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Ready to go Blu-Ray. Anything I should be aware of?

goMac said:
You do know Ars has already done a direct comparison, right?

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/03/the-ars-itunes-1080p-vs-blu-ray-shootout/

Considering how big those pictures were blown up, you'd need a big display to tell the difference.

Good commentary on the comparison too. Even has nice direct comparison screenshots.
http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1169565

Like the Ars article notes, the only reason I ever buy Bluray is when I want the surround sound. If you don't have surround sound, what's the point?

BRD is a drm'd format anyway. It's not like you've bought a disk that will even necessarily play forever...
Click to expand...

I'm aware of the comparison that Ars did. There is a very noticeable difference with all the films I've looked at so far, on my 30" ACD. Maybe with some newer, digitally shot films the difference would be harder to notice.

Also, there will always be a way to play Blu-Ray discs. The data is on the disc. I don't expect Macgo's Blu-Ray Player to be my solution forever, but there will always be a solution because there are always talented people out there who care enough.

If down the road there is no software solution to play them live, there will at least be a software that can rip the films uncompressed into video files.. and by that point hard drives will be large enough that I'll be able to rip the whole collection in full quality, and essentially have better quality versions of the 1080p iTunes downloads that people would have been buying while I was buying the physical discs.
 
StephenCampbell said:
I'm aware of the comparison that Ars did. There is a very noticeable difference with all the films I've looked at so far, on my 30" ACD. Maybe with some newer, digitally shot films the difference would be harder to notice.
Click to expand...

You've really bought all the films you've watched so far on 1080p in iTunes?

At the end of the day none of this really matters anyway. And if you're that big into quality, Bluray is about to get outdated by 4k anyway. I'm not sure why if you're trying to get highest quality, you'd chose this point in time to start buying Blurays.

And the great thing about online distribution is they can keep enhancement the quality without having to press new disks. All my 720p purchases are now 1080p, a neat trick your Bluray disks can't pull off.

StephenCampbell said:
Also, there will always be a way to play Blu-Ray discs. The data is on the disc. I don't expect Macgo's Blu-Ray Player to be my solution forever, but there will always be a solution because there are always talented people out there who care enough.
Click to expand...

From what I can tell, Macgo has already had trouble with this as they've had to swap their decode key. (This also makes me think they're not actually a legitimate. Normal commercial players aren't constantly swapping keys.)
 
goMac said:
You've really bought all the films you've watched so far on 1080p in iTunes?

At the end of the day none of this really matters anyway. And if you're that big into quality, Bluray is about to get outdated by 4k anyway. I'm not sure why if you're trying to get highest quality, you'd chose this point in time to start buying Blurays.

And the great thing about online distribution is they can keep enhancement the quality without having to press new disks. All my 720p purchases are now 1080p, a neat trick your Bluray disks can't pull off.



From what I can tell, Macgo has already had trouble with this as they've had to swap their decode key. (This also makes me think they're not actually a legitimate. Normal commercial players aren't constantly swapping keys.)
Click to expand...

How do you upgrade your 720p purchases for free? I only have two films I've purchased in iTunes, and they're both 720p right now.

Edit: Also, Blu-Ray is still in its beginnings. Things will loosen up as time passes.

Edit 2: To answer your question.. I want to have the films that I love in the highest quality physical medium available. It's that simple. I loved having my films on my shelf on DVD, and since there is a better version of DVD, I upgrade them. Simple. I'm not worried about the future.
 
When the average movie rental place has 90% Blu-Ray, Blu-Ray playback will be natively supported on Mac.

I think you're underestimating the degree to which the Official Successor to DVD will have to expand and loosen up as it actually fully eclipses DVD. Which it will. With time.
 
StephenCampbell said:
When the average movie rental place has 90% Blu-Ray, Blu-Ray playback will be natively supported on Mac.
Click to expand...

I sympathize with you, but both disc and movie rental places are dying. Compared to last year, disc rentals at bricks-and-mortar stores fell 29.4%, and disc subscription rentals (like Netflix) fell 48.1%. What is replacing it? Well, streaming is up an astonishing 545.4% over the same period. Article here.

