Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

MrMatt138

macrumors newbie
Aug 28, 2008
12
0
Philly Suburbs
ok ok ok...

My definition of an "upgrade" is an addition of software which requires owning an earlier version of software to be installed.

My definition of "full version" is software which can be installed on it's own, with no impedance based on previous purchases.

From a leeeeeeeggggaaallll perspective, yes, you are all correct. It's bull*hit but you're right and I apologize for muddying the waters with a technicality.

If Psystar wins anything, apple will just start serializing the OS and that'll suck.
 

pdjudd

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2007
4,037
65
Plymouth, MN
From a leeeeeeeggggaaallll perspective, yes, you are all correct. It's bull*hit but you're right and I apologize for muddying the waters with a technicality.

The big sticking point is that your opinions are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what your definition of "upgrade" is. What is reliant is what the law says.

According to the EULA, Psystar cannot engage in a business model that utilizes the Mac OS without Apple approving it since their trademarks would have to be utilized.

Point two is that despite what people claim, EULA's have been held up and business have to follow them.
 

pdjudd

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2007
4,037
65
Plymouth, MN
LOL. I think the big sticking point is your opinions are irrelevant. Thats your favorite word "IRRELEVANT".
Personal insults like that will not win you friends or arguments. And the same comment points both ways.

At least I have separated facts and my own personal opinions.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,566
This is the point: do you agree, that I can legally install a retail copy of OS X on a MaBook without being in possession of a license to a previous version of OS X?

You could, by going a rather complicated route. You could buy a MacBook, which comes with OS X. You sell your copy of MacOS X to me. I have no computer that I can install it on, but I collect versions of MacOS X, just like other people collect stamps, so the DVDs and everything else end up on my bookshelf. Obviously you now have to remove MacOS X from your computer and all backup copies, and you install say Linux instead. After a year you have enough of Linux and want to go back to MacOS X. You buy a retail copy of OS X and install it. Perfectly legal, because your MacBook is an "Apple-labeled computer".

What you need to install MacOS X legally is not a previous version of MacOS X, but an Apple-labeled computer. In a hypothetical situation, if a few years ago Apple had sold a few copies of 10.0 or 10.1 to owners of the legal Macintosh clones from the late 90s, then the owners of these licenses would not be able to legally upgrade their non-Apple computers to 10.5. Or if Apple started selling MacPros with Linux or Windows pre-installed instead of MacOS X, you could legally install the $129 retail version of MacOS X on these machines.

Apple permits installation of the retail of Leopard on a Apple Branded computer with specifc system requirements. How does that not specify the type of computers that you can sell them on? You are already restricted to items that Apple sells. Thats step one. The installer won't work though if your computer doesn't meet the requirements.

The license actually _allows_ installation on any Apple-labeled computer, including older ones that are not supported. So buying Leopard and getting it to run on an older, not-supported G4, is perfectly legal for you to do. Apple will just not help you if anything goes wrong.
 

kiang

macrumors regular
Apr 8, 2007
129
0
What if the EULA was made available to the customer before the product was purchased. Leopards EULA is readily available online. Plus I doubt that I can get out a contract (especially If I was a business) simply because I failed to read it. If that were the case, no contract could be validated.

A contract requires you to sign a form, stating you have read the full contract. Buying a product however doesn't require anything like that.

But as you stated, this is indeed irrelevant.
 

pdjudd

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2007
4,037
65
Plymouth, MN
The license actually _allows_ installation on any Apple-labeled computer, including older ones that are not supported. So buying Leopard and getting it to run on an older, not-supported G4, is perfectly legal for you to do. Apple will just not help you if anything goes wrong.

My post was primarily was referring to supported installs since the hackintoshes are also "unsupported" as well (for a different reason). I did not know that Apple allowed you to install the OS on an incompatible Mac system. Interesting. Still doesn't change the Apple branded Mac point though, an interesting side point.
 

pdjudd

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2007
4,037
65
Plymouth, MN
A contract requires you to sign a form, stating you have read the full contract. Buying a product however doesn't require anything like that.

But as you stated, this is indeed irrelevant.

Contacts can be verbally agreed to
. And while they can be difficult to prove in some cases, they are just as valid. Anyway clicking on "Accept" is a sign of agreement between you and Apple. The only way you can proceed is to agree. That's why EULA's can be rejected and why people have gotten refunds on them.

Of course this doesn't mean anything for Psystar or any other Mac Cloner.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
I think this little spat could have a bad outcome. Most of the people that support Psystar's argument dream starry-eyed of a day when they can install OS X with full support (from who?) on any PC hardware they want.

The reality of it is, if Apple loses either lawsuit, they will implement draconian measures to insure that it is physically impossible to run OS X on PCs, even if that means neutering or even getting rid of BootCamp. Mark my words, no good can come from a Psystar victory. Not for Mac users anyway.

