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mayuka

macrumors 6502a
Feb 15, 2009
610
66
I'm all confused.

Does the new W5700X support the LG Ultrafine 4K display? It has 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports on the backside, so it should be???


If yes, I probably need a separate Thunderbolt 3 data cable?
 

flowrider

macrumors 604
Nov 23, 2012
7,323
3,003
^^^^I'm running that monitor with my 7,1 NcMP. But, I have an Aorus RX5700XT. I'm using a bidirectional DP to USBC cable. The only issue I have is no boot screen. With the Apple Pro W5700X and the proper TB cable you will have no issue at all with that 24" UltraFine. BTW, it's a 4K GREAT monitor. I'm running mine at 4096 x 2304 resolution. The TB cable ships with the display.

BTW, that display has two TB inputs and two USBC outputs.

Lou
 
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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
6,968
4,262
^^^^I'm running that monitor with my 7,1 NcMP. But, I have an Aorus RX5700XT. I'm using a bidirectional DP to USBC cable. The only issue I have is no boot screen. With the Apple Pro W5700X and the proper TB cable you will have no issue at all with that 24" UltraFine. BTW, it's a 4K GREAT monitor. I'm running mine at 4096 x 2304 resolution. The TB cable ships with the display.

BTW, that display has two TB inputs and two USBC outputs.
Isn't the normal resolution of the 24" UltraFine 4K 3840x2160? It support USB-C connection and Thunderbolt connection. I guess a 4096x2304 mode isn't out of the question, it will just be scaled down to 3840x2160 (same for 2048x1152 HiDPI mode).

The older 21.5" UltraFine 4K display is USB-C only, has a 4096 x 2304 resolution (and I think it requires a USB signal so the bidirectional DP to USB-C cable is not sufficient - you need USB-C to USB-C cable or an adapter that combines USB and DisplayPort to USB-C).
 

flowrider

macrumors 604
Nov 23, 2012
7,323
3,003
^^^^Yes, that standard resolution is 3840 x 2160. 4096 x 2304 is an option (really 2048 x 1152 is offered) in Display Preferences. I prefer the extra real estate. It is still 4K with 198PPI.

Lou
 

mayuka

macrumors 6502a
Feb 15, 2009
610
66
That's great. Thanks.

One tiny question remains. The LG 4k does not have a power button. I guess that it can be turned off / into standby in System Preferences?

I'm asking because I would like to use one of these HDMI dongles as a second display and force it to the native resolution of my MacBook Pro to work remotely on the Mac Pro. Has anybody tried whether the W5700X does handle these little dongles? I use one on the old Mac Mini 2012 and it works with a tool called QuickRes.
 

HWPro

macrumors newbie
Feb 4, 2020
3
1
ordered my W5700X over the weekend...heres to hoping it comes quicker than the 2-3 week lead time. I still have my Radeon VII (7) installed and will probably keep it with the W5700X when I get it. FWIW, in the higher-ed sector the VegaII and Duo's were not available to purchase separately from the Apple B2B stores until recently...I think the same day the W5700X came available so did the other GPU's for separate purchase. Our rep said last month the supply was constrained which makes sense (keeping them for "regular" purchase and CTO as well as service replacement supply). The W5700X carries a $100 discount via an EDU purchase so it's $900 standalone via that channel. Also, AMD has a splash page for the W5700X now on it's website...linked on the home page.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
.... Also, AMD has a splash page for the W5700X now on it's website...linked on the home page.

Hmm,

"...
Up to 32GB
GDDR6 Memory
... "

copy and paste from the page(s) for: https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/radeon-apple and
https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/workstations-radeon-pro-vega-ii

Or a info leakage screw up? ( I suspect it is copy/paste thing. Or hand waving about a two card set up. )

Power wise the W5700X runs hotter ( 250W) than the standard specs for at 5700XT card. (there are substantive other electionrics on the card for one. If the card then those would be contributors too) But is indicative that this isn't the "entry level" kind of card.
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
Or a info leakage screw up? ( I suspect it is copy/paste thing. Or hand waving about a two card set up. )

Power wise the W5700X runs hotter ( 250W) than the standard specs for at 5700XT card. (there are substantive other electionrics on the card for one. If the card then those would be contributors too) But is indicative that this isn't the "entry level" kind of card.

