Replacing MBP 16" PC due to CSAM?

[maflynn]

Apple created a method for fighting child abuse without compromising privacy,

Once pandora's box is open, there's no going back. Today its for one reason, tomorrow it will be for another cause. people don't give up their freedoms, privacy and rights in one giant move. Its small baby steps and make no mistake this is a step in the wrong direction.

 

[kevcube]

You can believe that but it's simply not true. Once a company starts to intentionally scan your device looking for something you can't consider them a champion of privacy. Wrap it up however you chose, this action is an invasion of that privacy they said was so important to them and you.

View attachment 1819965

the company which holds the private keys to the software on my device is making it scan itself and snitch on itself for CSAM.

I don't really feel like my privacy has been invaded, I've always had this bargain with apple where I give them money for hardware and just _trust_ they aren't gonna leak/sell my data or release ****** updates with no fix. They aren't doing either of those here.

 

[Mr. Awesome]

The issue is, for a company that marketed itself as a champion of privacy is now suddenly accessing people's devices. Tthe means don't justify the ends. Its a slippery slope of having big brother accessing your data, today it will be one reason, and tomorrow it will be another.

I definitely see why people dislike this, and I agree. However, until said “backdoor” is actually used maliciously, I have no problem with it. Apple has very clearly designed this system for a single purpose. If they wanted to use this as a backdoor in the future, why announce it with all this fanfare and go into detail on how it works? They could have easily baked it into iCloud or hidden it in iOS code, but they didn’t.

Apple also had very good incentive to do this. They don’t want illegal material on their servers, and they thought (perhaps foolishly) that it would make for better marketing if that processing was done on-device where they couldn’t monitor it. Obviously, especially due to the fact that this and the sensitive image detection feature were introduced at the same time, it did not pan out well at all, and a lot of messaging got mixed up.

 

[LeeW]

I keep everything in the cloud and, in doing so, I assume that pretty much all of my stuff is scanned already. My photos are in Google, Amazon and iCloud

And this is fine, you put something on someone else's server then they are perfectly entitled to scan away looking for whatever they look for. By putting anything in the cloud you must accept that unless you rent/own the hardware and encrypt someone can see the content if they wanted to.

my personal stuff is not that interesting.

Neither is mine, but then that is not the point. CSAM is a very strong justification for action that many (most) will simply due to the nature of the subject accept what Apple is doing. But is it a pretext to then progress on to something else? Always how it starts.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I'm going to get the framework laptop myself. https://frame.work

Ooo thanks this wasn't on my radar!

 

[crymimefireworks]

Thanks for all of you sharing tips and suggestions on your experiences with other platforms!

 

[CalMin]

And this is fine, you put something on someone else's server then they are perfectly entitled to scan away looking for whatever they look for. By putting anything in the cloud you must accept that unless you rent/own the hardware and encrypt someone can see the content if they wanted to.



Neither is mine, but then that is not the point. CSAM is a very strong justification for action that many (most) will simply due to the nature of the subject accept what Apple is doing. But is it a pretext to then progress on to something else? Always how it starts.

I think we're in violent agreement. If you read my whole post, I fully agree that Apple has crossed a line with on device scanning. It is wrong in principle and they need to walk it back.

I really dislike slippery slope arguments. This isn't a pretext for something else. In other words, lets not ask them to reverse course on this because of what might happen. Apple needs to understand right NOW that it's wrong to look through MY stuff when it's on MY phone.

 

[Wando64]

The issue is, for a company that marketed itself as a champion of privacy is now suddenly accessing people's devices. Tthe means don't justify the ends. Its a slippery slope of having big brother accessing your data, today it will be one reason, and tomorrow it will be another.

It is a slippery slope, but we are still at the top of the hill.
It seems rather knee-jerk to consider changing platform at this stage… unless someone know that CSAM matching will cause them problems, in which case I don’t know what to say to them other than: sort your life out.

I am annoyed, frustrated and worried for what this can mean in the future.
But the future is not here yet, and it might turn out to be different.

