Radeon 7970 in Mac Pro

[derbothaus]

This isn't possible.. Because 'tahiti' refers only to the 7900 series desktop cards. The 7800 series and the mobility series will have a different name.

Anything is possible. But you are right. The 78xx's are based on Pitcairn. Same idea as 6870. Low heat , decent performance.

"Reports confirm that AMD would be launching its Performance Segment Pitcairn based Radeon HD7870 and HD7850 graphic cards in February 2012, A month late after the launch of the High End Tahiti XT/Pro Series Cards which arrive in January 2012.

The Pitcairn XT/Pro based Graphics Cards would replace the Barts XT/Pro based HD6850/HD6870 while offering performance similar to the HD6970/HD6950. HD7870 and HD7850 would feature the 28nm VLIW4 Architecture instead of the GNC (Graphics Next Core) which would only be available on the higher end Tahiti Series."

Source: http://wccftech.com/amd-launching-r...n-xtpro-february-2012-pricing-specs-detailed/

Why would they wait a year when the 7970 is out now, and the mac pro is well overdue for a refresh?

Because it's Apple. When did we get our first ATI 9800? Months later. 8800GT, months to 1 year later. GTX280? Never, had to have eVGA do it. 5870? 6-12 months after release. There is a pattern.

 

[goMac]

Because it's Apple. When did we get our first ATI 9800? Months later. 8800GT, months to 1 year later. GTX280? Never, had to have eVGA do it. 5870? 6-12 months after release. There is a pattern.

Apple always launches with the most current card. The issue is they never refresh.

 

[Pressure]

Because it's Apple. When did we get our first ATI 9800? Months later. 8800GT, months to 1 year later. GTX280? Never, had to have eVGA do it. 5870? 6-12 months after release. There is a pattern.

There is nothing holding AMD or NVIDIA back from concurrently releasing cards and drivers for both Windows, Mac OS X and Linux.

They just choose not to use the resources necessary.

 

[MacVidCards]

Get your rain gear on.....

I'm here to rain on the parade.

http://www.techspot.com/review/481-amd-radeon-7970/page2.html

Note the 8 pin power plug.

So, once again we will be limited to the 2nd rung of the ladder.

We're Number 2 !!!

WHEN (not "IF" ...think positive) the 2012 Mac Pro comes out, let's hope they include dual 6/8 pin power plugs. Won't help us 2006-2011 types much but GTX285 / 5870 were the last "Top End" cards we could run.

Since then, due to Mac Pro being "underpowered" (ouch !!!) we have been left out of the party.

 

[goMac]

There is nothing holding AMD or NVIDIA back from concurrently releasing cards and drivers for both Windows, Mac OS X and Linux.

They just choose not to use the resources necessary.

AMD used to release cards and drivers pretty regularly. The problem is the Mac cards just don't sell enough.

These days, AMD can concurrently release cards and drivers, but Apple controls the flow of both. And Apple won't update the available cards they sell until they update the Mac Pro. Leaving companies to decide if they want to produce and sell cards on their own.

I'm pretty sure AMD's best way around this issue has just been making the Mac drivers compatible with the PC hardware. That way they don't have the overhead of having to make Mac cards, and can bypass Apple as the gatekeeper for the hardware.

To add to this, if you're NVidia, you're just totally out of luck right now. The only way they have to get NVidia cards out is to bite the bullet and market them on their own.

 

[Cindori]

Because it's Apple. When did we get our first ATI 9800? Months later. 8800GT, months to 1 year later. GTX280? Never, had to have eVGA do it. 5870? 6-12 months after release. There is a pattern.

-->

Apple always launches with the most current card. The issue is they never refresh.

this.

I'm here to rain on the parade.

http://www.techspot.com/review/481-amd-radeon-7970/page2.html

Note the 8 pin power plug.

So, once again we will be limited to the 2nd rung of the ladder.

We're Number 2 !!!

WHEN (not "IF" ...think positive) the 2012 Mac Pro comes out, let's hope they include dual 6/8 pin power plugs. Won't help us 2006-2011 types much but GTX285 / 5870 were the last "Top End" cards we could run.

Since then, due to Mac Pro being "underpowered" (ouch !!!) we have been left out of the party.