StephenCampbell said:
I think you're underestimating the degree to which the Official Successor to DVD will have to expand and loosen up as it actually fully eclipses DVD. Which it will. With time.
Click to expand...

Blu-ray is not loosening up. Quite the opposite. It has already added two additional levels of DRM:

Starting in 2010, all new players can only output SD over analog connections. HD requires HDMI.

Starting in 2012, all new players must support Cinavia watermarking.

Blu-ray was designed from the ground up to be able to add new types of DRM. Steve was right when he said it was a "bag of hurt".

I am a huge fan of BD, but the reality is that that you and I, Stephen, are on the losing side.
 
My my my. The anti-Blu-ray crowd is all fired up. I don't know why so many Apple fans are so invested in the idea that Blu-ray must fail. Does it conflict with Apple's money inflow? Yes of course and so it must be the often mentioned Bag of Hurt.

And so what it Blu-ray isn't as popular as digital download. Popular equals quality? It's already an established fact that people will choose convenience over quality. Why else would consumers buy crappy iTunes music downloads instead of taking the time to get a CD and listen to better sounding loss-less files in iTunes?

Does popularity really matter? Most people don't use Photoshop. It's too complicated and too expensive. Most people don't use high-end GPUs, they're too expensive and are beyond what most users need.

If you begin to judge things by what Apple (for its own self serving reasons does) you'll begin to think that a base mini or a MacBook Air is state of the art and what everyone needs. Fine computers they are but they definitely are not what serious, discriminating performance users want.

I agree with the OP and other knowlegeable people. Blu-ray offers the best audio/video quality right now, and for a reasonable price. Just like I buy my music on CD, or better yet, hi-def downloads from HDTracks I use Blu-ray. Here's why;

Blu-ray has more sound options than digital downloads.

Blu-ray has a better picture quality than digital downloads. Slightly better is still better. "Slightly" matters if you really care about the quality of what you watch.

Blu-ray is flexible. With iTunes downloads I have to live with Apple's goofy rules and play them on the machines that Apple says I can play them on. How stupid. With Blu-ray I own the disk and have a license to play it at home, take it to a friend's house or loan it to somebody. Current thought says that I can even make a digital backup copy of Blu-ray disks I own for my own use. I usually just play the mkv version rather than grabbing the disk from a shelf.

Blu-ray is often cheaper. Especially for older movies iTunes downloads are stupidly expensive. Amazon has great prices on Blu-ray movies, sometimes even stupidly cheap.

Blu-ray comes with all of the extras, not just what Apple decides. I can even get combo packs with a DVD copy. Very convenient.

Right now I'm previewing Mac Blu-ray Player. I've got the "Moulin Rouge" Blu-ray disk open on it and an mkv copy running on VLC. The quality looks the same.

If Mac Blu-ray Player turns out to be the player I buy I'll be happy to be able to watch Blu-ray disks on my Mountain Lion Mac Pro rather than booting up Windows 7. At about $100 the LG Blu-ray burner I bought from OWC has turned out to be a great addition to my setup.
 
StephenCampbell said:
Remember how confident I was, based only on the appearance of the Shawshank Blu-Ray, that there was no way the iTunes could look as good? I feel the same way about all the Blu-Rays I've looked at so far (I've also watched The Duchess and Elizabeth within the last few days).
Click to expand...
Good thing you don't even need to actually compare them with the iTunes version to make a conclusion that the iTunes version is far inferior. This is exactly why I said you must be trolling. Building a conclusion of the iTunes quality version that you've literally never seen before. Wow.

Placebo mode is in full effect on this one.
You only see what you want to see, literally.
 
inaka said:
Good thing you don't even need to actually compare them with the iTunes version to make a conclusion that the iTunes version is far inferior. This is exactly why I said you must be trolling. Building a conclusion of the iTunes quality version that you've literally never seen before. Wow.

Placebo mode is in full effect on this one.
You only see what you want to see, literally.
Click to expand...

I turned out to be very right about Shawshank. I don't know about the others obviously. I simply said that they seem to be like Shawshank was in terms of looking too good to possibly be matched by iTunes. But Shawshank is the only one I know for sure, because I actually compared it.

Inaka, I think you're the one who's trolling.. or you have some agenda or something. You keep rudely telling me that I'm delusional and that it's impossible to notice the difference between iTunes 1080p and Blu-Ray, which is simply not true. They exist in two different, clearly defined realms of picture quality.
 
