pricing for new Mac Cylinder

[jasondude]

That's a rather bogus comment. I'm a Mac Pro customer and I care about costs. It's business 101, cost vs. value. I even care about energy consumption & noise. It all factors in... Granted, you can expect it to be expensive, but if it's too expensive (cost not justified for purpose), there are many other options. We're not all cookie cutter users, and when you look at the cost for a 12 work station office, cost is a very important factor.

Not it is not a bogus comment! Buying a Mac Pro is more of investment on a fixed asset and increases the value of your business, and if you can not return your investment then the cost of this investments is to big for your business.
A good creative freelancing designer can return this investment in one job.
If you start cutting cost (energy consumption, how can you cut that) you affect your business and the definite output and its quality.

And to be honest if you are think that the investment that you will pay around 2,500.00 $ that will last you over a period 3-5 years is too much, then in reality you should not invest.

 

[VanCleef2012]

I honestly think the cost will be much lower. Less Aluminum, less fans, less heatsinks, less internals, etc. Lower price will get more sales, and externals will bring in the big bucks. Just think of all those Thunderbolt cables lol!

 

[deconstruct60]

Apple's motivation for pricing structures and how a consumer should shop are two different things. Its not Apples-to-Oranges if they systems both will get your specific job done in the same amount of time.

This started off as Apple had to price relative to competition. Now it is switching to the other side of the economic exchange. I know they aren't completely decoupled but not exactly the same either.

But the difference between the E3 and E5-1600s are not great to nonexistent for many workloads a SP system would encounter,

There is gap in core count from the mid-upper range 1600s. If core count isn't going to matter at all then Mac Pro really has very little traction in old or upcoming versions. It never was a single thread , high clock drag racing machine.

The difference also shrinks if Apple makes it difficult to impossible to put much RAM in an E5 machine.

Can put more memory into the 4 E5 slots. The E3 ( and desktop/mobile implementation Core i ) series max out at 32GB in the same 4 DIMM slots.

[quote Particularly, if these two AMD FirePro graphics cards are adding a lot of cash just to drive TB when most users could simply use the Z220s 3 HDD bays instead, then that certainly shifts the discussion for similar hardware spec to similar job capabilities.

So, right now, I have a hard time seeing how this Mac Pro keeps up dollar for dollar if the base price starts at $2499. [/quote]

If most of the Mac Pro user software ignores the GPGPU capabilities then the Mac Pro old or new format is on a dead end road anyway versus the iMac , mini , and z220.

The FirePro aren't just there for graphics number crunching. They really aren't just there to drive TB. In fact, it should be all that odd a situation where even though connected to TB one of them is driving no active video output signal at all.

The TB controller on both sides, TB cable, and having to buy another SATA controller is some additional deployed system cost but the FirePro is pulling its weight.


I think the FirePro is going to add value for folks who flip between OS X and Windows. While the OS X drivers tended to be optimized for what high end apps require one the windows side the types of cards Apple bought tended to be tweaked for games. For FirePro I don't think there is a major focus change for OS X driver than there was before. So now on either mode the drivers are on the same page. [ that the prices and margins are higher is probably not lost on Apple either. The margins may be so high that perhaps they won't layer the additional Apple tax on top.... but not holding my breath. ]

At the bottom end it looks out competed in $/performance by E3s (and at bottom end is where $/performance matters most).

E3s winning in $/perf is largely the performance not scaling at all. If it doesn't scale then Mac Pro was a mismatch; old or new.

 

[iZac]

It won't be cheap, but until they get closer to selling them we can only speculate. With Thunderbolt 2 being released late this year by Intel we can only presume a late 2013 or an early 2014 time frame for the new MacPros

I like speculating hmm, presumably they'll be out in Q4, whenever Intel can ship the new Xeons. As for the spec, I'd guess they'll ship with a standard 512Gb SSD, perhaps with the option to downgrade it to a 256Gb (tenuous, but possible, I mean they did that with a few older Mac Pros). The 512 will be pricey, but the 256Gb might be reasonable. It also looks like there will be space for a 2nd SSD, if symmetry and what might be redundant connectors have anything to say about it, so I doubt we should be worrying about having to throw away our smaller SSD to accommodate an aftermarket upgrade.

One could argue that it should be more reasonably priced compared to the old Mac Pro, because it seems there is only a single processor option and to be honest, since this is more geared toward prosumers instead of hardcore power users and enthusiasts, they might want to drop the price a bit to get a bigger installed user base. I mean a hulking great cheese grater is less tempting than this retro-futurist cylinder to a high-end consumer.


