PPC and Leopard as Daily Driver

[bunnspecial]

The only card truly terrible in Leopard is the Rage 128, both due to the fact that it doesn't even support Quartz Extreme and also that Leopard doesn't include any kexts for it.

Personally, I'll take a Geforce 4Ti(no CI) over a Mac Edition FX5200(CI) in Leopard any day.

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

I was a daily PPC user until the very beginning of 2016 or so! My final PPC machine was an original PowerMac G5 dual 2.0GHz. (My only proper Intel Mac was a 2009 MacBook Pro, which I didn't use much because it wasn't a desktop.) Since 2013 or so, it has become much harder to browse the Web on a PPC Mac. You'd need a PowerMac G5 (dual or quad CPU/core) for a barely comfortable browsing experience.

Your eMac is on the slow side, so it really won't be good at Web-browsing. You would be better off using it for everything BUT Web-browsing (save for the occasional Google search or something of that sort).

 

[Dronecatcher]

To @MacSoftware3 read the guide about Core Image and graphics duties under Leopard here:

http://guides.macrumors.com/Core_Image

and decide for yourself if I was trying to help you or feed you false information.

 

[amagichnich]

You'd need a PowerMac G5 (dual or quad CPU/core) for a barely comfortable browsing experience.

I can't agree with that! Such statements should include an 'IMHO' or something alike. My iBook serves as my breakfast device on which I read several newspapers, browse this forum and many other sites. Recently I optimized umatrix to my needs and now it is a pretty fast browsing experience (T4F, bluhell firewall, umatrix on an iBook G4 1.33).
But that is my opinion, based on my experiences and needs. This may vary from person to person. Especially the word 'comfortable' is misplaced.
No offense, but we all have to think carefully about what we say here to newbies
[doublepost=1498648553][/doublepost]

To @MacSoftware3 read the guide about Core Image and graphics duties under Leopard here:

http://guides.macrumors.com/Core_Image

and decide for yourself if I was trying to help you or feed you false information.

Not exactly false information in the means of 'fake news' But if the list of compatible devices is complete (only ma PB is on it) than CI can't be that important because I use(d) Leopard on all of my Macs without real problems. I switched to Jaguar on the 1Ghz eMac for fun but the others run Leopard. I don't see any difference between them and the PB except for maybe the dashboard ripple (dashboard is disabled so I can't confirm that)

 

[0248294]

To @MacSoftware3 read the guide about Core Image and graphics duties under Leopard here:

http://guides.macrumors.com/Core_Image

and decide for yourself if I was trying to help you or feed you false information.

I'm not quite sure why I deserve the level of snarkiness you've thrown my and @LightBulbFun's way after we politely stated that CI is not required for Leopard. The article only emboldens this, since it specifically mentions there is CPU fallback in the case of a lack of CI, and that the system will still be able to run fine, thus your argument of it being a requirement is null and void. I really, really don't appreciate your tone, and the fact that you can't seem to accept that you're wrong.

 

[Dronecatcher]

I really, really don't appreciate your tone, and the fact that you can't seem to accept that you're wrong.

I've already stated I'm wrong and you're right regarding lack of Apple requirement documentation.
I'll stand by my advice given based on what I've read and personally experienced on sub Leopard hardware.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I've already stated I'm wrong and you're right regarding lack of Apple requirement documentation.
I'll stand by my advice given based on what I've read and personally experienced on sub Leopard hardware.

while GPU shopping we recommend you pick up a GPU that supports Core image to make things run *smoother*

its by no means a Requirement to run leopard well (otherwise why are there non core image macs in apples supported list? Apples requirements simply state 512MB of RAM and a 867Mhz or faster G4)

also we never argued about running leopard on Sub 867Mhz hardware we simply argued your point of OS X Leopard "requiring" a Core image GPU

I can always argue that point too if you wish me too.... (I have an iMac G3 running 10.5.8 Nicely LOL)

 

[eyoungren]

I can't agree with that! Such statements should include an 'IMHO' or something alike. My iBook serves as my breakfast device on which I read several newspapers, browse this forum and many other sites. Recently I optimized umatrix to my needs and now it is a pretty fast browsing experience (T4F, bluhell firewall, umatrix on an iBook G4 1.33).
But that is my opinion, based on my experiences and needs. This may vary from person to person. Especially the word 'comfortable' is misplaced.
No offense, but we all have to think carefully about what we say here to newbies

I agree. Just glad someone other than me said it.

