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An operating system needs to be able to support any hardware.There needs to be a system in place where any piece of hardware can be used via something like like a driver.This creates a market for hardware and is good for everyone.

However, apple is not interested in "good for everyone" or having a market that it has no control over.

Imagine if Microsoft had done what apple is doing,years ago. The computing world would not exist as it does today.And hardware would not be where it is now.

Apple , get your head out of your ass and simply come clean that you are not capable of writing a general purpose operating system.And the next time you have a bragging festival about how much better OSX is than xp or vista, don't forget to mention how restrictive it is and how you saved many years of time and money by not even trying to support anything but you own expensive custom hardware.

Apple and what they do restrict trade and stifle technology, they should stop doing that or get a kicking in court.

Imo, Apple have become the bad guys.
 
What if Apple loses?

Then Apple will have to open up OS X which means lost sales in hardware.

They'll have to recuperate the money by:
1. Raise the price of OS X.
2. Jack up the price of all apple products.
3. Charge more for the already problematic mobileme.
4. Cost down, think more glitchy iPhones, hotter MacBooks, and Mac Pros that fall apart.

Who loses? The mac faithful, not the pc-guys who suddenly find mac attractive but can't afford/too stingy to cough up the money for macs.
 
Then Apple will have to open up OS X which means lost sales in hardware.

They'll have to recuperate the money by:
1. Raise the price of OS X.
2. Jack up the price of all apple products.
3. Charge more for the already problematic mobileme.
4. Cost down, think more glitchy iPhones, hotter MacBooks, and Mac Pros that fall apart.

Who loses? The mac faithful, not the pc-guys who suddenly find mac attractive but can't afford/too stingy to cough up the money for macs.

1 to 4 sound exactly like the sort of thing ANY company has to do that is not a monopoly.You have described in 4 points the effects of competition.

Is this an open market or not? if apple never needs to do 1,2,3 or 4 then clearly not.

So if its not an open market , what is it?
 
As its stands, it's possible to buy OS X, modify it slightly, install it on a PC and then spend ages trying to get everything to work as it should.

No, doing that violate the EULA. Technically you could do it, but not legally.

If Apple were to lose, would they be forced to modify their software, provide support, drivers etc. etc.? If so, it would cost them millions.

And? They're not exactly short of change.

Even if Apple did lose, I suspect they'd just put a sticker on the box saying it's possible, but not recommended to install on non-Mac hardware. Sure, they'd alter it so it just about managed to install on a PC, but there would be no drivers, no after sales product support and all OS X updates could be Mac only. It would an 'at your own risk' purchase.

That's basically putting faulty software on the shelves, knowing it's incompatible, untested and unreliable, and would violate a lot of trade laws. Trading standards would shut them down in the UK.

Do you think MS would have lost a court case 5 years ago if someone had sued because Windows didn't work on PowerPC Macs?

It kinda doesn't still, it has a few quirks, DirectX being one of them. The difference is, they are not openly making Windows available for the Mac.

Anyhow, I found this quite funny:

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/03/26/apple_safari_eula_paradox/

So apple can break their own EULA but their end users can't. Heh.
 
An operating system needs to be able to support any hardware.There needs to be a system in place where any piece of hardware can be used via something like like a driver.This creates a market for hardware and is good for everyone.

However, apple is not interested in "good for everyone" or having a market that it has no control over.

Imagine if Microsoft had done what apple is doing,years ago. The computing world would not exist as it does today.And hardware would not be where it is now.

Apple , get your head out of your ass and simply come clean that you are not capable of writing a general purpose operating system.And the next time you have a bragging festival about how much better OSX is than xp or vista, don't forget to mention how restrictive it is and how you saved many years of time and money by not even trying to support anything but you own expensive custom hardware.

Apple and what they do restrict trade and stifle technology, they should stop doing that or get a kicking in court.

Imo, Apple have become the bad guys.

As has been said before, the legal issues that matter here are not open to anybody's personal feelings about what Apple should do "for the good of everyone."

Apple has always been about a closed system - because it works. It benefits about 90% of the users out there, with exceptions of course, for Apple to keep a closed system, because the software will work that much better on a limited set of hardware.