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ActionableMango said:
I sympathize with you, but both disc and movie rental places are dying. Compared to last year, disc rentals at bricks-and-mortar stores fell 29.4%, and disc subscription rentals (like Netflix) fell 48.1%. What is replacing it? Well, streaming is up an astonishing 545.4% over the same period. Article here.



Blu-ray is not loosening up. Quite the opposite. It has already added two additional levels of DRM:

Starting in 2010, all new players can only output SD over analog connections. HD requires HDMI.

Starting in 2012, all new players must support Cinavia watermarking.

Blu-ray was designed from the ground up to be able to add new types of DRM. Steve was right when he said it was a "bag of hurt".

I am a huge fan of BD, but the reality is that that you and I, Stephen, are on the losing side.
Click to expand...

So what happens? Discs printed after 2012 won't play in Blu-Ray players manufactured before 2012?

All this DRM stuff is mostly for anti-piracy reasons, and ultimately it will not get in the way of Blu-Ray becoming as widespread as DVD is now. For example, the Mac Blu-Ray Player uses software to decode the security measures on the disc and let it play.. and once it does that once, I don't need to be connected to the internet to play that disc in the future on my machine.

I could disconnect this machine from the internet permanently, keep everything as is, and be able to play my Blu-Ray collection forever, no matter what.

This means that at any point in time, Sony can decide, through the employment of software, to unlock discs, to make them more accessible, etc.. they can do whatever they want. The DRM stuff isn't going to go away.. but it will simply be taken care of in all areas, allowing consumers to treat Blu-Rays much the same way they currently treat DVDs. The DRM decoding will simply be everywhere.

But in any case, the statistical trends of physical media vs. online options don't trouble me too much, because of course they're going to go drastically in the direction of online distribution right now.. but that says nothing about what will happen over the next twenty years.

And even if this is a battle that we are losing, I'm enjoying the fight very much. Blu-Ray discs are beautiful in every way, and I'm excited to have a large collection of them on my shelf.. they seem to me to be the only logical option right now for high quality film viewing.

I buy these discs in defiance of Apple, and I know that my actions contribute to the assurance we all have that there will always be a way to play Blu-Rays on Mac for those who want it. I'm playing my part to ensure it.

And for the sake of it, I'm now going to stop buying even music from iTunes, because I think the world of impulse-gratification at the cost of quality is a disaster.
 
StephenCampbell said:
Inaka, I think you're the one who's trolling.. or you have some agenda or something. You keep rudely telling me that I'm delusional and that it's impossible to notice the difference between iTunes 1080p and Blu-Ray, which is simply not true. They exist in two different, clearly defined realms of picture quality.
Click to expand...
More words I never said. Never said you're "delusional" never used the word "impossible" and never said that there would be no difference at all between iTunes 1080p and Blu-Ray. This is why I'm saying you're trolling. I'm saying that the differences you are describing where YOU SAID iTunes looked like SD compared to the bluray version is just absurd.

Again, try reading what I'm actually writing, instead of what you want me to write. Then again, you've already concluded that the iTunes versions of some movies you've admitted to never even seeing are also likely inferior, so I don't think actual data means much when someone has their mind already made up even before seeing things. Oh well.
 
StephenCampbell said:
So what happens? Discs printed after 2012 won't play in Blu-Ray players manufactured before 2012?
Click to expand...

Yes, this has happened many, many times. There are many threads in home theater forums about how new discs won't play on older players.

StephenCampbell said:
I could disconnect this machine from the internet permanently, keep everything as is, and be able to play my Blu-Ray collection forever, no matter what.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. I wonder what happens if your computer breaks or becomes obsolete. Can you transfer the unlocked status to your new computer?

StephenCampbell said:
This means that at any point in time, Sony can decide, through the employment of software, to unlock discs, to make them more accessible, etc.. they can do whatever they want.
Click to expand...

Well anything is possible. Apple removed DRM from their music after all. However, the trend in BD is completely the opposite and already dozens of titles won't play on older players.