I dont't get it. Is the 8-ppin plug really an issue? several PC 4890 / 5870 that people have flashed have had a 8-pin power plug. They have got by by just using a 6-pin anyway, or an adapter like

 

[derbothaus]

5870 had been out for months by the time Apple used it in Mac Pro. We could just be arguing semantics. If it was the most powerful card ATI had at the time AND did not require 2x8 pin power connects Apple uses it, correct?
So really its that they use the "Current" NOT "New" and may be considered old if a new card comes out 2 weeks after Apple released the 2010 Pro's. I get what you're saying. But it does appear to be in the performance languishing column. Especially because they offer zero after market choices until the new Pro's are constructed. Then we can pay top dollar. I want a 7970, would be great. We'll most likely get the fastest 2x6-pin AMD offers.

 

[goMac]

5870 had been out for months by the time Apple used it in Mac Pro. We could just be arguing semantics. If it was the most powerful card ATI had at the time AND did not require 2x8 pin power connects Apple uses it, correct?
So really its that they use the "Current" NOT "New" and may be considered old if a new card comes out 2 weeks after Apple released the 2010 Pro's. I get what you're saying. But it does appear to be in the performance languishing column. Especially because they offer zero after market choices until the new Pro's are constructed. Then we can pay top dollar. I want a 7970, would be great. We'll most likely get the fastest 2x6-pin AMD offers.

So the 5870 was the newest card at the time, and that's what Apple used. QED.

The 7970 is the newest single GPU card out right now, Apple will use that.

The 2x6 pin doesn't matter. The power supply has no problem with an 8 pin.

 

[VirtualRain]

I dont't get it. Is the 8-ppin plug really an issue? several PC 4890 / 5870 that people have flashed have had a 8-pin power plug. They have got by by just using a 6-pin anyway, or an adapter like

I never understood the point of the 8-PIN connector... it adds two extra ground pins. Anyone with basic electronics knowledge knows that whatever current flows out must flow in, so it makes no sense to have a total of 6 power pins 8 ground pins. Unless the PEG slot itself somehow has more power than ground pins

Ergo, I completely agree that there should be absolutely no electrical issue with using an adapter like you've suggested above.

Having said that, it would be nice if the 2012 Mac Pro provided 6/8pin headers on the main board with appropriate cables so we didn't need to bother with adapters.

 

[derbothaus]

The 6970 is the newest single GPU card out right now, Apple will use that.

Aren't we having this discussion because the newest single GPU out right now is the 7970? It hit shelves as of January 10. Even if it's availability will be somewhat scarce initially we have plenty of time for production to ramp up for 2012 Mac Pro's.
Or am I missing even more of this picture? 6970 is balls for a 5870 owner. Barely worth opening the case for.

----------

Having said that, it would be nice if the 2012 Mac Pro provided 6/8pin headers on the main board with appropriate cables so we didn't need to bother with adapters.

Even better if the PSU's were modular. But now I know someone will chime in with the "Get a PC" tag.

 

[goMac]

Aren't we having this discussion because the newest single GPU out right now is the 7970? It hit shelves as of January 10. Even if it's availability will be somewhat scarce initially we have plenty of time for production to ramp up for 2012 Mac Pro's.

I meant 7970, sorry, too many numbers. Apple will use the 7970.
(Editing the earlier comment.)

 

[deconstruct60]

Apple always launches with the most current card. The issue is they never refresh.

No. Apple launches with the most current card that fits their desired target price and thermal profile. Apple rarely picks the "fastest" , "bleeding edge" card as part of the optional set (let alone the default. )

The 5970 launched before the Mac Pro ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_(GPU_family)#Radeon_HD_5900) and it was not used. While lower than the 5970 ( 294W ) , the 7970 at 250W is likely not going to make the cut. It is more likely that Apple is going to pick something under 200W as being the "higher performance" option card.

There is a chance the "Tahati Pro " 7950 Model will slide in under 200W, but that is up in the air at the moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_series

 

[goMac]

No. Apple launches with the most current card that fits their desired target price and thermal profile. Apple rarely picks the "fastest" , "bleeding edge" card as part of the optional set (let alone the default. )

The 5970 launched before the Mac Pro ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_(GPU_family)#Radeon_HD_5900) and it was not used. While lower than the 5970 ( 294W ) , the 7970 at 250W is likely not going to make the cut. It is more likely that Apple is going to pick something under 200W as being the "higher performance" option card.

