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Not it is not a bogus comment! Buying a Mac Pro is more of investment on a fixed asset and increases the value of your business, and if you can not return your investment then the cost of this investments is to big for your business.
Thank you for making my argument more clear and backing me up on it. That ways my point.

A good creative freelancing designer can return this investment in one job.
If you start cutting cost (energy consumption, how can you cut that) you affect your business and the definite output and its quality.

And to be honest if you are think that the investment that you will pay around 2,500.00 $ that will last you over a period 3-5 years is too much, then in reality you should not invest.

Yeah, all those stupid overpaid engineers work so hard to provide lower power chips that produce less heat. You're so correct, of course, all Mac Pro customers are so immensely weighted down with all their money. Why would any of them care about operating expenses and overhead? How stupid of me... I'm glad I retired... I had it all wrong... Why didn't I just find someone like you to be my CFO..... NOT!!!

You are hilarious if you think your statements hold true for every type of business office or Mac Pro user... So everyone with a Mac Pro workstation is a freelance designer or video jockey. :D
 
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But lets not try to make up false reasons for why this make pro doesn't fit me. Its not because "real" work needs 2x GPUs, or that "real" pros can justify any cost....

It seems that apple has completely abandoned researchers. I was able to wait out my purchase for a bit (actually I'll have to make one by the end of the year), but from the looks of it I might be jumping ship to some of PSSC labs workstation solutions (they also provide clusters so it would be nice to have a single vendor going).

I am sorry, but you have far too many cables to be taken seriously as a professional. :D

Just think, with all the thunderbolt peripherals the mac pro will have as many cables as my clusters!
 
It seems that apple has completely abandoned researchers. I was able to wait out my purchase for a bit (actually I'll have to make one by the end of the year), but from the looks of it I might be jumping ship to some of PSSC labs workstation solutions (they also provide clusters so it would be nice to have a single vendor going).



Just think, with all the thunderbolt peripherals the mac pro will have as many cables as my clusters!

Indeed. I hope somebody releases a smart solution to this - an expansion box that can house hard drives/PCIe devices. I have a hard enough time with a Pegasus TB + Lacie TB + Blackmagic Intensity extreme...

Look at this... we're getting somewhere

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/press/pressdetails?releaseID=38154
 
Thank you for making my argument more clear and backing me up on it. That ways my point.



Yeah, all those stupid overpaid engineers work so hard to provide lower power chips that produce less heat. You're so correct, of course, all Mac Pro customers are so immensely weighted down with all their money. Why would any of them care about operating expenses and overhead? How stupid of me... I'm glad I retired... I had it all wrong... Why didn't I just find someone like you to be my CFO..... NOT!!!

You are hilarious if you think your statements hold true for every type of business office or Mac Pro user... So everyone with a Mac Pro workstation is a freelance designer or video jockey. :D

I never said that all type of business can use and utilize the Mac pro. But creative industries pretty much all use a Mac and never thought about a cost for it. I have never seen a Mac (any type) used in a enterprise environment, but I have rarely seen a PC in a "creative" business environment (music studios, architect, marketing or add agency...).

I work for a shoe retail and production company and here it is a mixed environment of enterprise and creative types. The designers (brand, store, shoe, add designers) all use Macs and all other people (production planning, accountant, retail, etc.) use a PC (Dell). The company NEVER cuts cost on creative types and designers, cause they are our bread and butter. But it will cut cost on "us" other commonly folk.

I used a single good creative designer as a measure of income that a single good well thought designer can have enough income to return an investment on a Mac pro, let alone a small or medium business. (if the business type has a goo use of a Mac)
 
I'll elaborate:
I'm wondering whether the new model will support fiber and will there be a thunderbolt Quad-NIC (I guess I could do this with an external PCIe).

Yup, there ya go... answered your own question. That should theoretically work perfectly with only a very slight (probably not noticeable at all) lag.

Also on the storage side if it will only be a single SSD (no internal RAID-1) options. It seems counter-intuitive for a workstation not to have the main drive mirrored.

Yeah, I agree. That option is part of the Workstation definition IMO. Oh well. Instead you'll have to chron a Cloner like CCC or use TimeMachine.

You should be able to do both and still have lots of bandwidth left over for RAID arrays of all sorts.
 
I don't know about enough about the state of unions and manufacturing in the US to negate what you said, but do you know enough to state it as fact? I've worked for Apple in two different capacities in the US, both times as an independent contractor with almost no legal protections and certainly no union.