Why do I agree with you all the time? What is wrong with me? ;)

Seriously, this is another case of being careful what you wish for. Not that Psystar has a snowball's chance in hell of winning anything here, but I still find it somewhat shocking that anyone would actually hope that they can win. This would be a disaster for Apple, and it would set a bizarre precedent besides.

And if Pystar is expecting Apple to give them some cash to make them go away, then I suspect that they're also dreaming. There's a lot of it about.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,566
You could buy all the broken Macs on ebay for their cases, start making those systems, sell them commercially and find out from Apple legal.

I'd say 50%, if you replace more than 50% of the components, then it is no longer an Apple system.

It is an interesting question. Personally, I think it would be a really cool hack if you bought an original 128K Macintosh (the one with hundred signatures inside the case, not a MacPlus), and put in modern computer hardware so it can run Leopard. If you replace the built-in CRT monitor with a nine inch LCD screen, you should have plenty of space for a quad core processor and a huge hard drive. No idea if it is legal, but it would be cool.
 

r.j.s

Moderator emeritus
Mar 7, 2007
15,026
52
Texas
It is an interesting question. Personally, I think it would be a really cool hack if you bought an original 128K Macintosh (the one with hundred signatures inside the case, not a MacPlus), and put in modern computer hardware so it can run Leopard. If you replace the built-in CRT monitor with a nine inch LCD screen, you should have plenty of space for a quad core processor and a huge hard drive. No idea if it is legal, but it would be cool.

That would be quite interesting, and a quick call to Apple legal might answer the question for you.
 
Most people here seem to agree that you can legally install OS X on an Apple branded computer.

Is there any mention of running it on an Apple branded computer?

Can I take the hard drive out of my MacBook Pro (after legally installing OS X on it), put the HD in my Eee 1000H and (after installing some drivers) run it legally?
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,566
WRONG! intellectual property is NOT being violated here: their is no illegal spread of the material: a psystar system comes with a legit OSX license. THe EULA on the other hand is being violated, but EULAs aren't necessarily completely legal. I am a fair judge would rule apple's restriction isn't legal, because their is no technical reason for the restriction.

Actually, a Psystar computer doesn't come with a valid MacOS X license. According to the EULA, breach of the EULA terminates the license. Automatically.

I cannot understand your argument about "Apple's restriction isn't legal because there is no technical reason for the restriction". If you rent a house, there is no technical reason why you couldn't stay there without paying rent. The landlord will still throw you out, rightfully, and any judge will agree with him. Apple adds that restriction because they want to. Since Apple owns all the rights of MacOS X they are perfectly allowed to do so. They need no other reason.
 

pdjudd

macrumors 601
Jun 19, 2007
4,037
65
Plymouth, MN
Can I take the hard drive out of my MacBook Pro (after legally installing OS X on it), put the HD in my Eee 1000H and (after installing some drivers) run it legally?

Personally?? If you could give it to work (which I don't think you can without modifying the source) I would say maybe yes unless it constituted transferring the license illegally. If you are talking about as a business than the answer is no.
 

Wondercow

macrumors 6502a
Aug 27, 2008
559
365
Toronto, Canada
A contract requires you to sign a form, stating you have read the full contract. Buying a product however doesn't require anything like that.

Not true at all. A contract requires offer, acceptance, and consideration (a benefit) for all parties. Verbal contracts are just as binding as their written counterparts, but a written agreement will supersede a verbal one.

Buying a product is a contract between you and the store.
 

r.j.s

Moderator emeritus
Mar 7, 2007
15,026
52
Texas
Most people here seem to agree that you can legally install OS X on an Apple branded computer.

Is there any mention of running it on an Apple branded computer?

Can I take the hard drive out of my MacBook Pro (after legally installing OS X on it), put the HD in my Eee 1000H and (after installing some drivers) run it legally?

Mac OS X SLA said:
A. Single Use. This License allows you to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-labeled computer at a time. You agree not to install, use
or run
the Apple Software on any non-Apple-labeled computer, or to enable others to do so. This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one
computer at a time, and you may not make the Apple Software available over a network where it could be used by multiple computers at the same time.

No. (Emphasis mine)
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Actually, a Psystar computer doesn't come with a valid MacOS X license. According to the EULA, breach of the EULA terminates the license. Automatically.

I cannot understand your argument about "Apple's restriction isn't legal because there is no technical reason for the restriction". If you rent a house, there is no technical reason why you couldn't stay there without paying rent. The landlord will still throw you out, rightfully, and any judge will agree with him. Apple adds that restriction because they want to. Since Apple owns all the rights of MacOS X they are perfectly allowed to do so. They need no other reason.

Right. But more than just the EULA is in play here. By selling a computer with OSX, Psystar is trading on Apple's copyrights and trademarks. This is a big, flashing red neon no-no.
 

bokdol

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2002
897
35
VA
You could, by going a rather complicated route. You could buy a MacBook, which comes with OS X. You sell your copy of MacOS X to me.

one problem is that under the licensing agreement you are not suppose to separate the bundled restore cds with the hardware.

so in effect ever mac has to have a system on it
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0248.JPG
    IMG_0248.JPG
    807.1 KB · Views: 69

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,566
Most people here seem to agree that you can legally install OS X on an Apple branded computer.