 

[ian87w]

The issue is, for a company that marketed itself as a champion of privacy is now suddenly accessing people's devices. Tthe means don't justify the ends. Its a slippery slope of having big brother accessing your data, today it will be one reason, and tomorrow it will be another.

Yup.
Steve Jobs didn't get to live forever. And neither will Tim Cook nor Craig. Sooner of later, the executives will be replaced. Craig might be able to maintain his pinky promise, but will the next person replacing him do the same? Anybody with a ton of money can be in the board of directors, influencing decisions.

Tim Ho Wan, a Hong Kong based dim sum chain, was just bought 100% by a Filipino fast food chain, Jollibee. Just like that, 100% ownership, by someone from a different country altogether. Companies can change drastically, and with different management, culture and policies will also change. Apple is not immune to this. Cook's Apple is already "different" than Jobs'. What makes people think the current Apple with its pinky promise will be the same forever?

The problem is, the system is already in place. The cat is already out of the bag. The pandora's box is already opened.

 

[ian87w]

Greetings,
For those of you switching, how are you going about making a choice? Since MacOS and Windows are off the table, Linux is a must. Thankfully there are a few Linux-first models appearing:

And I was just going to slowly switch to mac from Windows, and this happened.
I'm afraid Linux is not an option to me as the x86 factor is still there (inefficient). I was really going to wait for the next Apple Silicon Macbook Air to upgrade to from my Windows laptop, but Apple pulled this stunt.

I just decided to embrace the post PC era and went for Android tablet instead to replace my Windows laptop.

 

[Euronimus Sanchez]

A Debloated Windows is a very good options, Windows is a open system, you can disable telemetry, uninstall windows Apps, use mvp hosts to block spam, block ads, Windows have all programs, games, and give more for YOUR money.

But you need some time to optimice it, and built a good configuration.

I will sell my Mac, Watch, iPhone, iPad.

Mac -> Windows debloated, telemetry off, with games,… (can change ram, hdd, Motherboard, and all components)
iPhone -> Android with custom rom, block spam, ads, …
Watch -> Casio with step count and tides… when de battery go down in years replace it! Apple Watch when battery go down, trash it?
iPad -> go to point 2 a good Android mobile with big screen (6,x”)

In this operación I will win money…. and will be more respect with the planet! x)

Privacy with apple x(
Ecology with apple x(
Sabe money without apple x)
That its.

 

[CasualFanboy]

Mac -> Windows debloated, telemetry off, with games,… (can change ram, hdd, Motherboard, and all components)

Windows is not a UNIX/BSD based system and for me, that is a no-go.

Anyone who is using the Mac as a pure desktop and doesn't ever touch any of the UNIX roots should be alright with Windows as a replacement. I used to think Macs were in a different league aesthetically, but starting with the new Big Sur interface they have become just another goofy looking player in the UI game.

 

[CasualFanboy]

And I was just going to slowly switch to mac from Windows, and this happened.

Until this news I would have said it's a great decision.

I'm afraid Linux is not an option to me as the x86 factor is still there (inefficient). I was really going to wait for the next Apple Silicon Macbook Air to upgrade to from my Windows laptop, but Apple pulled this stunt.

I was going to get the next MacBook 16" that's supposed to be released soon, but again with the news, that's never going to happen. Maybe in a few years HelloSystem will be able to run on Mac hardware and I'll convert to that.

Until then, I'm fine with <= Catalina on a 2016 MacBook Pro with Intel hardware, or a new Linux system. But for me, Linux really does meet every one of my expectations of a practical desktop system. It may be less convenient on rare occasions, but I don't mind. In fact, even better, I may install a BSD and see how things are going there. I like both FreeBSD and OpenBSD when I can get the hardware to cooperate.

I just decided to embrace the post PC era and went for Android tablet instead to replace my Windows laptop.

That seems kinda bare-bones. Are these tablets like Chrome Books? Not exactly private either. That's just a Google Chrome kiosk, isn't it?

