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BenRoethig

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2002
2,729
0
Dubuque, Iowa
So they can do it because using twisted logic its justified?

That sounds just like Mccains "I wouldnt have had to go negative if you had gone to town hall debates with me" line.

And you expect everyone who has been screwed by Apple to either just follow like a good little boy or leave and take their thousands of dollar and years they invested in the platform right? Apple doesn't want to listen to anyone not named Jobs or Ive. You and your pals want to shut down anything that deviates from what comes out of the PR machine in Cupertino, who is looking out for the average to above average Mac users. The one who wants a computer who actually does just work.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
And you expect everyone who has been screwed by Apple to either just follow like a good little boy or leave and take their thousands of dollar and years they invested in the platform right? Apple doesn't want to listen to anyone not named Jobs or Ive. You and your pals want to shut down anything that deviates from what comes out of the PR machine in Cupertino, who is looking out for the average to above average Mac users. The one who wants a computer who actually does just work.

How exactly are you screwed now that apple no longer offers a product like the emac?


I'm sorry if I beleive that Apple has the right to do whatever they wish with the operating system they created.
 

Eric S.

macrumors 68040
Feb 1, 2008
3,599
0
Santa Cruz Mountains, California
I'm sorry if I beleive that Apple has the right to do whatever they wish with the operating system they created.

All well and good, but let's not lose sight of the fact that a large percentage of OS X is actually BSD Unix and Mach, open source code developed at places like AT&T, UC Berkeley, and Carnegie Mellon, and worked on by a veritable army of programmers who never received a dime from Apple and who provided their labor solely to advance the state of OS technology, from which Apple is now benefiting.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
All well and good, but let's not lose sight of the fact that a large percentage of OS X is actually BSD Unix and Mach, open source code developed at places like AT&T, UC Berkeley, and Carnegie Mellon, and worked on by a veritable army of programmers who never received a dime from Apple and who provided their labor solely to advance the state of OS technology, from which Apple is now benefiting.

So what do you propose they do?

Apple owns it, at this point it doesnt matter who developed it. Unless you'd like ownership laws to be rewritten, but that makes everything even more complicated.
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
All well and good, but let's not lose sight of the fact that a large percentage of OS X is actually BSD Unix and Mach, open source code developed at places like AT&T, UC Berkeley, and Carnegie Mellon, and worked on by a veritable army of programmers who never received a dime from Apple and who provided their labor solely to advance the state of OS technology, from which Apple is now benefiting.

Might as well get mad at all the paid Linux distros as well.

They have a right to sell the product for money when they add value to it. Obviously, people respect that value and purchase the product. However, one cannot deny it seems a little domineering when they to tell you what you can and cannot do with a product you paid for.
 

Eric S.

macrumors 68040
Feb 1, 2008
3,599
0
Santa Cruz Mountains, California
So what do you propose they do?

Apple owns it, at this point it doesnt matter who developed it. Unless you'd like ownership laws to be rewritten, but that makes everything even more complicated.

I don't propose they do anything. I'm just pointing out that your contention of "the operating system they created" overlooks the fact that the operating system was largely created by others.

Might as well get mad at all the paid Linux distros as well.

I'm not mad. (Not about this anyway; there are more important things to be mad about.)
 

BenRoethig

macrumors 68030
Jul 17, 2002
2,729
0
Dubuque, Iowa
How exactly are you screwed now that apple no longer offers a product like the emac?

It doesn't hurt me a bit. It hurts people like my parents and others who want to replace their PC with a Mac. At $799 the Mac platform was accessible to anyone. At $1199 and with specs far beyond the their needs. But hey, if Apple doesn't want their money, they can just not switch.