It’s almost certainly error. Its not impossible that we might see a 32GB W5700XT from AMD (not Apple), but I’d imagine their 5900-class cards will actually get that much VRAM if anything does.

As for power, you do have more VRAM, so that accounts for some of the extra TGP rating.

I do wonder what that power is going to though. The W5700X is slightly downclocked from the 5700XT, so it should be more efficient, not less.
 

HWPro

macrumors newbie
Feb 4, 2020
3
1
Hmm,

"...
Up to 32GB
GDDR6 Memory
... "

copy and paste from the page(s) for: https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/radeon-apple and
https://www.amd.com/en/graphics/workstations-radeon-pro-vega-ii

Or a info leakage screw up? ( I suspect it is copy/paste thing. Or hand waving about a two card set up. )

Power wise the W5700X runs hotter ( 250W) than the standard specs for at 5700XT card. (there are substantive other electionrics on the card for one. If the card then those would be contributors too) But is indicative that this isn't the "entry level" kind of card.


I saw that too but didn't know what to make of it....I would assume...and there is no technical doc I can find about the card or Mac Pro from Apple (yet) but possibly if you CTO'd with 2 x W5700X and based on the MPX connector and possible Infinity Fabric Link connector it could "act" as one with 32GB...remember that the Infinity fabric link is an external connector between 2 x Vega II's (non-duo) whereas 1 Duo card uses the infinity fabric connector on-board internally to act as 1 GPU.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
Are these the first "Workstation" cards from AMD (their own first-party cards - not Apple variants) that they call "Pro" which are specifically stated as not having ECC memory?
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
I saw that too but didn't know what to make of it....I would assume...and there is no technical doc I can find about the card or Mac Pro from Apple (yet) but possibly if you CTO'd with 2 x W5700X and based on the MPX connector and possible Infinity Fabric Link connector it could "act" as one with 32GB.

Infinity Fabric isn't a possible solution because the current Navi chips don't have it. ( I have some doubts the next round of Navi chips are going to it either. As primarily aimed at gaming and high frame rates. More likely would get one bigger die and pack more memory locally around it. p That bigger die with more memory (32) might be possible if this isn't a copy/paste typo. )

MPX connector is entirely superfluous. The base PCI-e v3 x16 base link between the two GPU modules is way faster ( not only 2x that x8 link, but also because slot 1 and 3 are not PCI-e switched to spread bandwidth to the other slots. ) to provide data sharing capability.


..remember that the Infinity fabric link is an external connector between 2 x Vega II's (non-duo) whereas 1 Duo card uses the infinity fabric connector on-board internally to act as 1 GPU.

The DUO has an external link also. Apple doesn't seem to provide the MPX module cross link with the card, but there is a plate to cover the external links standard with the card.
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Are these the first "Workstation" cards from AMD (their own first-party cards - not Apple variants) that they call "Pro" which are specifically stated as not having ECC memory?

No. The W5700 was release previously.

"...
Memory Size 8 GB
Memory Type (GPU) GDDR6
Memory Interface 256-bit
Memory Bandwidth 448 GB/s
Memory ECC Support No
..."
https://www.amd.com/en/products/professional-graphics/radeon-pro-w5700

AMD's W5500 has same ECC status. Both announced and shipped before Apple's W5700X. ( Dec 2019 , Feb 2020 respectively )
 
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Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
MPX connector is entirely superfluous. The base PCI-e v3 x16 base link between the two GPU modules is way faster ( not only 2x that x8 link, but also because slot 1 and 3 are not PCI-e switched to spread bandwidth to the other slots. ) to provide data sharing capability.

The MPX connector really isn’t for sharing data between cards anyways. All the data lines on the MPX connector are there to feed TB controllers (either the outbound DP lines, or the inbound PCIe).

But I’ll add (for HWPro’s edification) that just because the Infinity Fabric link isn’t there, doesn’t mean apps can’t leverage two W5700X cards. If it can leverage the link, it is already multi-GPU aware. The link is really providing a tool for moving MTLBuffers between GPUs that doesn’t require placing load on the CPU/PCIe bus, lowering latency.