There is a chance the "Tahati Pro " 7950 Model will slide in under 200W, but that is up in the air at the moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...g_units#Southern_Islands_.28HD_7xxx.29_series

The 5970 was a dual GPU card. As I mentioned before, Apple always picks the fastest single GPU card.

That's the 7970.

The Mac drivers have never supported dual GPU cards/Crossfire. That's why Apple doesn't use them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with thermal profiles.

(Regardless, even if it did, the 7970 has a better thermal profile than the 5870. The 5870 used up to 350 watts at load while the 7970 claims 280.)

 

[dh2005]

Good discussion, this. Very enlightening for someone who doesn't know anything about the subject matter.


Personally, I'm on a knife-edge. I'm in the middle of my university Finals and - provided I pass them - I'm gonna have a weapons-grade blowout in February/March (before my educational discounts expire...!) on a desktop computer that will do everything I need it to do for the next three or four years. The only question is whether that computer will be a 2012 Mac Pro or a Windows PC.

I'd need a high-end graphics card, and the release of the 7970 (we believe...) to coincide with the imminent release of a new Mac Pro would be enough to keep me with Apple. Not getting regular refreshes, I can live with: it would be my intention to invest 'big' upfront, rather than swapping-out my GPU every year. But if the card of choice turned-out to be something kinda tepid that wasn't really much quicker than what existed beforehand, I'm gonna have to jump ship.

Fingers crossed...

 

[Pressure]

I doubt the Radeon HD 7970 will be the standard configuration.

It may be a Built-to-Order option, especially looking at the $550 price tag. For comparison the Radeon HD 5870 was "only" $399. My honest expectation would be something like the Radeon 6870 as the standard card or the Radeon HD 7000 series equivalent.

 

[Inconsequential]

I doubt the Radeon HD 7970 will be the standard configuration.

It may be a Built-to-Order option, especially looking at the $550 price tag. For comparison the Radeon HD 5870 was "only" $399. My honest expectation would be something like the Radeon 6870 as the standard card or the Radeon HD 7000 series equivalent.

Agreed.



It will the the 7870 for BTO and 7770 for standard configs.

Apparently they are supposed to be 6970/6950 performance respectively.

 

[dh2005]

I doubt the Radeon HD 7970 will be the standard configuration.

It may be a Built-to-Order option, especially looking at the $550 price tag. For comparison the Radeon HD 5870 was "only" $399. My honest expectation would be something like the Radeon 6870 as the standard card or the Radeon HD 7000 series equivalent.

Mm, yeah. I'd considered this myself.

I'd be willing to make the extra investment, though.

 

[deconstruct60]

The 5970 was a dual GPU card. As I mentioned before, Apple always picks the fastest single GPU card.

Mac Pro 2008 http://support.apple.com/kb/SP11

(selected vs. not selected )

NVIDIA 8800 GT vs 8800 GTS and NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600 vs. FX 5800


Mac Pro 2006 http://support.apple.com/kb/SP30

ATI X1990 XT vs. X1990XTX


Price is also factor which may have taken lead with some of these.

(Regardless, even if it did, the 7970 has a better thermal profile than the 5870. The 5870 used up to 350 watts at load while the 7970 claims 280.)

Got any references? Your "max" 350 sounds alot like the x2 5870 set-ups at 350-380 range quoted around the web. For example:

http://www.geeks3d.com/20090618/graphics-cards-thermal-design-power-tdp-database/

AMD's Specifications (http://www.amd.com/US/PRODUCTS/DESK...5870/Pages/ati-radeon-hd-5870-overview.aspx#2) put it at 188W ( System requirements two 75W 6 pin connectors )

Whereas the 7970 specs are lagging on TDW but posted elsewhere as 250W ( System requirements http://www.amd.com/us/products/desktop/graphics/7000/7970/Pages/radeon-7970.aspx#2 one 150 W 8 pin connector and one 75W 6 pin connector. ). So it is awfully curious why a card with almost 4/5's the power usage, requires power connectors with higher wattage.

Mac Pro's power allocation for PCI-e is 300W. Throwing 83% of that at just one card isn't going to make for a balanced system. Neither is that card going to make the "cut" for most of these TB PCI-e expansion enclosures due to being a double wide, restricted to PCI-e v2.0, and/or on power.

 

[derbothaus]

Agreed.



It will the the 7870 for BTO and 7770 for standard configs.

.

