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How much do you think Apple will charge for Apple Silicon Macs?


  • Total voters
    165
  • Poll closed .

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
But releasing a MacBook Not Pro for MORE than an iPad Pro AND is intentionally hurt so that it can't perform as well as an iPad Pro is a recipe to just retire the Mac from Apple. It would be a pure, unmitigated disaster, heavy on the dis.

"Just buy an iPad" is THE ELEPHANT. There may be smaller elephants, but "Just buy an iPad" is THE BIG ONE. Apple has to give reasons to buy this laptop over "Just buy an iPad." Intentionally harming it to where it's either too expensive or intentionally hurt to not perform as well isn't the answer.
But that's what Apple is doing right now.

It's not "new". They have been saying "just buy an iPad" forever.

And "intentionally hampering performance" is the definition of the 2020 MacBook Air 13" that was released earlier this year. I'm actually surprised you don't see that.

Apple isn't competing against the iPad Pro with the Mac
I think that's where you and others are mistaken. Apple is competing against itself here.

If Apple was interested in gaining more Mac marketshare, we'd still have $599 Mac that supports x86. The fact that we don't anymore (and Mac pricing has increased overall compared to 10 years ago) is very telling.
 

Spindel

macrumors 6502a
Oct 5, 2020
521
655
Whatever the price is, it will be more expensive than it actually should be. It's just the way Apple rolls.
Then what should the price be?

I hear this a lot about apple products, but when asking what the price should be you usually get some ridicolous answer that is just the sum of the components (oh and when people try to show a similarly speced windows computer it costs about the same)
 
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EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
Then what should the price be?

I hear this a lot about apple products, but when asking what the price should be you usually get some ridicolous answer that is just the sum of the components (oh and when people try to show a similarly speced windows computer it costs about the same)
Of course the cost of a product is more than the BOM. On top of that is R&D, administration and profit margin to name the big ones. (Plus of the margins of the distribution channel (if needed) + taxes and fees.)
Everyone who is not a complete idiot understands that.
So lets try to break it down. Administration is the same. Physical R&D with the notable exception of the CPU/GPU is the same. Lets assume that the profit margin stays the same - which amplifies the final effects of any cost increases or reductions, also since it propagates beyond Apple.
The difficult part to assess is R&D costs for the SoC. But the Very Nice Thing for Apple is that the large base costs associated with that are already paid for in their iPhone(iPad) development. To a large extent, they "simply" need to connect more of the base units, and possibly add/change the external RAM interface, and pull out a number of PCI-e lanes. While it's not trivial, it's comparatively cheap, and includes modelling and most design debugging. Lithografic mask costs are unavoidable for distinct SoCs, and run in the $hundred million range in total for a SoC. Fixed costs can become an issue for limited run silicon, and we don't know Apples volumes per product, but lets treat the big iMac/Mac Pro separately.

Lets assume a die area for a hypothetical iPad Pro/small Mac A14x of 120mm2 (4big4Little8GPU16NPU). That would make roughly 500 dies on a 300mm wafer. Lets assume a good 80% yield (Apple can do as with the A12x and disable functional units to improve yield vs. defects, and use frequency binning to improve yield vs. process variation). That would give us a raw silicon cost of roughly $25 per die. Lets double that to $50 to give ourselves some safe margins. volumes for iPad Pros + small Macs may be, oh, 40 million annually? So if extending the A14 to the A14x cost half a billion USD, thats just over $10 per SoC. Lets call the whole thing $60. So if the BOM previously was $800 and included an intel processor at $300, you have just dropped total BOM to $540. That's a huge difference for those categories of Macs. Of course the cheapest Macs used cheaper intel processors, so savings will be less on the lowest cost items. Plug in your own numbers for the processors you are interested in, Intel supplies reasonably accurate pricing information.

Next example is a more ambitious SoC for MacBook Pros and iMacs. Lets assume (8big4Little16GPU32NPU256-bitLPDDR5). Die size roughly 200mm2, giving 300 raw dies per wafer. Greater probability for defects per die, obviously, but also more room to disable individual units to increase yield. For simple numbers, lets put usable dies per wafer at 67%=200dies => $50 per die. Lets increase that to $75 for extra headroom for errors. Now the volumes for such a chip is way less than for the A14x. MBPs+iMacs may sell 5 million annually (?). This is where the fixed costs start to factor in substantially, and where that uncertainty as to design costs starts to be a real bother. Half a billion dollars is quite high for extending the A14x to A14MBP, but lets keep it. If the design is used for two years (10 million units), it would add $50 to the cost per SoC, bringing it up to $125.
However, this should be compared to paying intel $xxx for the CPU, and AMD $yyy for the GPU+dedicated memory.
Even with hefty error bars, this constitutes major savings on BOM for Apple.

