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It’s like they donate millions to charity and help lots of people. Do I think Apple or Tim are genuinely doing this out of some warm feeling in their hearts? Absolutely not.
Who knows, but a search on Tim Cook donating his entire fortune to charity will confirm the pledge he made years ago, so apparently all the work he's doing for Apple (and its shareholders) has nothing to do with enhancing his personal wealth but perhaps it's merely a sense of duty?
 
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You’re probably right, but also it doesn’t matter what their feelings or motivations are but rather what they’re doing. It’s like they donate millions to charity and help lots of people. Do I think Apple or Tim are genuinely doing this out of some warm feeling in their hearts? Absolutely not. Do I think the people on the receiving end of these generous donations care? Absolutely not. I don’t think people that buy a Mac mini for $600 care how Apple does it but just the fact that they get it.

That was my point - it’s just business.

People whose needs are met by the base mini are obviously getting a great deal. But many Mac users can’t seem to understand why the upgrade prices are so high vs. those in the wider PC market. They’re just coming at it with the wrong assumptions.
 
Who knows, but a search on Tim Cook donating his entire fortune to charity will confirm the pledge he made years ago, so apparently all the work he's doing for Apple (and its shareholders) has nothing to do with enhancing his personal wealth but perhaps it's merely a sense of duty?
It’s possible he makes personal donations based on some sense of duty or responsibility. Corporate donations aren’t the same. He has a responsibility to shareholders when it comes to corporate money. I’m sure he has some leeway, but he can’t cause the company to lose money.



That was my point - it’s just business.

People whose needs are met by the base mini are obviously getting a great deal. But many Mac users can’t seem to understand why the upgrade prices are so high vs. those in the wider PC market. They’re just coming at it with the wrong assumptions.
it’s a product just like any other product and people have a choice to buy or not buy it. Apple will price their products based on the market just like everything in a free market economy. If the prices are too much sales will drop. People may complain but sometimes talk doesn’t mean sales. Apple learned that the hard way with the iPhone mini.
 
A shame, I feel like the current Mini Pro is paying a nice homage to the legendary SE/30.
There is a solution to your problem. Don't buy the mini, or anything else from Apple. Vote with your dollars.

Apple charges what they charge, people pay what Apple charges. There is an implied agreement between the buyer and seller where the buyer will only pay what they think is reasonable, the seller charges what the buyer is willing to pay.

Apple has become a very successful company selling at their prices and buyer buying at those prices. Apple is not the only computer product available. Prices for storage and memory increases are about the same on the Surface products as Apple.
 
The fact that the M4 base Mac mini can actually play AAA games with very respectable frames says different. No longer are Mac users stuck with integrated Iris chipsets that can barely push the desktop.

So I’d say the average person is actually gaming on entry level Macs like the mini and Air.

Next.

It can't actually because AAA games use way too much of the base 256 GB SSD.

A single AAA game - maybe :D


Point being, if you want a AAA game capable device, you aren't buying a baseline machine from any vendor.
 
This is where the cognitive dissonance of defending Apple’s RAM and SSD specs creeps in: every other aspect of the M4 Mini is wildly excessive for “banking, basic spreadsheets etc.” - that’s a job for a $400 iPad, $200 Chromebook or <$400 PC Laptop. You don’t need a 10 core processor for that, or a 10 core GPU, a neural engine, or 3 x 40 Gbps Thunderbolt that can support multiple 6k displays… yet, somehow, that’s all fine and dandy, and everybody celebrates that it’s 40% faster than the machine that was already over-specified for your job last year… but RAM and SSD…. Oh, no, customers don’t need that, they’re OK with 2014 specs for just those particular two things…

Yes and no. The mini is still cheap and some people just don't like iPads or tablets for whatever reason - ditto for most Chromebooks, they're crap. If that's what you want or need, it does exist.

The m4 CPU actually isn't overkill for what most people need if you have the foresight to look a little into the future.

Its good number of cores, high single thread speed and decent GPU/NPU mean that people doing exactly those baseline things in the next 3-5 years will be able to get ML/AI assistance with them. Without having to learn new software..

Things like
  • way more advanced on-device email fraud protection
  • way more advanced fraud/phishing website detection
  • assistance with image/video editing media of their kids, family, etc.
  • way better assistive technologies for both the lazy/short of time and those with disabilities (voice recognition, assistance with content generation, etc.)
  • way better pattern recognition / inference of intent for things like spreadsheets, etc. "generate me a pivot table of this data to show me how X is influenced by Y", etc. rather than having to figure it out manually. Or even something like - "get the content out of this Safari table I highlighted, and analyse it for relevant trends"

TLDR: the M4 and other current CPUs are ALL overkill for basic things. The software coming down the pipe is what they're aimed at, not the apps you're running on Snow Leopard.
 