7770 sucks. They are equal to a 6850 and score about the same as the 6970m in the iMac. They are crud. I hope to never have that as standard. At least something as powerful as 6870 as standard. This is supposed to be an "upgrade". At least 7870-7970 for CTO option.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/AMD-Radeon-HD-7770-GPU-graphics,14399.html

 

[goMac]

I doubt the Radeon HD 7970 will be the standard configuration.

It may be a Built-to-Order option, especially looking at the $550 price tag. For comparison the Radeon HD 5870 was "only" $399. My honest expectation would be something like the Radeon 6870 as the standard card or the Radeon HD 7000 series equivalent.

Yeah. Never said it would be stock. But as the successor to the 5870, I'd expect it to fill the same roll.

If the 7XXX line isn't filled out by then, the 6870 would make sense as the 5770 replacement, unless we had a surprise appearance by NVidia (not likely.)

Agreed.

It will the the 7870 for BTO and 7770 for standard configs.

Apparently they are supposed to be 6970/6950 performance respectively.

The 7870 is the replacement for the 5770, not the 5870. AMD bumped all the card numbers up by 100, and put the 5970 into the 6990/7990 slot.

Mac Pro 2008 http://support.apple.com/kb/SP11 NVIDIA 8800 GT vs 8800 GTS and NVIDIA Quadro FX 5600 vs. FX 5800

The GTS was a minor variation on the GT, not a major change like the 5870 vs. the 5770.

As counter examples, we have the 5870, 4870, GeForce 4 Ti, GeForce 3 Ti....

All those were considered the top end cards, but had minor changes Apple also didn't adopt. But Apple never jumped down a model.

The 7970 also has minor variations such as more VRAM. I expect Apple would use whatever the baseline is for VRAM.

Mac Pro 2006 http://support.apple.com/kb/SP30

ATI X1990 XT vs. X1990XTX

You keep citing minor variations based on the model numbers. If you want to quibble over that, yeah, if there was a 7970 and a 7970 Pro, Apple might pick one or the other.

Price is also factor which may have taken lead with some of these.

Why? Price is absorbed by the user. Are you really saying Apple takes a price hit on something like the 5870?

It's more that they're extremely minor revisions on the cards that ship later than the original version.

Mac Pro's power allocation for PCI-e is 300W. Throwing 83% of that at just one card isn't going to make for a balanced system. Neither is that card going to make the "cut" for most of these TB PCI-e expansion enclosures due to being a double wide, restricted to PCI-e v2.0, and/or on power.

Trying to figure out what power system the 300 watts is for.

If it's for the power leads, both power leads would be taken up by the card, so it wouldn't really matter anyway (much like the 5870 today.)

If you're talking about the PCI-E bus power, the PCI-E specification gives the maximum wattage that has to be supplied, so the system would need to provide that for all the PCI-E 2.0 slots evenly.

Either way, it doesn't affect any sort of "balance."

I saw your post on power. Places like Tom's Hardware are citing much higher numbers, so I'm trying to figure out where the discrepancy is.

 

[Inconsequential]

The 7870 is the replacement for the 5770, not the 5870. AMD bumped all the card numbers up by 100, and put the 5970 into the 6990/7990 slot.

So the 7990 is the dual card 6990 replacement then...

Either way a 7950 as a stock config would be nice.

 

[goMac]

So the 7990 is the dual card 6990 replacement then...

Either way a 7950 as a stock config would be nice.

If the 7950 was out when the Mac Pro shipped, it would be a pretty good candidate for a stock card. The rumored specs of the 7870 also make it a pretty good candidate. Power draw looks about right for a dual GPU configuration.

 

[Cindori]

so many card numbers here... here's how the different generations relate to each others:

4850 -> 5850 -> 6950 -> 7950

4870 -> 5870 -> 6970 -> 7970

4870x2 -> 5970 -> 6990 -> 7990

 

[goMac]

so many card numbers here... here's how the different generations relate to each others:

4850 -> 5850 -> 6950 -> 7950

4870 -> 5870 -> 6970 -> 7970

4870x2 -> 5970 -> 6990 -> 7970

Everything looks good there except for the last one. Wouldn't the 4870x2 turn into a yet to be announced 7990?

 

[BigJohno]

Everything looks good there except for the last one. Wouldn't the 4870x2 turn into a yet to be announced 7990?

I think the 7970 comes very close in performance to the 6990. See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRT9rOOsb78