What does screw me is the massive price increase on the towers and the elimination of firewire on the Macbook. $2500 for a Workstation is not exactly affordable, so I had to buy the $2.4ghz Rev A Alu iMac to replace my PowerMac. Great computer for a home user with very minimal needs, but for me it was a complete disappointment. CPU is too slow, not enough RAM capability, video card is underwhelming to say the least, hard drive is two small and not user replaceable, the slot loading notebook drive is slow as molasses compared to a desktop model, and it has half the amount of USB2.0 ports available and they're in position that requires you to turn the machine to plug a device which you will have to do a lot unless you buy a hub. In essence I replaced an innovative user friendly tower with a bunch of notebook parts stuffed in a cheap display that requires a much of external devices to be even remotely useful or I could have twice as much.


I'm sorry if I beleive that Apple has the right to do whatever they wish with the operating system they created.

And if they drive it right into the ground once again? I would much rather that not happen. Apple has the potential to be great, you would rather have them increasingly mediocre, but exclusive.
 

djellison

macrumors 68020
Feb 2, 2007
2,229
4
Pasadena CA
I don't propose they do anything. I'm just pointing out that your contention of "the operating system they created" overlooks the fact that the operating system was largely created by others.

Indeed - those outraged at Psystar for profiting from the work of the OSX86 community seem ignorant of the fact that OSX is built on the work of others also.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
It doesn't hurt me a bit. It hurts people like my parents and others who want to replace their PC with a Mac. At $799 the Mac platform was accessible to anyone. At $1199 and with specs far beyond the their needs. But hey, if Apple doesn't want their money, they can just not switch.

What does screw me is the massive price increase on the towers and the elimination of firewire on the Macbook. $2500 for a Workstation is not exactly affordable, so I had to buy the $2.4ghz Rev A Alu iMac to replace my PowerMac. Great computer for a home user with very minimal needs, but for me it was a complete disappointment. CPU is too slow, not enough RAM capability, video card is underwhelming to say the least, hard drive is two small and not user replaceable, the slot loading notebook drive is slow as molasses compared to a desktop model, and it has half the amount of USB2.0 ports available and they're in position that requires you to turn the machine to plug a device which you will have to do a lot unless you buy a hub. In essence I replaced an innovative user friendly tower with a bunch of notebook parts stuffed in a cheap display that requires a much of external devices to be even remotely useful or I could have twice as much.




And if they drive it right into the ground once again? I would much rather that not happen. Apple has the potential to be great, you would rather have them increasingly mediocre, but exclusive.

So your screwed by the products that no one forces you to buy?

interesting.


As for your "drive right into the ground" statement, so far all signs point to apple only furthering its good fortune. Apparantly you live in a hypothetical world.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,093
22,159
Indeed - those outraged at Psystar for profiting from the work of the OSX86 community seem ignorant of the fact that OSX is built on the work of others also.

Yes but OSX is owned and copyrighted by Apple, as far as the law is concerned apple owns it 100% regardless of who worked on it.
 

hogfaninga

macrumors 65816
Aug 16, 2008
1,305
0
Chestnut Tree Cafe
Fanbois are so dang irritating. Young and brainwashed by Jobs. Apple can do no wrong.

Go Psystar and all the small companies against the multinationals corps. like Apple. Competition is good for the consumer. The more options the better.
 

MattInOz

macrumors 68030
Jan 19, 2006
2,760
0
Sydney
All well and good, but let's not lose sight of the fact that a large percentage of OS X is actually BSD Unix and Mach, open source code developed at places like AT&T, UC Berkeley, and Carnegie Mellon, and worked on by a veritable army of programmers who never received a dime from Apple and who provided their labor solely to advance the state of OS technology, from which Apple is now benefiting.

All those good people offered their time knowing the license agreement it would be offered under. Apple agreed to the terms of those licenses and pay with Staff time, knowledge or research funds as required. Many of the Army do receive a dime from Apple each pay cycle.

If they didn't I'm sure one of these would be going after Apple in much the same way Apple is going after Pystar.

Yes but OSX is owned and copyrighted by Apple, as far as the law is concerned apple owns it 100% regardless of who worked on it.

Not so much own but have valid license to use, extend and defend.
 

Voltaic

macrumors regular
Nov 13, 2007
142
0
Really. Nice of you to assume things you know nothing about.