@PowerMac G4 MDD has been around here long enough to have heard all my arguments and be aware of my hardware/software and my workflows. At this point it's probably just background noise. But someone else making the same point…who knows?

 

[redheeler]

I was a daily PPC user until the very beginning of 2016 or so! My final PPC machine was an original PowerMac G5 dual 2.0GHz. (My only proper Intel Mac was a 2009 MacBook Pro, which I didn't use much because it wasn't a desktop.) Since 2013 or so, it has become much harder to browse the Web on a PPC Mac. You'd need a PowerMac G5 (dual or quad CPU/core) for a barely comfortable browsing experience.

Your eMac is on the slow side, so it really won't be good at Web-browsing. You would be better off using it for everything BUT Web-browsing (save for the occasional Google search or something of that sort).

If you're referring to browsing without optimizations, then I pretty much agree, you need a decent amount of patience to browse on a single G4 1.33 GHz, let alone a 700 MHz.

But, there are ways to speed up your experience; for example, I installed NoScript in TenFourFox on my 12" iBook G4 and that sped up browsing quite a bit. (It's true that some websites won't function properly without JavaScript enabled, and you'll end up having to whitelist some scripts on a case-by-case basis, while blocking others that aren't needed such as ad scripts.)

 

[AmazingHenry]

I may be a bit late to this, but here's my answer. It might get pretty long.

You can absolutely use your eMac as a daily driver! On a 73MHz, Tiger is the general reccommendation as others have said. It'll run the TenFourFox browser just fine, along with other software. With TenFourFox, you're going to want to use @eyoungren's tweaks. See his thread which is at the top of this forum. Also, a mobile user agent is much needed for some sites on a Mac of this speed, as others have said.

As for other software on Tiger, use the PPCAppStore (ppcappstore.wordpress.com). It detects which OS you're running and it will let you download tons of applications compatible with Tiger. On Leopard, should you choose to run that (although I strongly advise against it), the Store will let you download the Leopard versions.

You'll also want to do a few speed tweaks. The two that make the most difference are disabling Spotlight and Dashboard, assuming you don't use them. If you do, it won't hurt too much to leave them enabled. A tweak I always use is enabling something called QuartzGL, which helps with the graphics in some areas. There's a Terminal command for it:
sudo defaults write /Library/Preferences/com.apple.windowserver QuartzGLEnabled -boolean YES
If it doesn't work well and makes some things worse, disable it with the same command, but change the "YES" to "NO".

Hope this helps. The TenFourFox stuff had already been said, but I didn't see anyone mention the PPCAppStore or speed tweaks.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[SuperKerem]

I'm not quite sure why I deserve the level of snarkiness you've thrown my and @LightBulbFun's way after we politely stated that CI is not required for Leopard. The article only emboldens this, since it specifically mentions there is CPU fallback in the case of a lack of CI, and that the system will still be able to run fine, thus your argument of it being a requirement is null and void. I really, really don't appreciate your tone, and the fact that you can't seem to accept that you're wrong.

Wait, he’s the one being snarky?

 

[AmazingHenry]

Wait, he’s the one being snarky?

Agreed

 

[amagichnich]

I can always argue that point too if you wish me too.... (I have an iMac G3 running 10.5.8 Nicely LOL)

And again I'm telling myself 'he must be a wizard, he really must be' just one question: how??

I agree. Just glad someone other than me said it.

I had a great teacher And time and again youre right

 

[0248294]

Wait, he’s the one being snarky?

Yes.

 

[bunnspecial]

And again I'm telling myself 'he must be a wizard, he really must be' just one question: how??

