Question: How powerful of a graphics card will work in a beige Power Macintosh G3?

[flyproductions]

I think it should.

So i have to wait a bit, til i get my hands on some appropriate AGP G5 again. The guy with the Dual 2.7 i was after still wanted 80 Euros for a machine which showed clear signs of LCS leakage in pictures. So this just wasn't it this time.

Maybe meanwhile i will at least try to adjust the straps of the Bliss fCode according to what you did to the 6200 and reflash it.

 

[joevt]

Did such a thing ever exist?

I know there was one company that tried to create a PCI-E to AGP bridge but they gave up and I've never seen one.

It would be nice, maybe we could use a PCI-E to PCI then use PCI to AGP?

It was mentioned a few times in the thread that @LightBulbFun linked. #228 -> Posted on 2021-01-29, 19:48 Posted on 2021-03-18, 22:21
I believe they showed pictures of PCIe->PCI->AGP setups at Posted on 2020-09-27, 11:14 and Posted on 2021-09-14, 12:07

 

[sasho648]

There was an PCI-X to PCI-E by StarTech though (I was looking for my G5 AGP).

 

[joevt]

There was an PCI-X to PCI-E by StarTech though (I was looking for my G5 AGP).

Seems like the Startech PCIX1PEX4 doesn't have a 66 MHz option if you wanted to use it in an older system that had 66 MHz PCI slots
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1437150/Startech-Com-Pcix1pex4.html?page=2#manual
Maybe a modification can make it work since both PI7C9X130 or PLX PEX8114 both seem to indicate support for 66 MHz.

Anyway, the PCIX1PEX4 with 2.5 GT/s x4 and 64-bit 133 MHz, should be able to do almost 1000 MB/s = 8 Gbps.
The still available PCI1PEX1 with 2.5 GT/s x1 and 32-bit 33 MHz is limited to < 133 MB/s = 1.067 Gbps.

PCI speeds added to #1

Seems like an AGP to/from PCI adapter would be limited to 1X unless there's an AGP specific bridge chip that can be used to obtain 2X, 4X, or 8X per clock.

 

[joevt]

Finished updating #1 with the info from pages 15 to 29. Feel free to add benchmarks or testing notes or whatever.

 

[flyproductions]

Finished updating #1 with the info from pages 15 to 29. Feel free to add benchmarks or testing notes or whatever.

Just wow! 👏

Right after eliminating two of the All-Time-No-Gos of old Mac GPU-Upgrade knowledge...

- 5200 / 6200 Shader 3 / CoreImage cards do not work in Old World Macs
- 512MB cards do not show up with their complete VRAM but only as 256MB in any pre-PCIe Powermac

...you just finished the most complete Powermac GPU-Upgrade guide i have seen online so far!

Thread should be pinned and eventually renamed. What an impressive piece of work!

 

[DearthnVader]

In some testing with 512MB of VRAM I have found some use cases where it is useful.

In 3D if you are running an extreme screen resolution such as 2560x1600 and you start cranking up FSAA then you will exceed 256MB of VRAM in use.

The recommend system that may have enough CPU speed and bus speed to really make use of this at any decent frame rate would be the Dual G5 2.5 Ghz AGP, the Dual 2.7Ghz AGP and the Dual Core 2.3Ghz and Quad 2.5Ghz.

With AGP cards we are very limited, the G70 core Geforce 7800 GS came in a very limited supply in 512MB VRAM configurations and that is the only AGP card with 512MB VRAM that we have made work with PPC Macs other the the GeForce 6200 AGP 512MB that has a very limited 64bit VRAM data path to the GPU.

The 6200 AGP 512MB would likely be too slow to show much of any real world benefit in Games based on the ID Tech 4 engine such as Doom 3, Quake 4, or Prey.

It maybe fast enough for games based on Quake 3's engine, but lacks Dual Link DVI.

With PCI-E we have the GeForce 7800 GTX 512MB and Quadro FX 4500 512MB, and these cards would show benefit in 3D gaming at extreme screen resolutions while cranking up FSAA.

As far as 2D there as some extreme edge cases where 512MB of VRAM would be of use, if you have 50+ windows open and you are using an app such as Maya and or you are doing this on multiple displays being driven by the same 512MB video card it would keep textures from swapping from system RAM.

System's that can take best advantage of 512MB VRAM in a 2D context would be like the Beige G3 or other Old World Mac that may have limited system Memory.

Sadly my Beige doesn't want to play nice with the PCI bus and the 512MB card so I'd say avoid that setup for now.

 

[flyproductions]

GeForce 6200 AGP 512MB that has a very limited 64bit VRAM data path to the GPU.

What i never really understood, is that this crappy 6200 comes in a wide range of 512MB cards, while the 6600GT doesn't and most are even 128MB and even the 7800 only had one particular model offering this amount of VRAM.

The 6200 AGP 512MB would likely be too slow to show much of any real world benefit in Games based on the ID Tech 4 engine such as Doom 3, Quake 4, or Prey.