Is there any mention of running it on an Apple branded computer?

Can I take the hard drive out of my MacBook Pro (after legally installing OS X on it), put the HD in my Eee 1000H and (after installing some drivers) run it legally?

I think putting the hard drive into the Eee 1000H would constitute "installing". We can now discuss about the legalities of installing MacOS X on an external drive and connecting it to various computers :)
 

r.j.s

Moderator emeritus
Mar 7, 2007
15,026
52
Texas
I think putting the hard drive into the Eee 1000H would constitute "installing". We can now discuss about the legalities of installing MacOS X on an external drive and connecting it to various computers :)

See my post above ...
 
It looks like I'm back to my 'buying an original Mac Pro logic board and a load of generic hardware' idea... technically it's an Apple system if I use a Mac Pro case and the same processor that a Mac Pro would have in it if bought from Apple...

Or I just stick with my Eee 1000H that happily has OS X installed on it (and no, I didn't take the hard drive from my MBP)
 

matticus008

macrumors 68040
Jan 16, 2005
3,330
1
Bay Area, CA
The purchased macbook
You've sold the MacBook. Of course you can't use it once you've sold it (without permission from the owner). Your example is not making any sense.
Based on the EULA. I'm talking about the printed materials of the OS X software. Here is the relevant section:
The printed materials of the OS X software comprise a copy of the SLA. A link to a printable copy would also suffice.
Note that they explicitly exclude the Boot ROM, so the hardware is not a part of the bundle.
Naturally. What's your point?
What you are saying is directly contradicting the EULA. License transference is not automatic with the transfer of the Macbook, but depend on additionel conditions.
No. When you sell the Mac, it is automatically licensed to operate OS X. It is not, however, automatically equipped with OS X if it was separated by an independent sale. The new owner, despite the machine eligibility, is not himself eligible to own a copy of OS X until he purchases it and agrees to its terms.
The macbook is NOT the license. The license is the license.
A simple tautology. The license is not a physical item at all. The license does not apply without a valid license agreement, and thus when you sell your copy of OS X, the latter is broken, and you must reacquire a copy by purchase. The license which makes you eligible to make that purchase is the fact that you are an owner of a compatible Apple system.
In other words, the license does not automatically follow the hardware. Thus, it is not an upgrade etc. ad nauseum.
The license agreement does not automatically follow the computer. A license to install OS X does. I have no idea what you are indicating by your improper use of 'ad nauseum' here, either.
You could, by going a rather complicated route. You could buy a MacBook, which comes with OS X. You sell your copy of MacOS X to me. I have no computer that I can install it on, but I collect versions of MacOS X, just like other people collect stamps, so the DVDs and everything else end up on my bookshelf. Obviously you now have to remove MacOS X from your computer and all backup copies, and you install say Linux instead. After a year you have enough of Linux and want to go back to MacOS X. You buy a retail copy of OS X and install it. Perfectly legal, because your MacBook is an "Apple-labeled computer".
Precisely. The machine contains with it an irrevocable license from the manufacturer making it eligible to run OS X.

An eligible computer and an eligible person both must exist to constitute a usable product. You can sell your OS X license to a new person, but you cannot sell your machine eligibility without selling the computer.

In a hypothetical situation, if a few years ago Apple had sold a few copies of 10.0 or 10.1 to owners of the legal Macintosh clones from the late 90s, then the owners of these licenses would not be able to legally upgrade their non-Apple computers to 10.5.
That would depend entirely on the terms of the SLA terms of the copies sold to those individuals.
Or if Apple started selling MacPros with Linux or Windows pre-installed instead of MacOS X, you could legally install the $129 retail version of MacOS X on these machines.
Again, not necessarily. You make presumptions without enough facts. The statement is conclusory. If that were to happen, there is no telling what the license terms would be, nor can you make any inferences without price. The Mac would never come without OS X under the current license terms. You might be able to add Windows or Linux directly for a fee, but if the option were to discount the machine for a lack of OS X, there is little chance that you would be eligible for the $129 copy.
A contract requires you to sign a form, stating you have read the full contract.
False on both counts. Contracts require no signature, merely valid assent, and no contract, unless explicitly added as a term, ever requires you to read it--only that you have the option to do so.
 

megfilmworks

macrumors 68020
Jul 1, 2007
2,046
16
Sherman Oaks
Does Apple prevent Psystar from competing? Not at all. Psystar is free to produce hardware that is cheaper or better than Apple's hardware, make it work well with an OS like Windows Vista or Linux, add some additional software to it, design attractive cases, do some clever advertising, give three years warranty, anything they want to do to beat Apple (and Dell or HP) in the market. What they cannot do is to commit copyright infringement to take advantage of Apple's unique value.
Absolutley right!
This lawsuit is a positioning for an Apple payoff to go away, plain and simple.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.