I meant o disrespect, I apologize if it came across that way.

Look guys, the Opera ban for the iPhone is the very reason many of us are fed up with Apple's business practices. I am happy to be a customer and happy to buy Apple's hardware/software, I will not be manipulated or overcharged however.

Please open your eyes, to expect more and more of it from Apple can only help the market (us) and indeed Apple. Many of us here are not being negative, we are offering valid complaints and constructive criticism. Yes we are frustrated and sometimes angry (me), I am sure it comes across.

I want an honest product for an honest buck. I do expect Apple to be better than Microsoft and others, I have invested much too much. It scares me too much to see my only option, the Mac platform, become so arrogant and anti-competitive with less than 10% of the market share. If Apple maintains its current behavior I can't help but hope it gets beaten back down to 2-3% for its own good and for its core users.
 

MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,196
1,452
You bought exactly what they sold you. If you're acting like you own more than you do, it is very much their business what you're doing.

Clearly, you do not believe in consumer rights or 'fair use' but in Corporations being able to dictate (as in dictator) to citizens of the U.S. how they can use software they purchase. As I said, consumers now have less rights with software than they do solid concrete hardware in this country, which is just patently absurd. Like I said, it's a lesser crime for me to steal a DVD than to make a backup copy of it! That's patently absurd, but it's what you and people like you support. Laws like the DMCA have attempted to destroy fair use copying and backup laws by protecting copy methods that prevent such backups and making illegal to find a way to backup such products, despite prior law allowing such backups. You do not support the rights of citizens but the rights of the few (namely the rich) to control the actions of citizens. I find that utterly and completely despicable.

It's time to take this country back from the minority of the rich and give it back to the people. That means FAIR laws and FAIR USE and a FAIR profit, not giving tax breaks to companies that ship jobs to other countries purely in the name of profit, which helps to destroy this country from within and it means companies like Apple should have to compete on the merit of their hardware not use OS X as a chain to force you to buy uncompetitive hardware in order to use Macintosh software. If Mac hardware is so great, it should be able to compete independently against hardware from companies like Dell or Lenovo, not force sales of their hardware in order to use OS X, no matter how inferior that hardware might be (e.g. Glossy only, No firewire, no expandability in desktops, etc.). That's not a FREE market. That's a FIXED market. Eulas undermine consumer rights. The Constitution of the US clearly defines this country as rule by and for the people, not by a minority of rich corporations. When you sell a product in a country, you abide by their market rules. And that's where groups like the Republicans have undermined the rights of citizens to support the rights of companies like Disney that think copyrights should NEVER expire, which is NOT what they were designed for and undermines their very principle and the public domain that such items are meant to enter after the period of time defined by a copyright (a privilege granted so a person can make a living off their idea) for the good of the public thereafter. Just look where those sorts of (Republican) policies have lead this country and the world markets with it...to the brink of collapse. There's your corporate dream or rather corporate GREED.

Basically Psystar is saying "we don't care what Apple thinks, we are going to do what we want and screw them"

They are being defiant despite the fact that they are supposed to be in negotiations with Apple.

Please explain how purchasing a legitimate copy of OS X is 'screwing' Apple. Psystar is not selling Apple HARDWARE and it's not using Apple DESIGNS. They're reselling legal clone hardware and including a purchased copy of OS X. Apple is getting their money for their operating system. They don't get the money for the hardware because it's NOT THEIR HARDWARE!