Yes! What should be the use of 512MB of VRAM, if a card just hasn't the memory bandwidth to fill them? Just marketing!

 

[DearthnVader]

Yes! What should be the use of 512MB of VRAM, if a card just hasn't the memory bandwidth to fill them? Just marketing!

Mostly marketing, but it didn't cost them anymore, it likely saved them a little, so they did it.

What i never really understood, is that this crappy 6200 comes in a wide range of 512MB cards, while the 6600GT doesn't and most are even 128MB and even the 7800 only had one particular model offering this amount of VRAM.

There were at least 3 G70 based AGP cards that came with 512MB, you Gainwood Dual DVI and two NVIDIA offered on with 20 TMU's and one with 24 TMU's, good luck finding any of them!

It was just a matter of VRAM in production at the time the cards were on production and what it costed them.

 

[flyproductions]

...and two NVIDIA offered on with 20 TMU's and one with 24 TMU's, good luck finding any of them!

I didn't even know, such cards existed! And even the Gainward has a completely different pcb-layout, compared to the other brands. 7800GS reference design has the chip at the rear end of the board, while on the Bliss it sits right in the middle directly over the bridge chip and the socket.

Do you have any pics of these mysterious NV-cards?

 

[DearthnVader]

I didn't even know, such cards existed! And even the Gainward has a completely different pcb-layout, compared to the other brands. 7800GS reference design has the chip at the rear end of the board, while on the Bliss it sits right in the middle directly over the bridge chip and the socket.

Do you have any pics of these mysterious NV-cards?

Just a stock photo that may or may not be the actual card:

 

[flyproductions]

Just a stock photo that may or may not be the actual card:

View attachment 2110191

Hmm, this looks to me like 7800GS reference. Sure possible that it has 512MB. Just depends on what has been soldered. But i was more expecting a completely different card...like the Bliss.

 

[joevt]

You guys have download links for OpenGL Extensions Viewer and OpenMark versions that match the versions you have used (using diff or other compare method)?

 

[flyproductions]

You guys have download links for OpenGL Extensions Viewer and OpenMark versions that match the versions you have used

Sadly realtech VR doesn't offer the download of older versions of the soft and a google search for one of the versions only came up with some more or less sketchy download sites which didn't even have the exact versions needed.

But the software has always been completely free to use and the single versions are somehow small (< 5MB). So, if it is okay, i can upload an archiv with the two (3.0, 3.11) to the forum. Maybe attached to the Wiki-post?

 

[joevt]

Sadly realtech VR doesn't offer the download of older versions of the soft and a google search for one of the versions only came up with some more or less sketchy download sites which didn't even have the exact versins needed.

But the software has always been completely free to use and the single versions are somehow small (< 5MB). So, if it is okay, i can upload an archiv with the two (3.0, 3.11) to the forum. Maybe attached to the Wiki-post?

Attach them to a post and add a link to the wiki post? I don't what to attach files to the wiki post.

 

[domii]

@domii we now have a working ROM for this EVGA 512MB PCI card and a way to flash it, tho it requires nvram patches to work in most PowerMac's and clones, and depending on the version of Open Firmware you have it may need a few more patches to the FCode ROM.

The good news is it works in both Macs and PCs with it's dual ROM.

We just tricked NVFLASH by putting the PC VBIOS image as the first image in the ROM file, and the FCode image as the second image in the ROM file.

Hi, just got around to finding my EVGA card. Uh, not 100% clear on what needed to be done as I missed out on part of that discussion.

Am I loading the mac512.rom from disk via the open firmware on my mac or did joev splice those roms so I can flash the card on a PC? And what version did you use?

When I try to use nvflash on my PC using the rom from post #656, Test7/1ROMs/Mac512.rom I still get the "Unsupported code type: 0x01. Fcode support depreciated" error.

 

[domii]

Sadly realtech VR doesn't offer the download of older versions of the soft and a google search for one of the versions only came up with some more or less sketchy download sites which didn't even have the exact versions needed.

But the software has always been completely free to use and the single versions are somehow small (< 5MB). So, if it is okay, i can upload an archiv with the two (3.0, 3.11) to the forum. Maybe attached to the Wiki-post?

I only found those sketchy sites also, and oldest was version I could find was 3.37.
Posting an archive would be great.

 

[flyproductions]

Attach them to a post and add a link to the wiki post? I don't what to attach files to the wiki post.

Ok, here we go!

Attached an archive, containing OpenGL Extensions Viewer PPC, versions 3.0 as well as 3.11.

 

[flyproductions]

But I have to use this for the EVGA card as NVFLASH won't flash the FCODE ROM by itself. We put the PC VBIOS first in the ROM image to "fool" NVFLASH into flashing the card.

So it is just the unedited PC-ROM and the patched fCode-ROM one after the other in a single file and flash this to the card, given it has at least a 128k EEPROM?