I have a 40+ year background in Manufacturing in the US. The people assembling the Mac Pro's will not be Apple employees. Never happen. They will be very low wage employees of contractors chosen for the geographic location of the lowest wages in the nation. Traditionally in the south. No benefits, and as close to minimum wage as they can force. I guaranty it.

<off topic>
 
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But the unions are supposed to protect worker's rights and protect against employer's abuse + wrongful terminations. I guess unions in this country have lost power completely due to corporate corruption.. Ok, back to discussing the price for the new iCan.


I have a 40+ year background in Manufacturing in the US. The people assembling the Mac Pro's will not be Apple employees. Never happen. They will be very low wage employees of contractors chosen for the geographic location of the lowest wages in the nation. Traditionally in the south. No benefits, and as close to minimum wage as they can force. I guaranty it.

And about unions, I have worked for for more than one company in my career that has been forced into bankruptcy by unions. Even when a company is losing money the unions will demand pay increases or threaten to strike and bring the company to their knees. Next thing that happens is all the union saps are looking for a new job because their mother ship went BK. McDonnell Douglas was one of them. The last 10 years they were in business they sold EVERY aircraft they produced for LESS money than it cost them to build it. A very proud 75 year history brought to an end buy the UAW.

Unions don't stop slave or child labor. We have laws for that.
 
It seems like the pricing for the new Mac Cylinder could be high especially with the solid state internal drive. The current pricing for a one TB solid state drive is around $1K. Any thoughts?

That's artificially priced. PCIe attached storage vendors put an arbitrary price and say "Hey, this is fast. Pay if you can, move along if you don't".

But there's no reason for PCIe attached storage to be significantly pricier than a SATA attached SSD disk. Look at the new Macbook Air. It seems to have PCIe attached flash. Has the price increased? Not at all.
 
I'm hoping that a modestly specced Mac Pro will come at around the same price as a high end iMac, ie. ~2 grand. Because lets face it, you have to add a monitor to that price, which is likely going to be another grand, at least if you get an Apple monitor.

I'm hoping that something around a 6-8 core Mac Pro with two high end consumer grade graphics cards will be around 2.5-3K, and Apple comes out with a pixel-doubled "retina" new Apple Display for an extra grand.

I have no doubt that the 12 core, 2x Fire Pro tiny behemoth will be astronomically priced, but I think it is definitely in Apple's best interests to cover the medium range performance/cost as well.
 
2999 is my serious guess, 3999 is my Apple Design Tax guess - as in cynical guess. My dream price, since its all integrated 1999.
 
I have a 40+ year background in Manufacturing in the US. The people assembling the Mac Pro's will not be Apple employees. Never happen. They will be very low wage employees of contractors chosen for the geographic location of the lowest wages in the nation. Traditionally in the south. No benefits, and as close to minimum wage as they can force. I guaranty it.

Hmmm your 40+ year background is incorrect!

I know of a handful of Apple employee's who will and have been building them.

And they laughed at you calling them a Goober and not allowed to repeat what the called you. Your facts are incorrect Dr.Stealth.
 
But Apple computers aren't the only option. So all these arguements about what's "worth it" are moot if they don't take into account the compition. If I can get a Z220 for $1500 that can do everything the new $3000 Mac Pro can do, then it doesn't make sense to but the Mac Pro from a strictly business choice perspective. Now if "cool" is worth $1500 to you, so be it, I won't stop you from spending your money.
Besides, if one wants to make said 120k a year, they still need startup money to get to first success. And it's hard to justify the Mac Pro price before you KNOW it really does make money for you, instead of just assuming so.

For established businesses, it is naturally a different deal.
 
Lets say the 'entry' level MP is 2500$ (I think I'll be higher)
You get: mid range xeon, 16gb of ram, 256mb flash drive and mid range ati firepro cards.
On the other side you have an Imac for 2700$
You get: latest and greatest i7, 16 gb of ram, fusion drive, top range gtx 700 series with 3 gb of ram and a 27" screen.

Benchmark wise: Pretty much on the same level. I don't see entry level MP being much faster than top end iMac.

Looking back at entry level MP5,1, the basic 5770 GPUs where crap, it came with little ram, and standard 1tb drive. But the fact that you could upgrade the hard drives and GPUs relatively cheap (no extra TB cases, daisy chaining, etc) made the MP much more attractive than new one.