No. The W5700 was release previously.

AMD's W5500 has same ECC status. Both announced and shipped before Apple's W5700X. ( Dec 2019 , Feb 2020 respectively )

Not quite how I read the question, but it still answers it. But yes, it does look like Navi simply doesn’t use ECC across the board. I wonder how much of it is due to being more closely built from the consumer-level Navi architecture while they revisit their workstation architecture.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
Not quite how I read the question, but it still answers it. But yes, it does look like Navi simply doesn’t use ECC across the board. I wonder how much of it is due to being more closely built from the consumer-level Navi architecture while they revisit their workstation architecture.

More "this generation", not specific model, in terms of is offering "pro" GPUs without ECC a new thing for AMD. We remember the debacle of the 2013 Mac Pro GPUs getting the "Fire Pro" branding, despite being non-pro, non-ecc cards, and that seems to have more or less been the end of the line for the "Fire Pro" brand.

Looking at AMD's site, it seems only the 9100 & 8200 have ECC memory.
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
Looking at AMD's site, it seems only the 9100 & 8200 have ECC memory.

Those are Vega cards. But there’s no Navi replacements for the high end, so not surprising.

For the rest of your post, we already are talking about the same thing...

IIRC, AMD doesn’t really have a workstation-tweaked architecture for this generation at all.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
Those are Vega cards. But there’s no Navi replacements for the high end, so not surprising.

For the rest of your post, we already are talking about the same thing...

IIRC, AMD doesn’t really have a workstation-tweaked architecture for this generation at all.

Yeah, it's interesting to me that they're not structurally separating their cards - just munging everythng into the "pro" branding. I wonder what's worse for their reputation - not having any low-end "pro" cards, or diluting their "pro" branding by relabelling gaming cards.
 

Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
Yeah, it's interesting to me that they're not structurally separating their cards - just munging everythng into the "pro" branding. I wonder what's worse for their reputation - not having any low-end "pro" cards, or diluting their "pro" branding by relabelling gaming cards.

Honestly, Navi seems to be a low point for AMD. Ongoing driver issues (on Windows too), painting themselves in a corner on workstation cards, and a lack of “Big Navi” that now seems like it might not even land within a year of the 5700 XT.

They at least managed to clean up the mess made during their CPU launch last year (even though that took a while to fully sort out). It honestly seems like the GPU team needs a reset as they’ve hit a dead end with their designs, similar to Intel with the Pentium 4.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
Honestly, Navi seems to be a low point for AMD.

So was Polaris, so was Vega... every generation of AMD GPU seems to be hyped as the next big thing, with breakthrough technology, then it comes out, and it turns out AMD's process leadership translates into lower performance, and higher power draw, and then the narrative shifts to how the next generation will solve it...

And yeah, it's weird that their CPU team is so different in terms of their competition with Intel...
 

724699

Cancelled
Aug 4, 2012
127
44
Always the same with AMD. Sub-par components, hyped up to be something they’re not. Why does Apple insist on using this rubbish ... just received my brand new Mac Pro with the W5700X and while the machine is absolutely beautiful, I’ve already noticed erratic performance dips with the W5700X.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
So was Polaris, so was Vega... every generation of AMD GPU seems to be hyped as the next big thing, with breakthrough technology,

Overhyped by whom? Some of this is AMD, but a substantive portion is injected presumptions. Vega wasn't a 'top to bottom' replacement for Polaris. Navi isn't a "top to bottom" replacement for Vega either.

"Big Navi" has been pitched at the Vega replacement for much of 2019. All the while Arcturus has been percolating along. And then AMD unveils.
GPU_Fission_575px.jpg



And some folks are still "Big Navi" is the Vega replacement. there has been a running tension that AMD has been trying to cover the two paths that Nvidia is on with just "one implementation" with a vastly smaller R&D budget. Actually it is a bit of three paths if loop in the embedded gaming box obligations.