 

[joevt]

So it is just the unedited PC-ROM and the patched fCode-ROM one after the other in a single file and flash this to the card, given it has at least a 128k EEPROM?

Yes, but there's an Indicator byte in the PCI Data Structure of the PC-ROM image that needs to be changed to 0x00 to indicate that there is another rom image after that. The size of an image (in 512 byte increments) is indicated by the the Image Length field in the PCI Data Structure. The next image should appear after that size (counting from the start of the PCI expansion PROM header of the current image).

Is anyone waiting for the Modified 7800GT ROM for Old World Macs? So far I've got it loading to completion in dingusppc running OF 2.4. Next step I need to remember how to use XPostFacto on my 8600. And how to format a hard drive (I have a SATA SSD with IDE to SATA adapter that I'll use with a Sonnet Tempo Trio). When I get the setup done I'll show some pictures.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Is anyone waiting for the Modified 7800GT ROM for Old World Macs? So far I've got it loading to completion in dingusppc running OF 2.4. Next step I need to remember how to use XPostFacto on my 8600. And how to format a hard drive (I have a SATA SSD with IDE to SATA adapter that I'll use with a Sonnet Tempo Trio). When I get the setup done I'll show some pictures.

would be fun to have! although at some point I still need to do some more testing with my PCI to PCIe bridge and my Beige macs, (I also dont have a 7800 GT to test with, just a GeForce 6600 and Single Sided Quadro FX 4500)

from what I briefly tested with the G3 beige, the bridge card worked and showed up fine, and a generic PCIe SATA card showed up in the device tree just fine

but any sort of PCIe Graphics card I put in there, stalled the machine, although I do want to give it more tests incase it was simply taking a long time to int the display as it configured things

alright preliminary quick testing! I did get the G3 Beige out, sadly no X1900

no matter what PCIe GPU I stick into the system it causes it to hang just as the onboard display int's

(as in the Monitor goes "Ooh I Have a signal" and then "Oh nope never mind"!)

this is with 512MB of RAM onboard an Xpostfacto 4's NVRAMRC patches applied

the interesting thing is the system hangs no matter which GPU I try, be it the X1900, the G5 Quad's GeForce 6600, or even the GT 120 from my Mac Pro LOL

all of them will halt the system (and plugging in directly to the X1900 produces no result at all, I did check incase it was trying to output via it!)


however the PCI to PCIe card is seen by OF and a small generic PC PCIe 1x 2 port SATA card is also seen pci 1095,3132, but not in Mac OS 9.2.2, and as above any GPU will cause it to fall over and die which is curious!
View attachment 2085354

 

[joevt]

would be fun to have! although at some point I still need to do some more testing with my PCI to PCIe bridge and my Beige macs, (I also dont have a 7800 GT to test with, just a GeForce 6600 and Single Sided Quadro FX 4500)

from what I briefly tested with the G3 beige, the bridge card worked and showed up fine, and a generic PCIe SATA card showed up in the device tree just fine

but any sort of PCIe Graphics card I put in there, stalled the machine, although I do want to give it more tests incase it was simply taking a long time to int the display as it configured things

I don't have a 6600 ROM yet. Is there a Mac ROM for it?

Quadro FX 4500 works using a 7800GT ROM but that was only verified with FCode version 2149. My 7800GT is FCode version 2152.2. It should also work for the Quadro FX 4500 but you need to change device id in PCI header from 92 to 9D and of course nvstraps and NVDA,BMP always needs to match the values for your card.

7800 #21 is for the 7800GT Mac Edition for my Quad G5 - modified to (hopefully) work with any Apple Open Firmware version.

 

[flyproductions]

I don't have a 6600 ROM yet. Is there a Mac ROM for it?

Yes, there are a few.

Aside from the Apple OEM one for the 6600LE PCIe, which was used as basic configuration in the late 2005 G5s, i have two for AGP GT cards. One, 128k of size, from the Strangedogs Forum and a "reduced" one, i patched myself.

 

[DearthnVader]

So it is just the unedited PC-ROM and the patched fCode-ROM one after the other in a single file and flash this to the card, given it has at least a 128k EEPROM?

You also need to edit the sub-vendor and subsystem-id of the PC Vbios to match the FCODE ROM.

 

[LightBulbFun]

I don't have a 6600 ROM yet. Is there a Mac ROM for it?

the Mac Elite has a collection of Apple OEM ROMs available for download including the GeForce 6600

Wikidownloads2 - The Mac Elite

themacelite.wikidot.com

Yes, there are a few.

Aside from the Apple OEM one for the 6600LE PCIe, which was used as basic configuration in the late 2005 G5s, i have two for AGP GT cards. One, 128k of size, from the Strangedogs Forum and a "reduced" one, i patched myself.

dont forget that there was also the NVIDIA GeForce 6600 without any suffix a 256MB card, which is what I have and then as you say there was a 128MB 6600 LE that mainly shipped in lower spec PCIe G5's