These threads are tiring. 256gb is plenty for the target audience of a base mini. Hell, I'm only using 177gb on my 1tb MBP.

On my MBP:
System Data: 53.89gb
MacOS: 20.23gb
Total: 74.12gb

For people using a base mini, for what a base mini is for, this is plenty of storage.

Why is it that people always want base models to perfectly fit their non-base use cases? If you need more, buy more.
 
Why is it that people always want base models to perfectly fit their non-base use cases? If you need more, buy more.

There's a very vocal minority who want apple hardware for pc hardware pricing, and it just isn't feasible.

If you want PC hardware pricing, buy pc hardware, and deal with the pc hardware build quality, OS quality, advertising everywhere subsidising it, finger pointing from OS vendor to hardware driver vendor and vice versa when there's a software problem, etc.

I get it, I used to want Mac at PC price too, but you're buying an entirely different category of product. I've built heaps of PCs over the past 30 years, way higher spec than what apple had at the time - but I've gone pretty much entirely Mac now. Because what actually matters as far as user experience is concerned is mostly not HARDWARE SPEC.
 
I agree with you here, but I think Apple is doing something people don’t realize. They are over inflating the price of upgrades to keep the base price lower than it should be. Wealthy people that want higher end computers are paying to subsidize computers for poorer people. That’s only my conspiracy theory but I think it makes sense based on Apple’s public statements. Obviously, I can’t discuss the details of why here because that would be not allowed on this forum. Either way it doesn’t bother me personally.
Thats an interesting theory but I wonder how much they actually make on upgrades.

I am willing to bet 95% of consumers buy base Macs vs upgraded versions from Apple directly. I've been buying Macs for 25 years now for me and my family and I have never purchased a custom one directly from Apple, in fact I've never purchased directly from Apple ever. Mostly Best Buy/Retail and some on the used markets because some people feel the need to upgrade and sell barely used macs cheap. When I need a bigger ssd I plug in an external one.

And that may be a reason the upgrades cost more.

It's easier to mass produce 4 versions of the Mini that are available in retail stores than it is to produce 84 variations, which with M4/2 M4Pros/Memory/Storage/Ethernet are how many variations of the Mini there are. The variations that are not mass produced cost more for them to develop/produce/test/ship and they gotta make that money back somewhere, so they inflate the costs of the upgraded models to cover the costs.

Just a thought.
 
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It's easier to mass produce 4 versions of the Mini that are available in retail stores than it is to produce 84 variations, which with M4/2 M4Pros/Memory/Storage/Ethernet are how many variations of the Mini there are. The variations that are not mass produced cost more for them to develop/produce/test/ship and they gotta make that money back somewhere, so they inflate the costs of the upgraded models to cover the costs.
Exactly, have mentioned this in the past. As soon as you go outside of the preconfigured models, you pay the penalty. Because essentially, your BTO order means they need to do a special run rather than pump out another 10,000 models of the preconfigured spec.
 
Thats an interesting theory but I wonder how much they actually make on upgrades.

I am willing to bet 95% of consumers buy base Macs vs upgraded versions from Apple directly. I've been buying Macs for 25 years now for me and my family and I have never purchased a custom one directly from Apple, in fact I've never purchased directly from Apple ever. Mostly Best Buy/Retail and some on the used markets because some people feel the need to upgrade and sell barely used macs cheap. When I need a bigger ssd I plug in an external one.

And that may be a reason the upgrades cost more.

It's easier to mass produce 4 versions of the Mini that are available in retail stores than it is to produce 84 variations, which with M4/2 M4Pros/Memory/Storage/Ethernet are how many variations of the Mini there are. The variations that are not mass produced cost more for them to develop/produce/test/ship and they gotta make that money back somewhere, so they inflate the costs of the upgraded models to cover the costs.

Just a thought.
That’s also a good possibility. Maybe it’s a mixture of both, but who knows. Well, Tim knows but he’s not telling.
 
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It can't actually because AAA games use way too much of the base 256 GB SSD.

A single AAA game - maybe :D


Point being, if you want a AAA game capable device, you aren't buying a baseline machine from any vendor.
Ah they aren’t all that bad. RE games clock in around 60GB. Most are close. Not everything is 180GB. With that said, software doesn’t give aff about your storage space and even most pics clock in around 15MB. The entire world is moving to hi fidelity. 256GB is insultingly low given how much SSDs cost these days.
 
So….you really, truly believe that the nands used by apple are really worth 200 bucks per each 256 gb?