And no, operating systems do not need to support every piece of hardware, when you attempt to do that, you end up with the failure that is Vista.

I understand that people want choices, but sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to choose your hardware that bad, you can choose XP or Vista or Linux. You still have a choice, but you can't always get everything that you want.
 
LOL...

Apple is not a monopoly, you have other computers to choose from...

What's next? The iPhone? :eek:

An operating system needs to be able to support any hardware.There needs to be a system in place where any piece of hardware can be used via something like like a driver.This creates a market for hardware and is good for everyone.

However, apple is not interested in "good for everyone" or having a market that it has no control over.

Imagine if Microsoft had done what apple is doing,years ago. The computing world would not exist as it does today.And hardware would not be where it is now.

Apple , get your head out of your ass and simply come clean that you are not capable of writing a general purpose operating system.And the next time you have a bragging festival about how much better OSX is than xp or vista, don't forget to mention how restrictive it is and how you saved many years of time and money by not even trying to support anything but you own expensive custom hardware.

Apple and what they do restrict trade and stifle technology, they should stop doing that or get a kicking in court.

Imo, Apple have become the bad guys.

ooooooh, "bad guys"..... with what? 5% market share??? :rollseyes:
 
Anyhow, I found this quite funny:

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2008/03/26/apple_safari_eula_paradox/

So apple can break their own EULA but their end users can't. Heh.

So? Somebody decided they wanted to go home a little bit early and copied/pasted the EULA from Safari for Mac, these things happen.

LOL...

Apple is not a monopoly, you have other computers to choose from...

Even if Apple was a monopoly, there is nothing inherently illegal about that. When you start using your monopoly to leverage something else that it becomes a problem.

If Apple were to make it so the only browser you could use was Safari, then that would be an anticompetitive practice and subject to anti-trust proceedings.

There's a huge legal difference.
 
So? Somebody decided they wanted to go home a little bit early and copied/pasted the EULA from Safari for Mac, these things happen.

Well it shows how useless and irrelevant their EULA is, if they can wash over it and copy and paste it from what is an Operating System and apply it to each software. They've actually removed the iTunes and Quicktime EULA, http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/itunes.pdf, linked from http://images.apple.com/quicktime/download/

Most companies have lawyers that sit there fussing over every line over hours and hours to make sure it is right. They may actually be breaking the law at the moment with that being unavailable too... /me gets out a huge spyglass...

If they can release it on a whim, it doesn't bode well.

Even if Apple was a monopoly, there is nothing inherently illegal about that. When you start using your monopoly to leverage something else that it becomes a problem.

It's not about being a monopoly, it's about being anti-competitive. The two tend to go hand in hand, a monopoly is very highly regulated. Apple aren't.

If Apple were to make it so the only browser you could use was Safari, then that would be an anticompetitive practice and subject to anti-trust proceedings.

I think if you find that you get safari by default preinstalled with OS X, that's about the same situation that got Microsoft in troubled waters, with having IE readily installed with Windows X. Same scenario with WMP for that matter. Real Media, et al, went ballistic and successfully resulted with Microsoft being fined 496m euros if I recall correctly.

There's a huge legal difference.

There's always a fine, and very blurry line between them both.


Sound like a troll again, so I'll end it with apple ftw.
 
the bottom line of this is that psystar wins this case. You are going to see the market flooded with crappy apple knockoffs that will make Mac OS X look like crap cause it is running on bad hardware. Apple Software is designed to work on apple hardware, nothing else.

if people are putting apple software on PC hardware, and it doesnt work right. All of a sudden, people are going to start complaining that it doesnt work on their PC and start stating that apple makes crappy software

Well now if that is really the case then maybe OS X is no better than VISTA? But thats not the case. Your statement is a very poorly thought out one. OS X is OS X. It either works on the hardware or it does not. The development community and hardware manufacturers will ensure that it works fine on dells, lenovos, sonys etc. How is it going to look like crap exactly???
 
the bottom line of this is that psystar wins this case. You are going to see the market flooded with <delete>crappy apple knockoffs</delete> competitors join the market that will make their own systems, which inadvertently may result in Mac OS X look like crap cause it is running on unapproved hardware. Apple Software is designed to work on apple approved hardware, nothing else which is kinda anti-competitive, blocking out other hardware manufacturers.

if people are putting apple software on PC hardware which is identical to the hardware you get on a normal mac setup, and it doesnt work right due to apple not wanting to support it, maybe because they don't gain from it financially as much as they do with ATI or NVidia. All of a sudden, people are going to start complaining that it doesnt work on their PC and start stating that apple makes crappy incompatible and bug ridden software.