On a lighter note, did anyone spot that the note that it uses 'aluminium impact extrusion' to make the shell? That's basically how they make soda cans!

*queue "NEW COKE" jokes*

 

[GermanyChris]

I think the base model is gonna have:

• 6 Core Intel Ivy EP
• 16GB RAM
• 2x AMD FirePro W5000
• 512GB Flash

and it'll cost around $ 3599,-

The Big Mac

• 12 Core Intel Ivy EP
• 128GB RAM
• 2x AMD FirePro W9000
• 2x1024GB Flash

will cost around $ 12999,-

and a lot of configs in between.

I don't think single 32GB DIMM's are really practical right now in an OEM computer. They run $750 to $900 a DIMM plus mark up so figure 1k per DIMM retail.

 

[wallysb01]

There is gap in core count from the mid-upper range 1600s. If core count isn't going to matter at all then Mac Pro really has very little traction in old or upcoming versions. It never was a single thread , high clock drag racing machine.

True, but the difference between 4 and 6 isn't exactly huge. Especially if on the 6 core you're an architecture behind and at the bottom end several tenths of a GHz behind. For example, if the 1620 v2 is a 6-core 3.0GHz, vs the E3-1265 v3 which is 4 core 3.4 GHz. So, some quick math:
the 1620 v2 might be:
6x3.0 = 18
The 1265 v3:
4x3.4x1.1 = 15 (accounting for a 10% architecture advantage for Haswell, that typically ranged between 5-20%).

So the 1620 v2 is potentially 20% faster than the E3-1365 v3, but that 20% performance also comes with 130W vs 84W.

Can put more memory into the 4 E5 slots. The E3 ( and desktop/mobile implementation Core i ) series max out at 32GB in the same 4 DIMM slots.

And I said as much, but with only 4 slots and the current OSX cap at 96 GB anyway, its pretty expensive/impossible to get much over 64GB. So, how many tasks actually sit between 32GB and 64GB? In my experience, not many.

If most of the Mac Pro user software ignores the GPGPU capabilities then the Mac Pro old or new format is on a dead end road anyway versus the iMac , mini , and z220.

No, that's what an increased number of x86 cores would be good for too. But with on a single socket, its going to be very expensive to go above 6 at reasonable clock rates.

The FirePro aren't just there for graphics number crunching. They really aren't just there to drive TB. In fact, it should be all that odd a situation where even though connected to TB one of them is driving no active video output signal at all.

The TB controller on both sides, TB cable, and having to buy another SATA controller is some additional deployed system cost but the FirePro is pulling its weight.

Again, it will depend on the tasks. Forcing someone into a duel GPU setup, and potential expensive dual GPUs at that, will drive down value for those that the GPU isn't as important. For a lot of folks you're going to be paying for 2 GPUs just so you can add $1000 external TB storage solutions, which all could have been done internally with SATA for around 1/4 the cost. And these are people that need workstation class systems. You can't just kick them off pretending a iMac would work. That argument is plaining false. They need ECC RAM and >2 HDDs, just not duel GPUs...

[ that the prices and margins are higher is probably not lost on Apple either. The margins may be so high that perhaps they won't layer the additional Apple tax on top.... but not holding my breath. ]

I think this is the most important point left to issues, price. At ~$2000 I think it will compete, at ~$2500 not so much. This thing was clearly designed to target a larger audience, but that larger audience isn't willing to pay the hefty prices. Apple will have to take the external storage into account when something like a 6TB thunderbolt RAID is $700, and you could have done that internally for around $200. These are things consumers or prosumers are not going to be happy buying as it pushes the total price of the system when adding tax, monitor, and potentially other upgrades like RAM, to nearly $4000.

 

[Bear]

...
And I said as much, but with only 4 slots and the current OSX cap at 96 GB anyway, its pretty expensive/impossible to get much over 64GB. So, how many tasks actually sit between 32GB and 64GB? In my experience, not many.
...

Mavericks caps at 128GB.

 

[Tutor]

I think the base model is gonna have:

• 6 Core Intel Ivy EP
• 16GB RAM
• 2x AMD FirePro W5000
• 512GB Flash

and it'll cost around $ 3599,-

The Big Mac

• 12 Core Intel Ivy EP
• 128GB RAM
• 2x AMD FirePro W9000
• 2x1024GB Flash

will cost around $ 12999,-

and a lot of configs in between.