Yikes….


But lets say that there is a possibility that you are either trolling or being a fake white knight, here is another one with better reviews and perhaps a better brand.

.View attachment 2455939
I'll raise you another, good sir! This is what I put in my Windows laptop. SK hynix actually makes the NANDs for some of the bigger brands. It's not some sketchy bargain brand. 2TB for $135
 

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While, that post has a point though: for the upgrade price to from 256GB to 2TB on the mini (920 euro), I can buy:
*a PS5 Pro, which has a faster 2TB ssd: 750 euro
*and a 2TB SSD that is faster than the mini's from a reputable brand (Lexar, Samsung, etc): 130 euro.
And have money to spare to buy a PS5 game.
So yes, the upgrade prizes from Apple are outrageous.
Thank you for the point of comparison. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
 
The odd thing about this entire argument is they really finally do have something for "prosumers" and its this setup.

The arguments posed here would have been more valid any other Mini release cycle but this Mac Mini is insanely powerful, and they finally did away with the 8GB base. If you upgrade to the $999 model with 24gb memory and 512Gb you have a machine that is nearly as powerful as the Pro systems people paid thousands for just a couple years ago and for the $1399 M4 Pro it is way more powerful.

You can find/build cheap PC systems, but I just bought my son a gaming PC for Christmas and spent 2K on it. If I put together a 2K Mac Mini it would be a beast in an awesomely tiny form factor. Name brand PCs with sleek designs aren't cheap and that is who Apple is competing with.
Have you seen the price for upgrading to 2TB? I can only see the Danish prices now but it’s around 5x the price for a 2TB stick.
My 1TB iMac is already full.

I do not disagree that the new Mac Mini is truly powerful and a pretty good bargain in Apples world. But upgrading storage to avoid desktop clutter or relying on iCloud for storage is still way too expensive. Plus if the SSD craps out you have to buy a new computer. How eco-friendly and green is that?
 
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Who knows, but a search on Tim Cook donating his entire fortune to charity will confirm the pledge he made years ago, so apparently all the work he's doing for Apple (and its shareholders) has nothing to do with enhancing his personal wealth but perhaps it's merely a sense of duty?
You can’t be serious where else is he going to do with his billion? Let Uncle Sam have it instead? 😂
 
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However, "Linux Desktop looks like it will never happen."

Strikes me as uninformed nonsense.
I have been using Linux for a long time, but i cant pretend that they have the desktop market in any meaningful way.
Heck, 30 years after and its still hovering around 2-3 %.

How bad is it?

Like this:

Boss: lets release our latest Creative Cloud on Linux!
Dev: Cool, which way would you like it created, RPM, Deb, AppImage, FlatPack, Snap, Tar or give them the source code and let them compile it themselves?
Boss: never mind, let’s continue with exe and dmg.

MS is giving Linux the keys to the kingdom with the mess that Win 11 is, but Linux is still not ready.
MY mother (currently 94 and counting)
May she continue being blessed and enjoy many, many more. 🙏🏽
Grow up, move on and put a sock in it.
Thats….not mature at all, but hey, if you say so…🤣

Love the excuses saying “just get external storage”.

Thats just wrong on a desktop computer.

Again, i dont understand why people side with a trillion dollar company and furiously attack other consumers that simply want more for their money.
 
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Again, i dont understand why people side with a trillion dollar company and furiously attack other consumers that simply want more for their money.

As an example:

Mercedes might charge $500 for heated seats.
Kia might charge $100 for heated seats.

Do you post this way on the Mercedes forum, or do you accept that Mercedes simply charges more because they can?

You can want more for less all you want, but that won't change the price of eggs.
 
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You’re probably right, but also it doesn’t matter what their feelings or motivations are but rather what they’re doing. It’s like they donate millions to charity and help lots of people. Do I think Apple or Tim are genuinely doing this out of some warm feeling in their hearts? Absolutely not. Do I think the people on the receiving end of these generous donations care? Absolutely not. I don’t think people that buy a Mac mini for $600 care how Apple does it but just the fact that they get it.

I don’t believe that you do anything out of the kindness of your heart. Why would you do it if there nothing in it for you?
 
I have been using Linux for a long time, but i cant pretend that they have the desktop market in any meaningful way.
Heck, 30 years after and its still hovering around 2-3 %.

MS is giving Linux the keys to the kingdom with the mess that Win 11 is, but Linux is still not ready.
Why "Linux isn`t here" on desktops.... First, a lot of resources was used to prevent it. They focused upon stopping them by document formats and public sector back ends - which were the most likely points needed for success. Without that, Linux was never going to succeed on desktop. Also worth remembering the huge shift towards cellulars/pads at the time, which of course is mainly (only) *nix. A lot of resources went that way.