This is why I rather pay the extra money for the apple cause I know the hardware is <delete>incredible and works really well</delete> ordinary, but has just had drivers written for it by the approved hardware manufacturer.

I just fixed that so it makes sense.
 
If Apple were to make it so the only browser you could use was Safari, then that would be an anticompetitive practice and subject to anti-trust proceedings.

Ok so apple now makes it so the only hardware you can use with OS X is their own. Same thing as what you just said. They are subject to anti-trust proceedings and they will lose if it goes to court.

Its a win win people. Why would you not all want this? I got news for you also, apple is filthy rich. They are one of the richest companies in the world and that money did not come from computers. This will only make them more popular and mainstream and might actually get their foot in the door at large corporate entities. If you are not for this you are not using your brain. Yeah, apple tried this in the 90s and Steve pulled out. But back then all they sold was computers. Now apple gets rich off of ipods, iphones, appstore, itunes. Computers are an afterthought. Mac mini...
 
Ok so apple now makes it so the only hardware you can use with OS X is their own.


Apple don't make hardware....


img.php
 
Man, it's deja voo all over again:p. Where have I seen this situation before? Don't tell me ..... no, I've got it! It was IBM!! This has already been done, Apple. My money is on the little guy. Apples for the masses!!

Rich :cool:
 
Well it shows how useless and irrelevant their EULA is, if they can wash over it and copy and paste it from what is an Operating System and apply it to each software. They've actually removed the iTunes and Quicktime EULA, http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/itunes.pdf, linked from http://images.apple.com/quicktime/download/

It's there for me http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/itunes.pdf

EDIT: And here's Quicktime's, which I got to by clicking your link to the Quicktime page http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/quicktime7.pdf

It's not about being a monopoly, it's about being anti-competitive. The two tend to go hand in hand, a monopoly is very highly regulated. Apple aren't.

But not all monopolies are anti-competitive.

I think if you find that you get safari by default preinstalled with OS X, that's about the same situation that got Microsoft in troubled waters, with having IE readily installed with Windows X. Same scenario with WMP for that matter. Real Media, et al, went ballistic and successfully resulted with Microsoft being fined 496m euros if I recall correctly.

No, the problem there was that MS was leveraging technology in the OS to make IE and WMP better, but would not allow anyone else to use the same built-in technologies. (Kinda simplified, but same idea.)

Ok so apple now makes it so the only hardware you can use with OS X is their own. Same thing as what you just said. They are subject to anti-trust proceedings and they will lose if it goes to court.

Making software only available for certain hardware is NOT anti-competitive. If it were, I would be able to run any software on any hardware. Period. BlackBerry OS on my 360? They'd have to make it work, otherwise it is an anti-trust? Come on, look up anti-trust and monopoly.

Its a win win people. Why would you not all want this? I got news for you also, apple is filthy rich. They are one of the richest companies in the world and that money did not come from computers. This will only make them more popular and mainstream and might actually get their foot in the door at large corporate entities. If you are not for this you are not using your brain. Yeah, apple tried this in the 90s and Steve pulled out. But back then all they sold was computers. Now apple gets rich off of ipods, iphones, appstore, itunes. Computers are an afterthought. Mac mini...

Why wouldn't I want this? Because trying to support every piece of hardware on the market leads to unstability, which makes for a less-than-friendly user experience.

Apple don't make hardware....

They do in the same sense that Dell, HP and Sony do. No, they don't own any factories.
 
...Apple maliciously cripples the install of the OS on any system that does not contain an apple ID.

Much like Dell that gives you restore disks (3 separate disks, 1 for the OS, 1 for the drivers, and 1 for the loaded down add on apps/trialware). While the Dell OS disk says it is the operating system only, and they give you the product key (and well, on my sticker it does not say OEM) - if you even try to look at the disk, you get an error saying that this is not a Dell and it can only be used on Dell's.