This idea that Apple is somehow ENTITLED to a monopoly on hardware for their computer operating system is based on what? The idea that in a free society that a corporation should be allowed to dictate how and what you can do with something you purchase? Should Apple be allowed to tell me when I can go to the bathroom also? (If it means they make more money, they would probably try it!) If Apple doesn't want the public to be able to use their operating system as they see fit, they should not release it for public sale. It's as simple as that. Note that I said USE, *not* "pirate" or "hack" or anything else. It is quite frankly, NONE OF APPLE'S BUSINESS where I install the OS I bought legitimately. I can't understand how some people can't see that. That's a privacy issue. They have no right to tell me where I can shop, what movies I can watch or what hardware I can buy. Their rights should begin and end at purchasing their operating system at a store. Their software should have to compete with other software. Their hardware should have to compete with other hardware. But no, they use one to force you to buy the other whether you want it or not through a Eula, which should have no legal bearing giving it's violating the consumer's rights to privacy and free choice of hardware, which has NOTHING to do with the ability to run OS X since clearly PC clone hardware is fully capable of running it. There's no propriety hardware to be found in today's Mac, what-so-ever so any Eula claim is based on nothing more than a desire to monopolize the hardware for their operating system market. Let their hardware compete on its own merits, not because their OS Eula says you have to pay for overpriced hardware with no option for a matte screen or firewire port.
 

dejo

Moderator emeritus
Sep 2, 2004
15,982
452
The Centennial State
Competition is good for the consumer.
Even if it's illegal? If you think so, please let me know something you've produced that I can ripoff and start selling on my own. I won't have to worry about you suing me.
The more options the better.
Not necessarily. At some point too many options bewilders the end user, especially when it becomes hard to differentiate between choices and the consequence of those choices. I'm not saying no choices; but too many choices can be just as bad as too few, sometimes even worse. For a great book on this topic, check out Barry Schwartz' "The Paradox Of Choice".
 

Babybandit

macrumors regular
Oct 29, 2008
126
0
Yes. Especially then.

That is just twisted logic.

Yes, competition is good, very good for both the consumer and the supplier. However, when it is illegal - that is no good. If Apple gave permission to Psystar to start producing them! Great! Go get them, but when it becomes illegal competition, it's best to stay away. As not only Psystar can get sued, everyone who bought a computer can be sued too.

Yes, it's monopoly, but Apple was going to be a Monopolist ever since Jobs returned. And see his ways has indeed brought Apple hack to track.

Yes, his views are the "Almighty Godness" view for Apple Staff and Stockholders, which we may not share (I don't), but how many times have they revolutionized the market and seen things before we did?
Don't like? Don't get. Complain, but Constructive.
And buying from an illegal competitor is going to risk both you and the company, the whole economy. Just don't...
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
Clearly, you do not believe in consumer rights or 'fair use'
Oh please. This has nothing to do with either. Consumers absolutely have rights. Not among them, however, is the right to take for themselves what was not offered for sale.
As I said, consumers now have less rights with software than they do solid concrete hardware in this country, which is just patently absurd.
They do not. Such generalizations are what is patently absurd. Consumers have exactly what they buy, and as regards IP ownership, consumers have exactly the same rights.
Like I said, it's a lesser crime for me to steal a DVD than to make a backup copy of it!
You're not talking about backups at all throughout any of this, and it's not a lesser crime. It has substantially lesser economic consequences, however.
You do not support the rights of citizens but the rights of the few (namely the rich) to control the actions of citizens.
Stop making this about the "rich" and the "citizens". It's moronic. The "rights of the citizens" include the right to determine what you're willing to sell, and at what price you're willing to sell it. If you sell a car part at a garage sale, I imagine you'd be pretty upset if the buyer showed up the next day and took your whole car.

It doesn't have anything to do with the rich, or corporations, or anything else that might be rattling around in your head. A person, of any degree of wealth or incorporation, has a right to sell however much or little of what he owns. What's despicable is listening to repeated boneheaded arguments that it's a consumer rights issue to seize more than was sold.
When you sell a product in a country, you abide by their market rules.
Apparently not to you. The market rules in this country are that the owner may choose to sell what he pleases to whom he pleases. The buyer may accept the terms or may elect not to buy.
Please explain how purchasing a legitimate copy of OS X is 'screwing' Apple.
The product is offered at a price, cognizant of its limitations. That price is lower than it would be without those restrictions. Ignoring the restrictions while enjoying the benefit of the lower price is not fair competition economically, it's not legal contractually, and it's not authorized by copyright.
This idea that Apple is somehow ENTITLED to a monopoly on hardware for their computer operating system is based on what?
Their ownership of their computer operating system.
The idea that in a free society that a corporation should be allowed to dictate how and what you can do with something you purchase?
They're not dictating what you can do with what you purchase. They're dictating what you can do with what you don't own and they're allowing you to use.
That's a privacy issue.
No.
But the case here is absolutely different. Psystar did not steal any software. They're giving you Leopard bought from Apple without charging you a single penny more of its price (so they don't make money with other people's work, but Apple is the one making money with it).
No. They make money by encouraging and materially contributing to copyright infringement. They make money solely by piggybacking off Apple's expenditures and investments in the development and marketing of OS X--without contributing anything back. They take advantage of a price offered to specific customers on a conditional basis in order to keep their costs down.