This new MP is made for only select few. Most pros and sami-pros are on a budget. If you think that a photographer for example is swimming with money, you're really delusional. People look for value and a way to expand your computer relatively cheap.

Being a semi-pro, I can't afford the new MP. I've spend about 5.5k on current MP 5,1, and that's factoring all the drives, GPU update and CPU upgrade (when I was buying it) etc. For a 'similar' specced new MP I'll probably spend the same amount of dollars for a CPU and GPU updates, but then I need to spend all that extra money for TB2 external cases...and those will NOT be cheap.

my 0.02 cents
 
$2999.99 base

$3999.99 better model w/ build to order options

Apple has kept certain price points even with new models replacing old ones.
 
....
I'm hoping that something around a 6-8 core Mac Pro with two high end consumer grade graphics cards will be around 2.5-3K, and

There is a more than decent chance it will be a 4 core. The E5 1600 line up starts with a 4 core. Its base clock is likely faster than anything else in the line up. It is a core count for base rate speed trade off. To hit 6 cores with a "low as possible" Xeon E5 price you are going to take a huge hit in base clock rate.


Apple comes out with a pixel-doubled "retina" new Apple Display for an extra grand.

Not ... going ... to ... happen. ( at least for several years. )

All of these 4K range displays are in the several thousands range. They cost more than an entry level (or even mid range) Mac Pro.

The other issue is why? The current 27" is already Retina level. If pulled it very close to you then now it just drops under the transition point, but at relatively normal distances from user ( about 20" if I recall correctly) it is Retina. Doubling the pixels isn't making it any more clear.

The 21.5" monitor.... sure there would be a significant Retina impact there. If Apple could get the price down on that maybe they'd release one. Again the screen buy itself would roughly shoot up into the entry Mac Pro range.

but I think it is definitely in Apple's best interests to cover the medium range performance/cost as well.

Apple probably thinks so to. The Mac Pro growth isn't going to come from the super duper extra deluxe models. Without that growth there won't be a Mac Pro a couple years from now.
 
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Lets say the 'entry' level MP is 2500$ (I think I'll be higher)
You get: mid range xeon, 16gb of ram, 256mb flash drive and mid range ati firepro cards.
On the other side you have an Imac for 2700$
You get: latest and greatest i7, 16 gb of ram, fusion drive, top range gtx 700 series with 3 gb of ram and a 27" screen.

Benchmark wise: Pretty much on the same level. I don't see entry level MP being much faster than top end iMac.

It is relatively easily faster. Not by a huge margin but not hard on a decent range of software.

Apple is likely to use the something like the E5 1600 v2 offerings. The current E5 1620 clocks in at 3.6 and turbos up to 3.8.

http://ark.intel.com/products/64621...-E5-1620-10M-Cache-3_60-GHz-0_0-GTs-Intel-QPI

It has twice as much memory I/O bandwidth. It probably has about twice as much L3 cache. Later in the year the Core i7 47xx ("Haswell") that the iMac will get will have a somewhat better fused 256 math ops pipeline but that won't work be optimized on most current software.

The Mac Pro's drive will be significantly faster than any Fusion drive. ( the capacity won't get matched but "out of the box" performance isn't going to be matched.)


It is very likey the that new E5 1620 v2 that the upcoming Mac Pro will use will bump that up to 3.7-3.9 GHz. ( It is technically not a "Ivy BRidge E" but uses the same base chip die with different features flipped on/off
http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/...ge-E_extreme_CPUs_to_launch_in_September.html The i7 4820K is basically the equivalent of the 1620 right down the price Intel charges. )


So even if the upcoming bump of the Core i7 that the new iMac rises to the current E5 1620 levels it will still behind a bit on base clock ( which will help neutralize any incremental micro-architecture advantage. )


The primary reason the iMac can outclass the current entry Mac Pro is because Intel crippled the entry level offering over two tick-tock cycles ago. They never did a Westmere update of the entry level product. The entry level , 4 core , offering has been stuck on 2009 era architecture because Intel never updated it. If Intel doesn't make it, Apple can't sell it.

From the perspective of the just only the entry level model it was more than a little crazy that Apple did nothing in 2012 (and till now) about picking up the solution/upgrade that Intel finally shipped in 2012. I realize that entry model isn't the whole line up and there were bigger issues involved. But Intel fixed the root cause of the problem of the iMac-Mac Pro gap last year.