This is all back of the envelope, but there really is no doubt that Apple will save substantially on their Mac silicon budget.
 

Internaut

macrumors 65816
I’ve placed a very cautious vote on less. Simply because it potentially gives Apple the opportunity to push down towards Asus territory and increase ecosystem market share. Whether or not they do this is another matter. I don’t think Apple will compromise on component quality but I get no sense that a thing must be expensive because it is Apple. Apple is not Leica.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,517
19,664
Of course the cost of a product is more than the BOM. On top of that is R&D, administration and profit margin to name the big ones. (Plus of the margins of the distribution channel (if needed) + taxes and fees.)
Everyone who is not a complete idiot understands that.
So lets try to break it down. Administration is the same. Physical R&D with the notable exception of the CPU/GPU is the same. Lets assume that the profit margin stays the same - which amplifies the final effects of any cost increases or reductions, also since it propagates beyond Apple.
The difficult part to assess is R&D costs for the SoC. But the Very Nice Thing for Apple is that the large base costs associated with that are already paid for in their iPhone(iPad) development. To a large extent, they "simply" need to connect more of the base units, and possibly add/change the external RAM interface, and pull out a number of PCI-e lanes. While it's not trivial, it's comparatively cheap, and includes modelling and most design debugging. Lithografic mask costs are unavoidable for distinct SoCs, and run in the $hundred million range in total for a SoC. Fixed costs can become an issue for limited run silicon, and we don't know Apples volumes per product, but lets treat the big iMac/Mac Pro separately.

Lets assume a die area for a hypothetical iPad Pro/small Mac A14x of 120mm2 (4big4Little8GPU16NPU). That would make roughly 500 dies on a 300mm wafer. Lets assume a good 80% yield (Apple can do as with the A12x and disable functional units to improve yield vs. defects, and use frequency binning to improve yield vs. process variation). That would give us a raw silicon cost of roughly $25 per die. Lets double that to $50 to give ourselves some safe margins. volumes for iPad Pros + small Macs may be, oh, 40 million annually? So if extending the A14 to the A14x cost half a billion USD, thats just over $10 per SoC. Lets call the whole thing $60. So if the BOM previously was $800 and included an intel processor at $300, you have just dropped total BOM to $540. That's a huge difference for those categories of Macs. Of course the cheapest Macs used cheaper intel processors, so savings will be less on the lowest cost items. Plug in your own numbers for the processors you are interested in, Intel supplies reasonably accurate pricing information.

Next example is a more ambitious SoC for MacBook Pros and iMacs. Lets assume (8big4Little16GPU32NPU256-bitLPDDR5). Die size roughly 200mm2, giving 300 raw dies per wafer. Greater probability for defects per die, obviously, but also more room to disable individual units to increase yield. For simple numbers, lets put usable dies per wafer at 67%=200dies => $50 per die. Lets increase that to $75 for extra headroom for errors. Now the volumes for such a chip is way less than for the A14x. MBPs+iMacs may sell 5 million annually (?). This is where the fixed costs start to factor in substantially, and where that uncertainty as to design costs starts to be a real bother. Half a billion dollars is quite high for extending the A14x to A14MBP, but lets keep it. If the design is used for two years (10 million units), it would add $50 to the cost per SoC, bringing it up to $125.
However, this should be compared to paying intel $xxx for the CPU, and AMD $yyy for the GPU+dedicated memory.
Even with hefty error bars, this constitutes major savings on BOM for Apple.

This is all back of the envelope, but there really is no doubt that Apple will save substantially on their Mac silicon budget.

One can probably arrive at similar numbers easier. Intel and AMD sell chips for profit, Apple doesn’t have to. Looking at how much those companies charge for their chips and eye-balling the secondary costs, I agree, production of. Ore advanced chips will fall somewhere around the $100 mark.

I just don’t see a scenario where Apple wouldn’t save money by using their own chips. They are big enough. I don’t think that these savings will be fully passed down to us users, but I do believe that we will be getting much more for money.
 

ascender

macrumors 603
Dec 8, 2005
5,021
2,897
It would certainly be a statement for Apple to make if they have the refreshed laptops more powerful than the Intel ones they've just replaced and cheaper, but I still expect them to be the same price.
 
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Sneakz

macrumors 65816
Jul 17, 2008
1,224
347
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I expect prices to be the same. However, they may be cheaper from some. Processor options will probably be a thing of the past. MBA will go from three CPUs to one, 13" MBP will go from two CPUs down to one and 16" will go from three CPUs to one.