While that $12,999 figure seems ludicrous in the abstract, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Apple valued the retail price of 2 specially designed FirePro/6Gb cards and the otherwise empty Cylinder case at $6,400.00. Add in the cost of everything else and that would bring it in at around the cost of the first CUDA rig in my sig., below, aka WolfPackAlphaCanisLupus0. AlphaCanisLupus0 has over 16 Tflop/s [2078 x 8 = 16,624] of double precision peak floating point performance. Since each Titan, as I've clock-tweaked them, has over 4.5 Tflop/s of single precision peak floating point performance, namely 6.26 Tflops, AlphaCanisLupus0 has over 50 Tflop/s [ 4.5 x 1.39 overclock = 6.26; 6.26 x 8 = 50.1] of single precision peak floating point performance. So that $12,999 figure seems about right for what Apple would charge for a system whose GPUs are said to yield about 7 Tflop/s.

 

[wallysb01]

Mavericks caps at 128GB.

Well it's about time, but with only four DIMMs you'll need 32GB sticks which put you out about $700 a piece. Where as 16GB sticks are less then a 1/4 of that. So while you can get up to 128GB with 8 sticks for about $1000, with 32GB sticks it will run you about $2800.

 

[Bear]

Well it's about time, but with only four DIMMs you'll need 32GB sticks which put you out about $700 a piece. Where as 16GB sticks are less then a 1/4 of that. So while you can get up to 128GB with 8 sticks for about $1000, with 32GB sticks it will run you about $2800.

For those that need the memory, price is probably no issue. And who knows what the prices will be like when the Mac Pro is released.

 

[wallysb01]

For those that need the memory, price is probably no issue. And who knows what the prices will be like when the Mac Pro is released.

Of course price is an issue if you can get 128GB for nearly a third the cost ($1800 less) on a different machine, including a DP older Mac Pro. All the "money is no object" posts are getting tiresome.

 

[KaraH]

Typical rich fan boy comment maybe? So because we don't want or can drop $6,000 on a new computer we need to $tfu and go get the Mac Mini right? Nice.

No thanks, I'll stick to my 2009 Mac Pro with upgrades.

Maybe not 6 but I had already guestimated a budget of 4K for a mid-range system that was tweaked out with multiple drives, an SSD, and such.

What we got? I would not pay a dime more than 1499 as everything I want will need to be external and more expensive.

A 1499 price point may seem low for a pro system but it would have to be because of all the unneeded costs that got incurred by their not sticking with a tried-and-true tower. I am sure third-party manufacturers that were gearing up to sell for a new tower are even more upset at the situation.

 

[Tutor]

Maybe not 6 but I had already guestimated a budget of 4K for a mid-range system that was tweaked out with multiple drives, an SSD, and such.

What we got? I would not pay a dime more than 1499 as everything I want will need to be external and more expensive.

A 1499 price point may seem low for a pro system but it would have to be because of all the unneeded costs that got incurred by their not sticking with a tried-and-true tower. I am sure third-party manufacturers that were gearing up to sell for a new tower are even more upset at the situation.

Agreed, but the third-party accessory retailers are wide-smiling from ear to ear.

 

[itsmrjon]

OMG! The Mac Pro is for people with SERIOUS computer processing needs, who will make millions of dollars with the BEST computing power. Like those creating the Monsters University film. Definitely not for you.

Oh yea, because I'm sure that an applied mathematician like myself has no need for 'serious computer processing' power since I don't make movies. I mean, I only have this measly 96 compute core infiniband cluster

and this other stupid 40 compute core infinband workstation

I mean, it's not like I'd want a Mac pro as a visualization workstation to deal with datasets that are on the order of 100GB each? It's only movie studios that use workstations right?

stupid trolls

-------------------------

On topic, I'm really hoping the pricing is competitive. I'd like to get my hands on one just for visualization. I prefer using Macs for my workflow since I don't have to jump between Windows and RHEL when I'm writing papers or writing code respectively.

Forcing someone into a duel GPU setup, and potential expensive dual GPUs at that, will drive down value for those that the GPU isn't as important. You can't just kick them off pretending a iMac would work. That argument is plaining false. They need ECC RAM and >2 HDDs, just not duel GPUs...