Maya, Blender, DaVinciResolve, there are pretty sophisticated software on Linux, disappointing when AutoCAD pulled the Linux edition. Linux desktops were sophisticated and solid a long time ago. But of course Ubuntu had to make their own, and of course every distro had to provide all available desktops and the full universe of what not. In my opinion the most stupid thing they ever did. Sort of kept everything that should have been killed, alive everywhere.

Besides, you don`t need enemies if you have friends like Nat Friedman and Miguel de Icaza.

Thats….not mature at all, but hey, if you say so…🤣

Love the excuses saying “just get external storage”.

Thats just wrong on a desktop computer.

Again, i dont understand why people side with a trillion dollar company and furiously attack other consumers that simply want more for their money.
It`s not mature, i was kind of making a point being as infantile as this eternal moaning is.

Apple will continue to follow their strategy regardless of these comments, the way to make them react is if they connect a VERY notable drop in sales to the issues at question. "Move on or shut your gabber" is pretty good advise IF having reasons for complaining.

Most of all it strikes me as a pathetic abuse of moral indignation. "I need something to complain about" and pick "my thing" online. Vote with your wallet or loose the venom. Claiming 16/512 as minimum for M2 Minis to function is as lame as claiming no one neds a specced out one. As for the M4 16 it isn`t really an upgrade given that AI probably will be utilised a lot more by apps and OS functions in rather short time from now. It is adjusting the minimum to anticipated future need of resources.
 
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Mercedes might charge $500 for heated seats.
Kia might charge $100 for heated seats.

Do you post this way on the Mercedes forum, or do you accept that Mercedes simply charges more because they can?

People can post whatever they like on the Mercedes forum - if they want to criticise Mercedes’ prices that’s fine (I’d assume that they do) - and “stop complaining and go buy a Kia then” would still be a lame, lazy defence.

Anyway, in this case, it’s more like “forget cheap Asian cars, even Audi only charge $250 for heated seats” (that’s made up but, e.g. the MS Surface Laptop only costs an extra $100 for 512GB)

You can want more for less all you want, but that won't change the price of eggs.

Seems to work sometimes:


Plus, despite all the same defences being raised for why 8GB RAM was enough for “the target market” until a few weeks ago, Apple have just shown that it was perfectly possible to supply 16GB as standard.
 
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Seems to work sometimes:

Plus, despite all the same defences being raised for why 8GB RAM was enough for “the target market” until a few weeks ago, Apple have just shown that it was perfectly possible to supply 16GB as standard.

The difference between buying an option and paying for a subscription to activate hardware already in the car is beyond Apples and Oranges.
 
- and “stop complaining and go buy a Kia then” would still be a lame, lazy defence.

Plus, despite all the same defences being raised for why 8GB RAM was enough for “the target market” until a few weeks ago, Apple have just shown that it was perfectly possible to supply 16GB as standard.
"The only thing corporations understand is profitability and loss of revenue", so yeah, if you are serious about the sobbing, drop Apple and get something else. Apple sells products and are fully entitled to charge whatever they like, like any other entity selling their products in a open market.

You: Are free not to purchase anything whatsoever from Apple. IF or when you do, it is your choice, not Apples.
 
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You: Are free not to purchase anything whatsoever from Apple. IF or when you do, it is your choice, not Apples.
People keep posting that as if it is some sort of genius insight that nobody understands.

People here are also free to criticise Apple if they don’t like their policies.
 
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The fact that the M4 base Mac mini can actually play AAA games with very respectable frames says different. No longer are Mac users stuck with integrated Iris chipsets that can barely push the desktop.

So I’d say the average person is actually gaming on entry level Macs like the mini and Air.
There are also was pretty solid games available on macOS depending on what kind of games you play. Psychonauts 2, ARMA 3, Cult of the Lamb, Stardew Valley, Baulder's Gate 3, Hades I & II, Lies of P, Subnautica, Cuphead, Metro Exodus, and Disco Elysium just to name a handful. Now of course not all of these are Universal Apps and will run through Rosetta but if the benchmarks of games like Shadow of the Tomb Raider are an indicator of the base M4's performance while running games in Rosetta then your average person is going to be happy with it.

The only thing macOS currently does not have are some of the more popular games like Call of Duty and Fortnite. There are ways around this of course like with GeForce Now but that is an additional service.

edit/P.S.: there is also emulation. PCSX2, Duckstation, Dolphin, and RPCS3 are emulators that come to find that both Universal Apps and use Metal.
 
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