I don't want to answer for him, but I'll just say that heat guns can work miracles

 

[MysticCow]

If you're referring to browsing without optimizations, then I pretty much agree, you need a decent amount of patience to browse on a single G4 1.33 GHz, let alone a 700 MHz.

But, there are ways to speed up your experience; for example, I installed NoScript in TenFourFox on my 12" iBook G4 and that sped up browsing quite a bit. (It's true that some websites won't function properly without JavaScript enabled, and you'll end up having to whitelist some scripts on a case-by-case basis, while blocking others that aren't needed such as ad scripts.)

Or you can run as a mobile browser like we do on Classilla. That alone strips a heavy amount of web junk.

Plus, mobile sites like Twitter are actually pretty decent in TFF. I hope this is the big improvement (a built-in NoScript that can strip the junk) since we're down to Feature Parity rather than Source Parity over there.

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

If you're referring to browsing without optimizations, then I pretty much agree, you need a decent amount of patience to browse on a single G4 1.33 GHz, let alone a 700 MHz.

But, there are ways to speed up your experience; for example, I installed NoScript in TenFourFox on my 12" iBook G4 and that sped up browsing quite a bit. (It's true that some websites won't function properly without JavaScript enabled, and you'll end up having to whitelist some scripts on a case-by-case basis, while blocking others that aren't needed such as ad scripts.)

The problem I have faced is that, even with tweaks, TFF still ends up being slower overall than Leopard Webkit.
[doublepost=1498683595][/doublepost]I don't mean to sound negative, but TenForFox is slow even on my iMac G5. A ~700MHz G4 wouldn't not run TenForFox very comfortably. Unfortunately, though, it's the only up-to-date browser for Tiger. If I were him, I'd just use TFF when it's really needed and use something like OmniWeb or Webkit (non-Leopard version) as a 'quick browsing'-type browser for light stuff. He could also try out the Fox Boxes.
[doublepost=1498683905][/doublepost]

I can't agree with that! Such statements should include an 'IMHO' or something alike. My iBook serves as my breakfast device on which I read several newspapers, browse this forum and many other sites. Recently I optimized umatrix to my needs and now it is a pretty fast browsing experience (T4F, bluhell firewall, umatrix on an iBook G4 1.33).
But that is my opinion, based on my experiences and needs. This may vary from person to person. Especially the word 'comfortable' is misplaced.
No offense, but we all have to think carefully about what we say here to newbies
[doublepost=1498648553][/doublepost]
Not exactly false information in the means of 'fake news' But if the list of compatible devices is complete (only ma PB is on it) than CI can't be that important because I use(d) Leopard on all of my Macs without real problems. I switched to Jaguar on the 1Ghz eMac for fun but the others run Leopard. I don't see any difference between them and the PB except for maybe the dashboard ripple (dashboard is disabled so I can't confirm that)

Like you said, your iBook is your 'breakfast device' - not a daily driver. I, too, can browse on old PPC Macs; I have done so for years. However, as far as daily drivers go, a ~700MHz G4 eMac isn't one. 'Comfortable' is an opinion, but it's not a far-fetched one. Most would agree that the browsing experience on an old PPC Mac is generally very poor these days. In most cases, it can be done, but not ver well.

Those who daily a PowerPC Mac do so with something more powerful, such as a PowerMac G4 or any G5.
[doublepost=1498684321][/doublepost]

I agree. Just glad someone other than me said it.

@PowerMac G4 MDD has been around here long enough to have heard all my arguments and be aware of my hardware/software and my workflows. At this point it's probably just background noise. But someone else making the same point…who knows?

I have an 800MHz iBook G4 on which I used to do light Web-browsing. It could do it, but at a high cost (which is time). I don't mean to say that it cannot be done, but it certainly is not a great experience to daily an original eMac. Your own PowerPC Mac is as powerful as it is for a reason: it's your daily machine. An original eMac is fine for some things - of course - but it's no daily machine (unless one's day includes word-processing and the lightest of Web-browsing). Most daily PPC users are on high-end G4s and G5 PowerMacs. I understand that we shouldn't discourage a newcomer, but I don't wish to convince him that a 2002 eMac would provide the Web experience he's looking for.