Somewhat doubtful that "Big Navi" hardware is somehow going to clean up their driver issue. Especially if throw real time ray tracing API support on top.



then it comes out, and it turns out AMD's process leadership translates into lower performance, and higher power draw, and then the narrative shifts to how the next generation will solve it...



And yeah, it's weird that their CPU team is so different in terms of their competition with Intel...

Weird or has a bigger budget? ( and/or less products to cover. Same chiplet for everyone dekstop sever and APUs 'last'. )

This should get incrementally better as AMD gets healthier finances. Well see if they can walk and chew gum at the same time moving RNDA and CDNA forward at the same time.
[automerge]1588126932[/automerge]
Honestly, Navi seems to be a low point for AMD. Ongoing driver issues (on Windows too), painting themselves in a corner on workstation cards, and a lack of “Big Navi” that now seems like it might not even land within a year of the 5700 XT.

"Big Navi" without stable "little-medium" drivers was going to do what if AMD released earlier? Navi is a partially a time sink due to the game console platforms. Pretty good chance that has their software development resources somewhat diluted (or at least were much of 2019 ).

AMD's primary objective with Navi was to fill the cost sensitive GPU add in card market. ( sub ~ $300 market). So RX 5700 probable longer term "street price" and down. The 5700 XT wasn't the primary focus. "Big Navi" even less so.

I highly doubt anyone serious was really thinking "Big Navi" was going to be some kind of Nvidia killer. More likely expected to just keep in the ballpark once Nvidia finally moved up to 7nm. Nor will Nvidia's move be a AMD killer.

They at least managed to clean up the mess made during their CPU launch last year (even though that took a while to fully sort out). It honestly seems like the GPU team needs a reset as they’ve hit a dead end with their designs, similar to Intel with the Pentium 4.

The CPU move from 14nm to 12nm wasn't a major move. "Big Navi" moving to 'better 7nm optimized library tools" is actually pretty similar. The bigger issue is that "Big Navi" seem to more so caught up in AMD vs Nviidia fan boy angst.

There is a trade off in trying to move to newer processes with larger dies. AMD just took several lumps here. Vega 20 architecture as "pipe cleaner" wasn't the best path. Navi had hardware holes that needed to et plugged so Vega 20 took the lead. Arcturus ( probably follow on to Vega 20 ) and Big Navi will be the more finely tuned versions.
 
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Krevnik

macrumors 601
Sep 8, 2003
4,101
1,312
"Big Navi" without stable "little-medium" drivers was going to do what if AMD released earlier? Navi is a partially a time sink due to the game console platforms. Pretty good chance that has their software development resources somewhat diluted (or at least were much of 2019 ).

AMD's primary objective with Navi was to fill the cost sensitive GPU add in card market. ( sub ~ $300 market). So RX 5700 probable longer term "street price" and down. The 5700 XT wasn't the primary focus. "Big Navi" even less so.

I highly doubt anyone serious was really thinking "Big Navi" was going to be some kind of Nvidia killer. More likely expected to just keep in the ballpark once Nvidia finally moved up to 7nm. Nor will Nvidia's move be a AMD killer.

I’m not expecting “Big Navi” to be some kind of Nvidia killer either. It’s more that the timing is not a good sign on the health of AMD’s GPU product pipeline if so much work is required to make it ready, especially with the reputation of buggy drivers piled on top haunting them for nearly a year after launch. It really gives the impression that AMD is having trouble executing reliably, and picking the right battles to fight.

If Navi really was about chasing the low-end of the market, I wonder why the heck they included PCIe 4 and DSC when neither of those are going to be relevant for a market buying budget SSDs, 1080p monitors, and cheap enough CPU/GPU pairs that they aren’t going to benefit from either. That’s a very weird choice, IMO.

And I’d argue that their CPU side isn’t immune to this, but they get their act together faster after face planting on the pavement on launch week, which isn’t saying much because it was still a month or two before the hyper-sensitive boost behavior got brought under control on Ryzen 3000 CPUs.

AMD just took several lumps here.

Exactly why I think this is a low point for them. I’m not saying it can’t or won’t get better, but right now it certainly feels like AMD would have to actively sabotage themselves to do worse in the GPU space.