 

[ian87w]

That seems kinda bare-bones. Are these tablets like Chrome Books? Not exactly private either. That's just a Google Chrome kiosk, isn't it?

I have not used a Chromebook before, but my impression is that Android is more general purpose than ChromeOS. I bought a Samsung Galaxy Tab S7FE. Samsung does a really good job with Dex that the tablet UI is adapted into something for mouse and keyboard.

Barebones is relative. This decision is not overnight. I've been thinking about it since I'm really annoyed with the wintel platform (easily overheat, poor battery life, driver and update issues, Microsoft ditching many hardware with Windows 11, etc). Apple Silicon was my goal. I guess it helped that in my country, Apple stuff is not only expensive, the available configurations are very limited (no BTO), so budget wise, I decided on the Samsung tab.

How can I make the decision? I simply look at the apps I am interacting with 99% of the time. I figured out that they are mostly either cloud based, or have their respective apps on Android (eg. Office 365). Also, android has fully accessible file system, so it's not as jarring going in from Windows. In fact, certain things are better on ARM, such as video encoding, which is ridiculously inefficient on x86. And the standby battery life is night and day. On a portable device like a laptop, I hate it if it needs to be tethered to the power outlet constantly. And I frequently find my laptop out of juice not being used overnight. Meanwhile, right now my Galaxy Tab is humming along for 3 days without needing a charge, not having to worry about overheating and battery life when doing zoom, watching youtube, etc.

Of course, I still have my old mac mini for heavier apps like Illustrator.

 

[TheSynchronizer]

If you’re so bothered by this CSAM scanning fiasco… just turn off iCloud? Flip one switch and that’s all it takes..

I mean since you’re considering switching it’s not like you were going to continue using iCloud anyway, so I see no reason for switching especially since no other offering will be quite so “just works” like macs are.

But to each their own with their paranoias

 

[TheSynchronizer]

And I was just going to slowly switch to mac from Windows, and this happened.
I'm afraid Linux is not an option to me as the x86 factor is still there (inefficient). I was really going to wait for the next Apple Silicon Macbook Air to upgrade to from my Windows laptop, but Apple pulled this stunt.

I just decided to embrace the post PC era and went for Android tablet instead to replace my Windows laptop.

Hey guess what, using iCloud is optional, always has been always will be, so if you don’t want to be affected by this ‘stunt’ to help protect children, simply never use iCloud.

Everyone who is obsessed enough with privacy to the point where hash scanning is a problem should already know that no cloud-based service will ever be 100% privacy respecting.

People love to jump to conclusions about Apple even though all it takes is flipping one switch to regain your hyper need of privacy.

 

[dugbug]

or........just don't upgrade from Big Sur?

or.... uncheck icloud photos

 

[GFLPraxis]

TBH I'm confused as to why your response to CSAM is to change hardware providers.

You can avoid CSAM by simply not using iCloud for your photos. Switch to another cloud provider or manage your own backups, problem solved.

If you switch to Linux you'll also have to switch off of iCloud too, so it's the same work.

 

[iHorseHead]

TBH I'm confused as to why your response to CSAM is to change hardware providers.

You can avoid CSAM by simply not using iCloud for your photos. Switch to another cloud provider or manage your own backups, problem solved.

If you switch to Linux you'll also have to switch off of iCloud too, so it's the same work.

Apple needs to be taught their lesson for lying.

 

[Max48]

If you’re so bothered by this CSAM scanning fiasco… just turn off iCloud? Flip one switch and that’s all it takes..

Yeah.. that’s what I was thinking. Are we missing something here ? I have iCloud services turned off on my Mac anyways because they sometimes hog my CPU.

 

[CalMin]

TBH I'm confused as to why your response to CSAM is to change hardware providers.

You can avoid CSAM by simply not using iCloud for your photos. Switch to another cloud provider or manage your own backups, problem solved.

If you switch to Linux you'll also have to switch off of iCloud too, so it's the same work.

I'm with you on this. Don't use iCloud - problem solved.