All of that is stealing in its myriad forms, from unjust enrichment to copyright infringement. Commission of larceny is not the definition of stealing.
In other words, if I legally buy Leopard, can really Apple tell me (with any legal value) where to install it?.
This really isn't rocket science. You haven't bought anything legally if you ignore its terms. If I sell you a piece of land only if you agree not to build higher than two stories, and you ignore that, you will be liable. If I offer a product for teachers only, and you buy but aren't a teacher, you will be liable. This is no different.
last i checked, this is not a professional setting and i intentiaonally choose not to write in a professional manner...get it? good thought so
No.
seriously, as i said, some cases have proven its not enforceable.
No. Some provisions are not enforceable in some license agreements. Just like some provisions in some contracts are not enforceable. How you make the colossally ignorant leap from there to "SLAs are not enforceable" boggles the mind. That's tantamount to saying that all contracts are not legally binding because some of them are overturned in court.
also, im not a child so once again get off your high horse and grow up
Then please, for the love of Aisha, talk like an adult.
where is the theft?
Who said anything about theft?
if apple does not want people to BUY their software, then they shouldnt sell it in the open at places like best buy.
Buying the software isn't the issue. The issue is people acting like they've bought more than they have.
 

djellison

macrumors 68020
Feb 2, 2007
2,229
4
Pasadena CA
I meant o disrespect, I apologize if it came across that way.

Look guys, the Opera ban for the iPhone is the very reason many of us are fed up with Apple's business practices.

Another example. The USB extension lead that comes with Apple keyboards - design specifically to only work with the keyboard an no other USB device. Why would you do that? What possible benefit is that? I just discovered "oh - that USB extension lead might be useful - what the..... I CAN'T USE IT ON ANYTHING ELSE"

Another example, a proprietary port on new laptops for displays (and don't say it's a standard. If it were a standard then there would be $4 adaptors on Ebay). Asking £90 so I can plug it into my 30" HP, then a projector is disgusting.

Another example, dropping a 50 pence remote from a £1700 laptop to save money.

Another example, charging £1150 for a consumer laptop that has no firewire port.

Another example, putting a very cheap and very nasty display in said consumer laptop.

Apple is going too far in too many places. I'm getting sick of it.

Doug
 

ppc750fx

macrumors 65816
Aug 20, 2008
1,308
4
don't say it's a standard. If it were a standard then there would be $4 adaptors on Ebay). Asking £90 so I can plug it into my 30" HP, then a projector is disgusting.

The cables aren't $180. The most expensive one is $100, and the other two (DVI and VGA) are $30.


Another example, putting a very cheap and very nasty display in said consumer laptop.

The MacBook screens are hit and miss. I have a Samsung panel in my MB, and it's not really that bad. In real world usage, I've never run up against a visible limitation of it. I'm sure if I took a picture from an extreme angle, it would suck -- but I always sit directly in front my my laptop, so that's not a big deal. I also have got it calibrated with the right ColorSync profile (the stock one is atrocious), so that probably helps. There are a lot of sub-par MB screens though. About what I'd expect from a $1000 laptop, to be honest.

If it's the use of TN panels you've got a problem with, then you might want to take a look at the other manufacturers -- AFAIK only IBM ever shipped an IPS-based laptop, and they stopped a couple years ago.
 
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