I like AMD and what they are trying to do, in general. But they come across as a company that has far too much experience tripping over their own feet, and are doing an awful lot of it in the last year or so.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
...
If Navi really was about chasing the low-end of the market, I wonder why the heck they included PCIe 4

One reason is that PCIe 4 lines with their far more affordable CPUs too. Not just trying to sell GPUs, but systems.
Yes super budget folks only want to buy components for the sunk cost base system the own. Well PCIe 4 card is perfectly compatible with PCI-e v3 systems.

Second, since had to do PCIe 4 work for 7nm for CPUs ... it probably didn't add any significant costs to the put in.

Third, it is a marketing checkbox that Nvidia doesn't have. ( sell to low cost buyers are "future proofed" . when do buy that upgraded base system can keep the card and it will go faster. ).


DSC is actually part of the standard (both DisplayPort and HDMI ) . GPU vendors are suppose to implement them in a timely fashion. The implementation algorithm is laid out in the standard and the implementation space on the die isn't that huge. This isn't a high cost item. If get first version 1 done before competitor can move to version 2 ( or 1.1 ) later when competitor has just got to version 1.

when neither of those are going to be relevant for a market buying budget SSDs, 1080p monitors,

budget isn't particular 1080p anymore. 1440p monitors now are were 1080p monitors were 3-4 years ago. 4K is going to be a marketing checkbox in the current context.


Exactly why I think this is a low point for them. I’m not saying it can’t or won’t get better, but right now it certainly feels like AMD would have to actively sabotage themselves to do worse in the GPU space.

A contributing factor here is the hooks from Navi into the PS/5 and Xbox Series X. If Xbox Series X isn't a flop then this is more so slow out of the gate. If both do reasonable well then being stretched thin in late 2019 through now will pay off. If both don't do well then very substantive parts of Navi would have turned out to be a distraction.

The other contributing factor is having to weave the macOS drivers updates into the macOS release process. 10.15 was a crap storm on the initial iterations. It can't imagine that actually helped AMD's development process for the second half of 2019. Apple can be kind of cheap so I highly doubt they compensated AMD for crapping on the release process either. Drivers for the 5300M and 5500M probably had priority ( Mobile Macbook Pro over Mac Pro or eGPUs in priority. )

It would be kind of curious as to where AMD has put their driver developers too. ( if somewhere in a Covid-19 crap storm this Winter that wouldn't help either. There is a decent chunk of graphics development done in Shanghai, among other places. )


I like AMD and what they are trying to do, in general. But they come across as a company that has far too much experience tripping over their own feet, and are doing an awful lot of it in the last year or so.


AMD certainly has bugs to fix. But Apple has gobs of them too. Putting them together on a shared project probably isn't better.

I think AMD is doing better than there were 4-5 years ago, but also covering more areas so more places to have bugs.
Unless bring the depth and breadth of the stack being developed into perspective than can get mired in the simplistic metrics as number of bugs.
 

goMac

macrumors 604
Apr 15, 2004
7,663
1,694
So was Polaris, so was Vega... every generation of AMD GPU seems to be hyped as the next big thing, with breakthrough technology, then it comes out, and it turns out AMD's process leadership translates into lower performance, and higher power draw, and then the narrative shifts to how the next generation will solve it...

And yeah, it's weird that their CPU team is so different in terms of their competition with Intel...

I get the feeling that the high end Navi work, and supply, is being directed towards the PS5 and Xbox Series X right now. PC is not currently a priority for high end Navi when consoles are where the reliable money is.
 

mattspace

macrumors 68040
Jun 5, 2013
3,344
2,975
Australia
I get the feeling that the high end Navi work, and supply, is being directed towards the PS5 and Xbox Series X right now. PC is not currently a priority for high end Navi when consoles are where the reliable money is.

if only there was a company that made high performance graphics for computers, whose eye was fixedly on the ball of making higher performance graphics for computers...
 

jccmaxon

macrumors member
Dec 13, 2013
79
11
And I don’t know if buy a new Gpu (XFX Radeon vii) or To wait new amd Gpu. I have got a new Mac Pro with xeon 12 cores and 580x.
 
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