 

[eyoungren]

@PowerMac G4 MDD

I do indeed have a few of the more powerful G5s. But, do not forget where I started.

I've run TenFourFox on a TiBook 400 and I've run it on a 17" PowerBook G4 with an L3 cache failure. EVERYTHING I've tweaked has been to wring the absolute best performance I can from T4Fx out of those two baseline Macs because those two were my daily drivers for years.

As to the work G4 and G5 and what constitutes 'slowness', I'll leave that alone for now.

Lastly, I seem to recall a discussion concerning your use of TenFourFox and AdBlock Plus and an unwillingness to remove ABP. More than once I've stated that the use of any ABP addons will drop T4Fx to it's knees like a well placed sucker punch. Those addons have memory leaks and they've never been fixed. I made several suggestions, one of which included BluHell Firewall.

If I have that conversation recalled incorrectly, I apologize - my memory is often faulty.

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

@PowerMac G4 MDD

I do indeed have a few of the more powerful G5s. But, do not forget where I started.

I've run TenFourFox on a TiBook 400 and I've run it on a 17" PowerBook G4 with an L3 cache failure. EVERYTHING I've tweaked has been to wring the absolute best performance I can from T4Fx out of those two baseline Macs because those two were my daily drivers for years.

As to the work G4 and G5 and what constitutes 'slowness', I'll leave that alone for now.

Lastly, I seem to recall a discussion concerning your use of TenFourFox and AdBlocker Plus and an unwillingness to remove ABP. More than once I've stated that the use of any ABP addons will drop T4Fx to it's knees like a well placed sucker punch. Those addons have memory leaks and they've never been fixed. I made several suggestions, one of which included BluHell Firewall.

If I have that conversation recalled incorrectly, I apologize - my memory is often faulty.

Today, however, such machines are a bit too slow for most. Web-browsing is painful. Your Quicksilver can be a daily simply because it's powerful enough. I wouldn't deem an original eMac a very good daily machine; rather, it would be fine as a secondary machine, for tasks which would otherwise be hindered by the distraction of the modern amenities which accompany newer machines.

Oh, no - I don't use ABP on any machine. Even on modern machines, it causes Web pages to take up to 2x longer to load. I use BlueHell for anything Mozilla-based, and I use AdGuard (which is even better than my original alternative, uBlock).

 

[eyoungren]

Today, however, such machines are a bit too slow for most. Web-browsing is painful. Your Quicksilver can be a daily simply because it's powerful enough. I wouldn't deem an original eMac a very good daily machine; rather, it would be fine as a secondary machine, for tasks which would otherwise be hindered by the distraction of the modern amenities which accompany newer machines.

I'm still going to argue that!

But first, to hand you a full box of ammo to use on me as you will, my daily desktop is now a G5 Quad with 16GB ram. So, fire away when you reply.

Back to my argument and stop me (no, don't) if you've heard it before…PowerMac G4/450, 1.75GB ram loaded with Adobe CS4, Acrobat 9, QuarkXPress 8.5, Office 2008 and Suitcase Fusion 2 handled ALL production capabilities for five years at our newspaper. Everything I did on the G5 my coworker did on the G4. It just handled it.

But that's where the argument of what constitues 'slowness' comes in. I acknowledge that it was slower to do it, but it was never unusable.

Oh, no - I don't use ABP on any machine. Even on modern machines, it causes Web pages to take up to 2x longer to load. I use BlueHell for anything Mozilla-based, and I use AdGuard (which is even better than my original alternative, uBlock).

OK. Must have been someone else then. Again, my apologies!

 

[amagichnich]

I don't want to answer for him, but I'll just say that heat guns can work miracles

Get a heat gun, set it to 823°F, aim at the iMac and morse 'osxleopard'?

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

I'm still going to argue that!

But first, to hand you a full box of ammo to use on me as you will, my daily desktop is now a G5 Quad with 16GB ram. So, fire away when you reply.