Being a semi-pro, I can't afford the new MP. I've spend about 5.5k on current MP 5,1, and that's factoring all the drives, GPU update and CPU upgrade (when I was buying it) etc.

there is a good chance there won't be any GPU upgrades and that budget will get swapped for the TB external "expansion" that will be paid for in new system.
 
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It is relatively easily faster. Not by a huge margin but not hard on a decent range of software.

Apple is likely to use the something like the E5 1600 v2 offerings. The current E5 1620 clocks in at 3.6 and turbos up to 3.8.

http://ark.intel.com/products/64621...-E5-1620-10M-Cache-3_60-GHz-0_0-GTs-Intel-QPI

It has twice as much memory I/O bandwidth. It probably has about twice as much L3 cache. Later in the year the Core i7 47xx ("Haswell") that the iMac will get will have a somewhat better fused 256 math ops pipeline but that won't work be optimized on most current software.

The Mac Pro's drive will be significantly faster than any Fusion drive. ( the capacity won't get matched but "out of the box" performance isn't going to be matched.)


It is very likey the that new E5 1620 v2 that the upcoming Mac Pro will use will bump that up to 3.7-3.9 GHz. ( It is technically not a "Ivy BRidge E" but uses the same base chip die with different features flipped on/off
http://www.cpu-world.com/news_2013/...ge-E_extreme_CPUs_to_launch_in_September.html The i7 4820K is basically the equivalent of the 1620 right down the price Intel charges. )


So even if the upcoming bump of the Core i7 that the new iMac rises to the current E5 1620 levels it will still behind a bit on base clock ( which will help neutralize any incremental micro-architecture advantage. )


The primary reason the iMac can outclass the current entry Mac Pro is because Intel crippled the entry level offering over two tick-tock cycles ago. They never did a Westmere update of the entry level product. The entry level , 4 core , offering has been stuck on 2009 era architecture because Intel never updated it. If Intel doesn't make it, Apple can't sell it.

From the perspective of the just only the entry level model it was more than a little crazy that Apple did nothing in 2012 (and till now) about picking up the solution/upgrade that Intel finally shipped in 2012. I realize that entry model isn't the whole line up and there were bigger issues involved. But Intel fixed the root cause of the problem of the iMac-Mac Pro gap last year.








there is a good chance there won't be any GPU upgrades and that budget will get swapped for the TB external "expansion" that will be paid for in new system.


I highly doubt that the entry level MP will be much faster than top end iMac (haswell cpus). Those soldered on entry level AMD GPUs will not be that great ...ohh and I rather have CUDA...
 
I highly doubt that the entry level MP will be much faster than top end iMac (haswell cpus).

You can highly doubt all you want. The hard data is that Haswell is about the typical 10-20% jump in x86 throughput as most other Intel "one tick" ( or "on tock" ) iterations.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/6

You may find some corner cases but if the "generation behind" x86 core is 'allowed' to clock 10-20% faster then isn't going to be a huge gap in micro-archtecture performance. The Xeon E5 implementation just plain outright has much better broader I/O throughput. The memory speeds aren't going to be twice as fast with Haswell to make up ground.

The general Haswell era effort for laptop/mainstram-desktop improvements went into graphics and power management.



Those soldered on entry level AMD GPUs will not be that great

Bold claim when don't even know what they are


but oh


...ohh and I rather have CUDA...

This is really one of those Nvidia vs. AMD fanboy pissing matches. Whatever.

Nvidia has disspeared from the Mac line up before. 2013 will likely be another Nvidia year because neither AMD nor Nvidia really made any major changes in 2013 ( it is mostly just speed bumped 2012 models going into systems). In 2014 though if AMD has what Apple wants , Nvidia could be swept aside.

Likely same thing happened on Mac Pro. AMD had what Apple wanted at the prices Apple wanted to pay. AMD was probably also more highly motivated since they had lost on being embedded on the rest of the Mac line up. (and frankly need all the business right now they can get as an overall company )
 
Mac Cylinder....

really?....:D.....I like the nickname....But to the question: I hope base configurations have competitive pricing (same or like the current Pros). Dont forget Apple have the advantage of bulk or OEM pricing and can be able to pass out a percentaje of savings to the final customer. By the other hand, innovative technology and first users commonly means big bucks.....:eek: :(

But as the late times with Apple: We have to wait and see....


:):apple:
 
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