaring you have 64-bit hardware when you cant use it.

so what pray tell, do you think 64-bit addressing is going to bring to the consumer computer market? i don't see the average windows user getting all excited about the prospect of 64-bit desktop computing in the near future. apple certainly is using the 64-bitness of the g5 to generate a lot of market excitement, but that isn't what makes the g5 fast.

the g5 is fast because, well, it simply is, 64-bit or not.

[sarcasm]oh, and to anyone out there, can someone please remind me what i'm debating here? i seem to have forgotten the original point of this redundant debate.[/sarcasm]

 

[potterfast]

Speed to Price Comparisons

One must think about how people look at market share and benchmarks. They are misnomers of quality.

Let's take two comparable cars: The Honda Accord EX and the Volvo S60 AWD.

Both have 4 tires, radio, a steering wheel, headlights and a motor that gets you to 60mph in about 7 and a half seconds.

But comparing these two people movers is akin to comparing two personal computers.

The Honda Accord is certainly clean, presentable, dependable but does it match the fit, finish and innovation of an all wheel drive Volvo S60? Of course not. Volvo also sells a minuscule fraction of the volume sold by Honda. Volvo is an automotive innovator, especially in regards to safety. Honda copies technology and then does it very well. Volvo also prides themselves on fit and finish. Honda just makes a good quality car that doesn't offend.

The Macintosh does arguably perform faster than a comparable Wintel machine, at least for the moment, but that is only one piece of the equation. And as far as marketshare of 2%, that is a false indicator of quality too.

Apple is quality. Wintel is quantity.

Apple is innovation. Wintel is replication.

--------------------------------------------------
"Put that in your pipe and smoke it."

 

[Frohickey]

Originally posted by gezzas525
who says the machines were running at 2GZ ?
Apple ?

If Apple said they were running at 5GHz you would still go along with that anyway.

We have this cheating debate about the G5 and you say Apple says the machines at WWDC were running at 2GHZ. Who knows maybe they were maybe they werent.

KLEOS

And you believe that the internal clock speed of the Intel or AMD chips are as advertised? How do you know that they are not lying? Have you independently verified that the clock speed is as advertised, or are you just going to take Intel's word for it?

You need to be consistent if you are going to start along this path. If you do not believe that the internal clock rate on the chip in the new G5 PowerMacs are going at 2GHz, then, you should be the same way with the internal clock rate on the chips that Intel/AMD sells. Its not like there is a tachometer attached to every single processor.

And that is all clock speeds measure. Its like the RPMs of a motor. If you believe that high RPM is king, then you also believe that the 6500RPM Honda Civic motor have more horsepower than the 5200RPM Chevrolet Corvette motor.

This G5 benchmark debate is healthy if it encourages the full disclosure of the testing methodology, and it seems to me that Apple has been open and forthcoming with the details. What is not healthy is when you start disbelieving it because the benchmarks were disputed to begin with.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

[job]

Originally posted by gezzas525
Of coarse it is, YEAH let Apple manipulate the benchmarks OK.

KLEOS

to quote another member on these forums:

[Because]SPEC scores are 100% dependant on the compiler used the data from Apple and AMD cannot be compared.

AMD and Intel use the ICC compiler whereas Apple used GCC for its test as it is the only cross platform compiler. Its is a UNIX compiler that is not native to the PPC.

As you might recall, Apple ran the test on Linux on the Xeon, so GCC was the best compiler to use and disabling Hyperthreading actually increased the Xeon performance per DELL
http://www.dell.com/us/en/esg/topics/power_ps3q02-khalid.htm

IBM has run some SPEC on its processors using another complier not mentioned (but I suspect it was Visual Age) and it scores the following at 1.8 GHz

Submitter: IBM
CPU: PPC 970 1.8 GHz
Compiler: Visual Age?
SPECint Base: 937
SPECfp Base: 1051

these benchmarks are certainly subjective.

but i have yet to see a wintel or amd box that can run mathematica 5 or photoshop that fast.

 

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by gezzas525
I dont believe Apple sorry, they now have a reputation for cheating in benchmarks and if you have been aware lately (NVIDIA/ATI DRIVER CHEATING in QUAKE/3dMARK etc) it does not get forgotten easily and gives the manufacturer a bad reputation.


KLEOS

So you're telling me that Dell, Intel, Compaq, AMD and everyone else has never once used a very specifically optimized compiler to show that there system was the fastest? Give me a break benchmarks are in and of themselves lies there is no such thing as a system to system or even a cpu to cpu fair benchmark. You have to compare applications to applications. Such as render speed etc. We'll see how things match up with the G4 is in the publics hands. As it is there have been people at the WWDC running App tests of there own. If you don't believe me do a google search I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Also so where is this 64bit Win OS coming from? Last I heard Microsoft said they had no plans on a consumer 64bit OS. Also the next consumer OS from Microsoft is Longhorn and isn't due to ship until late 2005.