StephenCampbell said:
And even if this is a battle that we are losing, I'm enjoying the fight very much. Blu-Ray discs are beautiful in every way, and I'm excited to have a large collection of them on my shelf.. they seem to me to be the only logical option right now for high quality film viewing.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you. I only buy BDs. Especially on sale and around the holidays they can be had for around $10. When you can get a great picture, lossless audio, and lots of great features for around $10, there is no comparison.

Streaming is, for me, nothing more than a convenient way to watch mediocre TV shows.
 
inaka said:
More words I never said. Never said you're "delusional" never used the word "impossible" and never said that there would be no difference at all between iTunes 1080p and Blu-Ray. This is why I'm saying you're trolling. I'm saying that the differences you are describing where YOU SAID iTunes looked like SD compared to the bluray version is just absurd.

Again, try reading what I'm actually writing, instead of what you want me to write. Then again, you've already concluded that the iTunes versions of some movies you've admitted to never even seeing are also likely inferior, so I don't think actual data means much when someone has their mind already made up even before seeing things. Oh well.
Click to expand...

Jesus christ. Yes, I exaggerated a little bit. I had them side by side on my screen and was amazed by the difference. It's not SD to HD, but if DVD is 1 and Blu-Ray is 10, I'd say iTunes 1080p lies between 5 and 7, depending on the film.

And in terms of my assumptions about films I haven't compared, I am going based on the way the Blu-Ray looks, combined with my past experience watching Several films in iTunes 1080p. I'm simply looking at the picture and saying "there's no way iTunes could look like this with the compression they employ." Obviously I can't know for sure with each and every film, but it's the same way you might say "Oh, you have an appointment 2000 miles away in 30 minutes? You'll never make it in time!" How do you know? You know because your brain puts together pieces of information based on past experiences about how long it takes to drive, to fly, etc. You don't need to have ever travelled 2000 miles to know this, if you've travelled at least one or two.

Ever heard the concept "Educated Assumption"?
 
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StephenCampbell said:
I'm offering $10,000 to the first person who can catch me confused over which is which on a 30" ACD. You're welcome to have me over to your house (as long as you have a 30" ACD), and put the iTunes 1080p and Blu-Ray versions of a film side by side in a blind test for me. If I get even 1 out of 100 screenshot comparisons wrong, you get $10,000.

Before I get hot headed again...
Click to expand...

You will pause for a cool refreshment and reread the second part of what I wrote?

Part #1 (Placebo Effect) was what you've taken exception to.

Part #2 acknowledges your claim of seeing a difference as valid. However, it postulates the root cause as likely being attributable to file compression at a given resolution, which has nothing to do with 720 vs 1080.

The report from Ars does indicate that Apple's compression does result in a bit of softening, which will also vary depending on the challenges of the scene. For someone who insists on nothing less than the best possible picture at all times, this is an issue, but for this demographic, they will also be highly into the specifics of the of the quality of the process by which a legacy film has been digitized...too.


-hh
 
ActionableMango said:
Yes, this has happened many, many times. There are many threads in home theater forums about how new discs won't play on older players.



Perhaps. I wonder what happens if your computer breaks or becomes obsolete. Can you transfer the unlocked status to your new computer?



Well anything is possible. Apple removed DRM from their music after all. However, the trend in BD is completely the opposite and already dozens of titles won't play on older players.



I completely agree with you. I only buy BDs. Especially on sale and around the holidays they can be had for around $10. When you can get a great picture, lossless audio, and lots of great features for around $10, there is no comparison.

Streaming is, for me, nothing more than a convenient way to watch mediocre TV shows.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm not disconnecting my computer from the internet... though when I live in a bigger apartment I could set up a different computer for Blu-Ray playing only, and keep it offline all the time to conduct this experiment. The thing I wonder is whether newer versions of the Mac Blu-Ray Player (which is being updated constantly) could cause any of my discs to somehow lock again on my machine.. or whether it does something to them that it can never alter again, leaving them permanently unlocked on this machine, or to the software, or whatever.

But yes, it seems that if I kept version 2.5.1 of the player, and unplugged the internet, this computer would be able to play these discs until it dies from old age or power outlets are changed or whatever... haha.