Also, what about the other companies like HP, Gateway, Etc that are now turning to not even giving you the OS on a disk, yet the price of the OS is buried in the cost (I once built my own equivelant PC for $400 - the cost of Windows 2000, bumped the price to $650). You are paying for an OS, that you do not even get the disks. You get a lousy restore partition that is on the same hard drive, and are told to make your own backup of the restore partition, and you only get one chance (better have 12 CD's ready). i know many people (and it happened to me on one machine, which I immediately returned the next day), where the process got 4 or so CD's into it and it crashed; either due to a bad CD or something else. Then if you try the process again, it pops an error stating you blew your one chance and that you already made a copy. Oh, and you only get that option upon booting up for the first time.

You are then forced to buy the CD's from HP for $35 or more, Dell charges $60 ($30 per CD - although I yelled at them enough to drop the price to $10 each for me).

So Apple is not the only one who cripples.

I think Apple has everyright to sell its OS X for Apple only.

This is funny as MS is now going to do end-to-end solutions and work with/certify a handfull of hardware manufactorers. Watch, you may be able to by Windows of the Shelve, but the Eula will say - Only for installation on a Dell, HP, Acer, or whatever....... just watch. Ballmer is that nuts.
 
But not all monopolies are anti-competitive.

Very true, but they must have a competitor, which is why Microsoft actually own a very large portion of Apple shares. Apple were going downhill, and Microsoft helped save them because if Apple went down, Microsoft would have no competitors and therefore would be monopolising the market.

No, the problem there was that MS was leveraging technology in the OS to make IE and WMP better, but would not allow anyone else to use the same built-in technologies. (Kinda simplified, but same idea.)

I think if you read into it, you'd fine Real, and even Apple in regards to Quicktime were unhappy that having the software readily installed gave users the idea that they would have no need to look elsewhere for these alternative products therefore, eliminating competitors indirectly.

It's something that really peeved off firefox/netscape.

Making software only available for certain hardware is NOT anti-competitive.

True, Logic, ProTools, they both do it.

If it were, I would be able to run any software on any hardware. Period. BlackBerry OS on my 360?

That's taking it out of context. It's like saying I'd be able to run Autodesk Maya on my PSP. Maybe, it could be done, but it's not a good idea.

They'd have to make it work, otherwise it is an anti-trust? Come on, look up anti-trust and monopoly.

No, it's not anti-trust. It's selling goods not fit for sale. It violates trade laws.

Why wouldn't I want this? Because trying to support every piece of hardware on the market leads to unstability, which makes for a less-than-friendly user experience.

Hardware vendors create the drivers, it has nothing to do with apple.

They do in the same sense that Dell, HP and Sony do. No, they don't own any factories.

Thing is though, Dell, HP and Sony provide you with a choice of OS's. They can't provide you with OS X as an option because Apple won't allow them to.

If you ever owned one of the above, you'd see that they come with all the drivers from all the hardware manufacturers on a separate partition, if not a recovery DVD/CD Rom for whatever specification/configuration of hardware you choose to have.

All those you mention would probably be more than happy to support OS X and provide you with all the drivers you would need to have it running smoothly. Apple forbids them from doing so. That's what is anti-competitive. No one can sell OS X hardware. Psystar are, and apple seeing competition, are trying to send them a cease and desist order for dipping their toes into Apples reservoir.
 
This is funny as MS is now going to do end-to-end solutions and work with/certify a handfull of hardware manufactorers. Watch, you may be able to by Windows of the Shelve, but the Eula will say - Only for installation on a Dell, HP, Acer, or whatever....... just watch. Ballmer is that nuts.

That may be in the US, but in Europe after-sales tie-ups are illegal, definitely in France.

It's why the iPhone was not allowed to be only operated by a sole Network Operator in French grounds.


http://www.intomobile.com/2008/02/2...ed-to-sell-unlocked-iphones-in-australia.html
 
Very true, but they must have a competitor, which is why Microsoft actually own a very large portion of Apple shares. Apple were going downhill, and Microsoft helped save them because if Apple went down, Microsoft would have no competitors and therefore would be monopolising the market.