Those buying lower end machines won't save but higher end buyers may save a few $$$.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
I’ve placed a very cautious vote on less. Simply because it potentially gives Apple the opportunity to push down towards Asus territory and increase ecosystem market share. Whether or not they do this is another matter. I don’t think Apple will compromise on component quality but I get no sense that a thing must be expensive because it is Apple. Apple is not Leica.

Well, I'll just remind you that this exists, and leave you to decide whether Apple is Leica:

 
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Vazor

macrumors regular
May 7, 2020
151
340
I imagine they will cost less than the Intel counterparts and they’ll be priced similarly so Apple can have even better margins.

Short term I will probably buy whatever their Mac mini so I can stay relevant, at the same point that I’m going to need to make hackintosh‘s be my main business machine again
At least until intel macs are completely deprecated.
at which point I’m hoping, X86 emulation on ARM/AS makes it worthwhile for me to drop Big $ on a high-end Mac Pro.
or already decent arm emulators for x86 allow me to run Apple Silicon macOS at which point I imagine I’ll diverge further down the hackintosh rabbit hole.
 
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jazz1

Contributor
Aug 19, 2002
4,674
19,761
Mid-West USA
Well if the iPad Pro and the new ARM Apple MacBooks are going to have “kissing cousin” CPU’s I wonder what the cost differential might be? I’d really like to see price/performance comparisons between an iPad Pro 2020 vs. the ARM Air or resurrected 12” Macbook. Given the current iOS and the upcoming Big Sur this should even be more interesting.

Is it too crazy to think the the new ARM entry level Macbook should beat the performance of an iPad Pro 2020? Then of course there is a price comparison. iPad Pro with MK cost vs. a new ARM Macbook.

I think there are going to be a lot of people with modest computing needs that are going to find it even harder to choose between an iPad and new Apple laptops.
 

EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
One can probably arrive at similar numbers easier. Intel and AMD sell chips for profit, Apple doesn’t have to. Looking at how much those companies charge for their chips and eye-balling the secondary costs, I agree, production of. Ore advanced chips will fall somewhere around the $100 mark.

Well yes. Logic works too.
 
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EntropyQ3

macrumors 6502a
Mar 20, 2009
718
824
Well, I'll just remind you that this exists, and leave you to decide whether Apple is Leica:

Not to mention the $1000 monitor stand.
The amount of ridicule Apple (deserved) and Mac users, even Apple users in general (less so) has received for the pricing of these has to be worth more than the sales generated.

Jony Ive designed a camera for Leica btw. It was a very clean design, with compromised functionality, and extraordinarily expensive even by Leica standards.
Hmm....
 
Last edited:

yanksrock100

macrumors 6502a
Oct 30, 2010
673
245
San Diego
My guess is that the price will be around the same, except possibly a cheaper $850~ notebook on the low-end side. I don't expect the 16 inch to get cheaper at all.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,572
New Hampshire
screenshot-Sunday-11-08-2020-11-35-01.jpg
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,368
40,147
I expect the range to grow up and down (price wise) as their better margins (no Intel) will allow them to reach a bit further into the lower end...

...but

I also expect this to be a time they use the diversion of “New All Better Apple silicon” to slightly obscure a small upward reset of base prices — and of course lean heavily into price anchoring and feature upgrade options to drive the ASPs up.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,145
14,572
New Hampshire
I expect the range to grow up and down (price wise) as their better margins (no Intel) will allow them to reach a bit further into the lower end...

...but

I also expect this to be a time they use the diversion of “New All Better Apple silicon” to slightly obscure a small upward reset of base prices — and of course lean heavily into price anchoring and feature upgrade options to drive the ASPs up.

It's possible that they could use a barbell strategy as you allude to. But Apple has always been reluctant to expand product lines to too many models. A low-end model for volume and high-end models for profitability might work out really, really well.
 

itsmilo

Suspended
Sep 15, 2016
3,985
8,731
Berlin, Germany
Not as cheap as I would like it to be. Apple probably does not want to eat into its iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard sales.

In a perfect customer world it would be starting at a competitive price, giving that its a new thing and first adopters are basically guinea pigs with less software available.
 

dumastudetto

macrumors 603
Aug 28, 2013
5,530
8,310
Los Angeles, USA
Apple is always about creating maximum value for its customers. That doesn't necessarily mean lower prices, but it does mean outstanding products that go a lot further than all the competition.
 

Jimmy James

macrumors 603
Oct 26, 2008
5,489
4,067
Magicland
They need to price it lower to increase market share. The more devices they sell the more money they make on services and other peripheral devices and accessories. They are now competing with the entire x86 world and need to make the value proposition as compelling as possible.
This has always been true.
 
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