I'm not doing that though because I trust that there will always be a solution. Right now this is working extremely well, and I'm really just not worried about the future. I feel that either Blu-Ray will die within 5 years, or it will become more accessible. One of those has to happen. And as Mac Blu-Ray Player has shown us, it is very easy to grant people accessibility, to old discs or new, through the use of software... and Sony will not let Blu-Ray die, no matter what it takes.

----------
-hh said:
You will pause for a cool refreshment and reread the second part of what I wrote?

Part #1 (Placebo Effect) was what you've taken exception to.

Part #2 acknowledges your claim of seeing a difference as valid. However, it postulates the root cause as likely being attributable to file compression at a given resolution, which has nothing to do with 720 vs 1080.

The report from Ars does indicate that Apple's compression does result in a bit of softening, which will also vary depending on the challenges of the scene. For someone who insists on nothing less than the best possible picture at all times, this is an issue, but for this demographic, they will also be highly into the specifics of the of the quality of the process by which a legacy film has been digitized...too.


-hh
Click to expand...

Okay. Thanks for the clarification. I was never talking about 720p at all. I was simply saying exactly that.. that the iTunes 1080p looked significantly softer than the Blu-Ray, to the point where the fine details of peoples faces were getting mushed over. That's why I said it was a drastic difference.
 
Stephen -

Sorry to redirect the discussion, but on the hardware side of things; Which model drive did you purchase (you previously linked to the WH14NS40) and does it have any of the common issues with sleep or spinning up? Any adverse or unexpected behavior at all?

I just put a CH08LS10 in my 1,1 and it has all of the weird behavior (sleep, spinning up).

Thanks!
 
gwimby said:
Stephen -

Sorry to redirect the discussion, but on the hardware side of things; Which model drive did you purchase (you previously linked to the WH14NS40) and does it have any of the common issues with sleep or spinning up? Any adverse or unexpected behavior at all?

I just put a CH08LS10 in my 1,1 and it has all of the weird behavior (sleep, spinning up).

Thanks!
Click to expand...

This is the one I got: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/LG/WH14NS40MP/

I have had "Put hard disks to sleep when possible" unchecked for the last several years.. so I actually don't even know what side effects might show up if I tried to have this drive in there while having that checked.

The only slightly annoying thing is how loudly the drive spins discs while playing them.. and it seems to read discs slower than the SuperDrive in the lower bay. Like, response times for fast forward, rewind, etc are a bit slower than with the SuperDrive, and it has to spin the disc up a lot.

Also, about half the time now, when I put the computer to sleep, something in the machine remains spinning for quite a while even after it appears to have "shut down" and the light is already pulsing. It can take a couple minutes even, for the machine to go silent.. I'm not sure if that's caused by the Blu-Ray drive or not.

Anyway, none of these issues really bother me.. I'm only describing them here since you asked. My experience has essentially been a glitch-free one.
 
One thing to note about the current LG drives that OWC is selling (the 14x) is that Riplock cannot be removed at this time. They use a different chipset than previous LG drives.

FYI, Riplock prevents you from ripping Blu-ray disks at any sort of high speed.
 
inaka said:
Yeah, I know.


And we all know what happens to those who assume...
Click to expand...

Educated assumption.

Meaning that it is based on experience, and has a much-higher-than-random-guess probability of being correct.

Michael Clayton would be a good one to compare, don't you think? I'm thinking of maybe renting the iTunes 1080p.
 
Stephen -

Thanks for the quick response! Glad to hear that you are happy with it.

brentsg -

Always something, isn't it? Is there a preferable model out there for Mac Pros without this riplock "feature"?
 
The frustrating thing for me in all of this is that I am vehemently against piracy, so I am in favor of them doing whatever they need to do to prevent it.. but then people like me get punished. I want to give them my money.. I love their product and I want to use it... and it's made complicated by the fact that there are millions of people out there ready and willing to steal if it is possible.
 
Stephen,

I ended up buying the software during the sale too. I was wondering if you've tried the AirX feature yet.

I cannot get the AirX feature to work at all. The "Enable AirX" feature is often greyed out with no indication why. One particular time for whatever reason it wasn't greyed out, so I enabled it and tried to use it. However, on the iPhone it just hangs and hangs.

Unfortunately that was the only damn feature I wanted, so it's kind of a bust for me.
 
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