Not anymore, they sold those shares years ago. And they were non-voting, which means MS had no say at all.

List of AAPL Shareholders

Besides, Apple has plenty of competitors, Sony, HP, Gateway, Dell, etc.

I think if you read into it, you'd fine Real, and even Apple in regards to Quicktime were unhappy that having the software readily installed gave users the idea that they would have no need to look elsewhere for these alternative products therefore, eliminating competitors indirectly.

It's something that really peeved off firefox/netscape.

Being peeved about something and it being illegal are two different things.

True, Logic, ProTools, they both do it.

Agreed. And they aren't the only ones.

That's taking it out of context. It's like saying I'd be able to run Autodesk Maya on my PSP. Maybe, it could be done, but it's not a good idea.

Ok. My example was a little extreme, but the idea is the same, yours might be more accurate.

No, it's not anti-trust. It's selling goods not fit for sale. It violates trade laws.

Hardware vendors create the drivers, it has nothing to do with apple.

True, but who are the consumers going to run to? Apple or their HW manufacturer. I've dealt with problems in the windows world, my HP machine would randomly restart, HP said it was software - call MS, MS said it was hardware - call HP. Same thing will happen, and OS X will be reduced to a steaming pile of crap in the eyes of a number of consumers that bought a cheap "mac."

Thing is though, Dell, HP and Sony provide you with a choice of OS's. They can't provide you with OS X as an option because Apple won't allow them to.

Do they? I though Dell was the only one with Linux as an option (preinstalled).

If you ever owned one of the above, you'd see that they come with all the drivers from all the hardware manufacturers on a separate partition, if not a recovery DVD/CD Rom for whatever specification/configuration of hardware you choose to have.

All those you mention would probably be more than happy to support OS X and provide you with all the drivers you would need to have it running smoothly. Apple forbids them from doing so. That's what is anti-competitive. No one can sell OS X hardware. Psystar are, and apple seeing competition, are trying to send them a cease and desist order for dipping their toes into Apples reservoir.

It's Apple's choice as to whether they want to license OS X or not, not the government's and not the peoples'. The problem with Psystar is that they supposedly modified OS X in order for it to work on their hardware. (Copyright infringement) They are advertising the machines next to an OS X box, saying that it is OS X compatible, and comes preinstalled. (Trademark infringement)

Since they are a no name company who probably doesn't have enough sales to become an Apple reseller, they probably didn't bother to ask for Apple's permission to distribute OS X, let alone license it. That is where they are different than every other PC maker out there. They were stupid, and ignored laws.
 
Not anymore, they sold those shares years ago. And they were non-voting, which means MS had no say at all.

List of AAPL Shareholders

Totally correct.

Besides, Apple has plenty of competitors, Sony, HP, Gateway, Dell, etc.

Not necessarily so, no one can (without breaking the apple EULA) offer OS X legally, apple own that on their own.

Being peeved about something and it being illegal are two different things.

Unfortunately, Real were peeved, they went to the EU Commission, and they found that bundling software was anti-competitive and very illegal.

True, but who are the consumers going to run to? Apple or their HW manufacturer. I've dealt with problems in the windows world, my HP machine would randomly restart, HP said it was software - call MS, MS said it was hardware - call HP.

Most machines come with warranties, and an option like the Apple Care plan, they usually help. Very few actually go to Microsoft with complaints in regards to drivers.

Same thing will happen, and OS X will be reduced to a steaming pile of crap in the eyes of a number of consumers that bought a cheap "mac."

If they opened up, it'd be just a cheap PC. But still, it could be a very expensive, quality built PC. A mac is essentially a PC, the only real difference being it's reliance on EFI rather than the legacy BIOS system used in the PC market. They're merging ground as hardware peaks.

It's still surprising, AMD have been hush about not being effectively locked out on any apple computer running OS X.


Do they? I though Dell was the only one with Linux as an option (preinstalled).

They can do, but not usually for the average Joe.

It's Apple's choice as to whether they want to license OS X or not, not the government's and not the peoples'.

Microsoft thought that and it made Bill Gates cry.

The problem with Psystar is that they supposedly modified OS X in order for it to work on their hardware. (<delete>Copyright</delete> EULA infringement)

They're just using open source software to run it properly.