And you hit it right on the money. I need the high core count, a bare minimum of 64GB ram, and a decent workstation GPU (no need for two). Also I'm wondering what the storage and NIC situations will be, because I need to be able to move big data around.

 

[Tesselator]

Also I'm wondering what the storage and NIC situations will be, because I need to be able to move big data around.

I'm not sure I'm following you but the MP6,1 has dual 1G Ethernet NICs - probably identical to MP 1,1 ~ 5,1.

I suppose TB2 can also be used for networking but that's only a guess. I mean I know USB and firewire can as I have done it in the past just for kicks - so I would guess TB can be used that way as well.

For internal storage you get the one SSD. Current SSD drives useful in OS X 10.10 or 10.9 come in 128GB, 256GB, 512GB, 800GB and just recently 1TB but I dunno if the 1TB drives are or will be available in the form factor Apple is using in the MP6,1.

External storage is of course whatever you connect to the Ethernet ports or the USB3.0 ports or the TB2 ports.

 

[itsmrjon]

I'm not sure I'm following you but the MP6,1 has dual 1G Ethernet NICs - probably identical to MP 1,1 ~ 5,1.

I suppose TB2 can also be used for networking but that's only a guess. I mean I know USB and firewire can as I have done it in the past just for kicks - so I would guess TB can be used that way as well.

For internal storage you get the one SSD. Current SSD drives useful in OS X 10.10 or 10.9 come in 128GB, 256GB, 512GB, 800GB and just recently 1TB but I dunno if the 1TB drives are or will be available in the form factor Apple is using in the MP6,1.

External storage is of course whatever you connect to the Ethernet ports or the USB3.0 ports or the TB2 ports.

I'll elaborate:
I'm wondering whether the new model will support fiber and will there be a thunderbolt Quad-NIC (I guess I could do this with an external PCIe).

Also on the storage side if it will only be a single SSD (no internal RAID-1) options. It seems counter-intuitive for a workstation not to have the main drive mirrored.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The New Mac Pro: So much talk, so little actual information so far....

I'm not worried about the elimination of internal storage bays. I hope the GPUs are not unique designs that close the door on flashed PC cards or cross-platform compatible GPUs.

I'll reserve judgement until I see specs and prices, but I do hope it starts at under $2500. Otherwise, my Mac Pro-using days will probably be over.

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

...Also, anyone want to guess what its geekbench score will be? I don't.

Geekbench is not suitable. Try real benchmarks!

 

[TweakOnline]

I hope the price won't be any higher than the current Macbook Pro Retina (around $2.799 bucks). What about you guys?

 

[elistan]

Preconfigured Dell Precision T7600 workstations range from $2241 to $6791.
Preconfigured HP Z820 workstations range from $2299 to $4999.

Modify the Dell to include dual 6GB Quadro 6000 GPUs, two E5-2667 six-core CPUs, 64GB of RAM and a 256 GB SATA SSD and you're looking at a $12,625 machine.

I wouldn't be surprised if the new MP starts around $3000 and goes up to $15,000+.

 

[wallysb01]

On topic, I'm really hoping the pricing is competitive. I'd like to get my hands on one just for visualization. I prefer using Macs for my workflow since I don't have to jump between Windows and RHEL when I'm writing papers or writing code respectively.


And you hit it right on the money. I need the high core count, a bare minimum of 64GB ram, and a decent workstation GPU (no need for two). Also I'm wondering what the storage and NIC situations will be, because I need to be able to move big data around.

I'm in genomics and in a very similar boat. I work with data that easily stretches into the 100s of GBs per project, if not a couple TBs, and in general GPUs are meaningless in my workflow. I like Macs because they can cross over into linux land very easily, but allows for all the pretty graphics and word processing that come when finishing projects up for publication.

With no modern Mac Pro with in sight this past January, I went for a 2x E5-2630 workstation running ubuntu as my main machine when I switch jobs, my personal Macbook Pro for writting papers, etc., and a variety of clusters for things my workstation can't do. If this Mac Pro was available then, I'd have loved to have sprung for it and not needed to take my personal machine to work when needing OSX. But the price would have to be right. I already stretched the budget I was given to ~$5K for this workstation. So, if the base was $2500, and I needed 12TB of data via Thunderbolt, plus 64GB of RAM, plus monitor....yikes! I'm already well over $5K and I have roughly half the CPU power of my 2x 2630s.