Back to my argument and stop me (no, don't) if you've heard it before…PowerMac G4/450, 1.75GB ram loaded with Adobe CS4, Acrobat 9, QuarkXPress 8.5, Office 2008 and Suitcase Fusion 2 handled ALL production capabilities for five years at our newspaper. Everything I did on the G5 my coworker did on the G4. It just handled it.

But that's where the argument of what constitues 'slowness' comes in. I acknowledge that it was slower to do it, but it was never unusable.


OK. Must have been someone else then. Again, my apologies!

And I don't consider those PowerMacs unusable - same with the OG eMac; however, the difference between a PowerMac G4 / G5 and an original eMac is that those PowerMacs can easily be daily machines for several, whereas a 2002 eMac would come to a crawl with typical Web-browsing. I'm even here on my iMac G5 and am typing this with a split-second lag time behind each character. If someone is going to daily a 2002 eMac, he will have to keep his expectations very low. He certainly can use creative applications, write papers, play old games, etc.; however, Web-usage will be SLOW. And, by slow, I mean hanging. I am not one of those people who considers 5 seconds to load a page as being slow. It's not just load times but also graphical lag and sometimes even unresponsiveness.

It's not impossible to do things on any machine... heck, a Macintosh SE can be connected to the internet. The eMac can browse, but it is brought to its knees in the process. At that point, it's more worth-it to save the Web tasks for one's phone.

 

[eyoungren]

And I don't consider those PowerMacs unusable - same with the OG eMac; however, the difference between a PowerMac G4 / G5 and an original eMac is that those PowerMacs can easily be daily machines for several, whereas a 2002 eMac would come to a crawl with typical Web-browsing. I'm even here on my iMac G5 and am typing this with a split-second lag time behind each character. If someone is going to daily a 2002 eMac, he will have to keep his expectations very low. He certainly can use creative applications, write papers, play old games, etc.; however, Web-usage will be SLOW. And, by slow, I mean hanging. I am not one of those people who considers 5 seconds to load a page as being slow. It's not just load times but also graphical lag and sometimes even unresponsiveness.

It's not impossible to do things on any machine... heck, a Macintosh SE can be connected to the internet. The eMac can browse, but it is brought to its knees in the process. At that point, it's more worth-it to save the Web tasks for one's phone.

Some things…

1. The G4 I quoted was circa 1999. So, the eMac is much newer than it.
2. Do you have the rich text editor on for this forum site? If so, that's hidden javascript executing ALL the time which can account for the lag in typing. You'll know it's on if you have a text formatting bar in the Quick Reply box.
3. Have you applied my T4Fx tweaks to your iMac (assuming you are using T4Fx).

 

[PowerMac G4 MDD]

Some things…

1. The G4 I quoted was circa 1999. So, the eMac is much newer than it.
2. Do you have the rich text editor on for this forum site? If so, that's hidden javascript executing ALL the time which can account for the lag in typing. You'll know it's on if you have a text formatting bar in the Quick Reply box.
3. Have you applied my T4Fx tweaks to your iMac (assuming you are using T4Fx).

You got me with the first one; although, what year was that? The Web became even heavier for PPC Macs very recently. Also, was it used a lot for Web-browsing or more for local work?

Below is what I see when I type in MacRumors: (Also, I am in TFF right now, and the tweaks have not helped. In fact, the lag I am experiencing is even worse. Everything from loading this page, to typing this, is now slower.

 

[eyoungren]

You got me with the first one; although, what year was that? The Web became even heavier for PPC Macs very recently. Also, was it used a lot for Web-browsing or more for local work?

Below is what I see when I type in MacRumors: (Also, I am in TFF right now, and the tweaks have not helped. In fact, the lag I am experiencing is even worse. Everything from loading this page, to typing this, is now slower.

You have the rich text editor on. It's in your settings for your account here. Just turn it off and the site will be faster.

Note, you'll need to use tags manually if you want formatting.

Preferences section inside your account…note my settings:

As far as my tweaks, all you really need to do is replace my prefs file with yours. If it's slow after that there may be some other issues.