Psystar said:
Psystar embraces the Open Source community. We're all about open computing and the idea that software should be customizable, portable, and available. We use Open Source software in the Open Computers like PC EFI by Netkas, the GRUB bootloader, Ubuntu Linux, and many other Open Source efforts out there. We use Open software in our PsyStor SAN by Sun and IBM. We use the Linux kernel in the Psystar Gateway Router. Psystar will promote Open Source projects in every way possible. To the Open Source community: thank you.

They don't modify Leopard as far as I've understood.

They are advertising the machines next to an OS X box, saying that it is OS X compatible, and comes preinstalled. (<delete>Trademark</delete> EULA infringement)

It is preinstalled, works fine, and even updates fine. All software does work, as you will be able to see on the Psystar forums.

Psystar modetor said:
I recently brought three systems up-to-date using Apple's "Software Update", and I didn't have any problem at all.

Everything is working just as one might expect from an Apple Intel-based product.

I'm sure Apple will eventually include a "silver bullet" in one of its updates, but so far that has not been the case.

Since they are a no name company who probably doesn't have enough sales to become an Apple reseller, they probably didn't bother to ask for Apple's permission to distribute OS X, let alone license it.

They didn't need to ask because apple's EULA violates a lot of laws.

That is where they are different than every other PC maker out there. They were stupid, and ignored laws.

A EULA is not a law, it's a usage restriction. If a EULA is held as illegal, you can choose to ignore it. That's what Psystar have done.

Anyhow, they can overcome that EULA by just sticking an apple sticker on their boxes saying "Not a product of apple" next to it. It'd technically be an apple labeled machine then. Technically.
 
So would we not be here if Apple didn't actually sell OS X in a box on a shelf?

Like the PS3 or XBOX360 analogy. If you bought a Mac (the hardware) and it came with software to run it....and you could get upgrades to it via some other means (download, iTunes, etc).....would this be a different situation?

-Kevin
 
So would we not be here if Apple didn't actually sell OS X in a box on a shelf?

Like the PS3 or XBOX360 analogy. If you bought a Mac (the hardware) and it came with software to run it....and you could get upgrades to it via some other means (download, iTunes, etc).....would this be a different situation?

-Kevin

That would be fine and legal.

But if you went out and shopped around, got the same hardware yourself, exact models, put it all together yourself for cheaper, you won't be allowed to run OS X on it.
 
I personally don't want to see OS X open to the masses and the 3rd party developers. I don't want to see the Dell's and HP's selling hardware that runs OS X. Why, because they won't do it right. They won't.

Look at Microsoft. Does anyone here honestly think that the engineers at Microsoft are purposefully making a bad product in Vista on their own. Hell no. The problem is not Vista, it's the model in which the software is distributed. Microsoft HAS TO rely on 3rd party developers to write drivers that will work with Vista. 90% of the time, this is where the problem is....not in the core code of the OS.

Microsoft even publicly stated that the majority of the problems with Vista at launch were due to NVidia drivers.

If anyone thinks that OS X wouldn't suffer the same fate, you are living in a dream world.

Keep the OS tied to the hardware. I'd love to see Microsoft do the same, then we'd really have a battle on the best OS.

-Kevin
 
First, copyright does not give Apple all rights over how you *use* the software. If I buy a copy of OSX, I'm free to sell that same copy on Ebay. What I can't do is buy 1 copy of OSX and make copies of it and sell each new copy on Ebay per copyright law. Pystar is buying each copy of OSX that they sell with their machines.

Second, what Pystar is challenging are clauses in the EULA. Each clause in the EULA is not necessarily binding. For example, if Apple said that in order to use their software you had to give them your next born child that clause in the EULA would more than likely be found unenforceable and illegal. What Pystar is banking on is that the clause that says that OSX can only be installed on Apple labeled hardware will also be found to be infringing on various rights that someone receives when they purchase something. As mentioned earlier there is already is some precedence on this matter that goes against Apple.

I'm guessing that Apple (and other software makers) don't want to go to court over the EULA issue. The last thing they want is to have a court spell out exactly what can and can't be in a EULA. This tells me that software makers know that there are questionable clauses in the EULA and they would like to have them stay.
 
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