It starts getting hard to justify that kind of cost when computationally you can do so much more with a standard workstation. If the responce to that is something like "well then a Mac Pro just isn't for you," fine. I'll get by with what I have to in order to get the job done. But lets not try to make up false reasons for why this make pro doesn't fit me. Its not because "real" work needs 2x GPUs, or that "real" pros can justify any cost....

 

[portishead]

The only thing that bothers me is lack of HDD upgrades. Then again, it's not a big deal for me to plug in a USB 3.0 drive. Ideally I could have a 256GB Internal SSD, and 3-4TB Internal drive for media and stuff. So not a deal killer.

I think Apple is going to lose money on these at first. I can't imagine it's going to be cheap to have the case and motherboard design made. But it should get cheaper as time goes on, and they will make it up over time.

I think they have a lower end model around $2k. Single 4-6 Core E5, and a moderate graphics card.

 

[theSeb]

Oh yea, because I'm sure that an applied mathematician like myself has no need for 'serious computer processing' power since I don't make movies. I mean, I only have this measly 96 compute core infiniband cluster

Image

and this other stupid 40 compute core infinband workstation

Image

I mean, it's not like I'd want a Mac pro as a visualization workstation to deal with datasets that are on the order of 100GB each? It's only movie studios that use workstations right?

stupid trolls

-------------------------

On topic, I'm really hoping the pricing is competitive. I'd like to get my hands on one just for visualization. I prefer using Macs for my workflow since I don't have to jump between Windows and RHEL when I'm writing papers or writing code respectively.


And you hit it right on the money. I need the high core count, a bare minimum of 64GB ram, and a decent workstation GPU (no need for two). Also I'm wondering what the storage and NIC situations will be, because I need to be able to move big data around.

I am sorry, but you have far too many cables to be taken seriously as a professional.

 

[GermanyChris]

I hope the price won't be any higher than the current Macbook Pro Retina (around $2.799 bucks). What about you guys?

It needs to hit lower than the iPad Maxi..

It'll probably need to hit at less than 2K..realistically it'll be $2499 just like now.

 

[barmann]

I think this is the most important point left to issues, price. At ~$2000 I think it will compete, at ~$2500 not so much. This thing was clearly designed to target a larger audience, but that larger audience isn't willing to pay the hefty prices. Apple will have to take the external storage into account when something like a 6TB thunderbolt RAID is $700, and you could have done that internally for around $200. These are things consumers or prosumers are not going to be happy buying as it pushes the total price of the system when adding tax, monitor, and potentially other upgrades like RAM, to nearly $4000.

Well said .

Also, to me personally, the lowest model's pricing is of no concern - but where does the usable stuff start ?

Right now I have a decently specced early 2008 8core, a good current MP for me would be the 3.33 Hex . Ram for the latter is very affordable, I could use all my old externals , camera gear, and drives .

The new MP I'd expect to be at least 2x faster than my MP3.1- in real life, not on paper - have 24GB or more in Ram (32GB probably being the sensible choice, with only 4 slots), and whatever drives are in there, I'll need a system and a scratch drive , say 128GB each (double that to get beyond the minimum) .

For my occassional, but time critical 3D renders, 6 physical cores will be the minimum, and they better be fast .
Fast GPU is not a major concern, but should decent .

The MP 3.33 Hex is $3000, plus $400 for 3rd party 32GB Ram, comes with a soso GPU, and fits my drives . It might even work with 10.6.8, not sure though . Let's say 3500 total .

Anyways, for my new MP, I want at least 6 cores, 1.5x or more faster than the 3.33Hex, dual GPUs that beat the 5770 silly, 32GB Ram, dual harddrives 256GB, and TB hub with at least 3 FW800 and 3 USB 3.0 ports . TB 2.0 enclosure, for 4 HDDs (JBOD, and the bugger better be very silent). Nothing fancy, just the basic requirements for pro photo and some 3D work . Oh, and the adapters for my DVI monitors .

I'll pay $3500, and maybe a couple hundred more for that much better GPU , even though that should be a free benefit of latest tech.
One SSD drive is stock, for the other 256GB one I'd pay 200 .
TB hub and 4-bay enclosure, they threw it out of the case, I want them for free ; those always come free with any workstation, only built in .

All that, for say $3800 , to get a clearly faster version of the current 3.33 Hex, and we forget about the trouble I'll have by reconfiguring my drives and such, because they decided to force a new case design on me , and no TB peripharels are available which aren't silly overpriced, the few that actually exist .