But... I can also understand why people are freaking out. The Core OS will now contain code that can scan your stuff on your device. Anything in the cloud is fair game, but this change theoretically includes code that read your stuff on device and tell someone else about it. Sure - it's only scanned if you enable iCloud, but people are losing their minds about the potential for government snooping.

I say, whatever. I use iCloud and fully expect that Apple, the NSA and the spotty teenager next-door can hack into and read my stuff. I'd prefer that they didn't, and I still trust Apple to make sure they don't, but I have no expectation that protection is watertight once it is on someone else's hardware.

Let me be clear - I do think that Apple is on the wrong path here. I don't get what's wrong with just scanning stuff directly in cloud. There's no expectation of infallible privacy there. There is however, 100% expectation that my device should not have code built-in that can scan and report to a 3rd-party.

 

[LeeW]

Whilst I certainly think it tarnishes Apples hitherto stance on privacy I am not about to leave because of it.

I mean if you don't want anyone looking no matter how strong their stance on privacy is then the only way to be sure is to unplug yourself from every online device and never return.

10 years from now privacy will be that thing that we used to think about having.

 

[jeffpeng]

In general: if you are willing to go an extra mile or two Linux is more than capable of running most standard-ish hardware. Maybe not out of the box, but if the GNU/Linux community has one thing going for them, it's that there is some truly amazing in-depth documentation out there. I especially still marvel about the Arch and Gentoo wikis (20 years Gentoo user here, until recently). So: if you are willing to learn, there are infinite resources for every level, from "What is a mouse?" to "asm is too verbose for me".

Lenovo has made some strides to adopt Linux as a valid option, frame.work seems to go long ways to support it (and has really affordable options, and a nice concept, imho), and System76 seems to be a pricey but committed brand that does some quality work.

All that being said: some things just don't fly well with Linux. If you are a gamer you might want to reconsider - but then again if you are a gamer: what business do you have owning a Mac? There are a few key applications that have no good Linux port/counterpart, most notably audio production. This is something MacOS still nails far better than anyone else. If you are a long time Photoshop professional - good luck with GiMP. And so on. See if Linux has what you need, at best: try in a VM for a few days.

And you'll have to live with the fact that with all this freedom and power comes also the responsibility to know your stuff. You are supposed to bring the polish yourself (although popOS is as polished as it gets for Linux).

About why you want to switch .... well. I don't see what the entire commotion is about. At the moment you install system level software somebody else wrote without reviewing the source on a networked device you pretty much trust them to respect your privacy. This idea that it takes some technique or special software to violate it is delusional. It's just a few lines of code, which, if Apple never told you - which, they did anyways -, you wouldn't know it would be on your device. I can guarantee you that you are facing far greater threads to your privacy than a service that routinely checks your photos against a few hash value of well known CSAM content.

Just to shatter your illusion that you control any device you own even more: no matter what OS you are using, there is code IN your machine you cannot control. System76 and Puri.sm go pretty much as far as you can avoiding this, but even those devices run firmware, firmware you cannot choose not to run if you want to use a device, be it your GPU, your WIFI or even your SSD. So if there are any hard backdoors to your device - and I can guarantee you: there are - you have no feasible way of avoiding them, and they are far more dangerous than what Apple just announced in plain sight.

The only thing I personally cannot fathom is how clumsy a trillion dollar corporation can be getting this so wrong PR wise.

 

[crymimefireworks]

It is a slippery slope, but we are still at the top of the hill.
It seems rather knee-jerk to consider changing platform at this stage… unless someone know that CSAM matching will cause them problems, in which case I don’t know what to say to them other than: sort your life out.

I am annoyed, frustrated and worried for what this can mean in the future.
But the future is not here yet, and it might turn out to be different.

For myself, I found myself a few years ago thinking "I know there's a line, but it's simply never been crossed...but what is my line". Turned out I didn't really have a line defined for myself. It was vague, blurry, and without it things continued to always feel uncomfortable and frustrating. Now with more experience setting boundaries, I've discovered I'm able to take action. It's empowering.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I definitely see why people dislike this, and I agree. However, until said “backdoor” is actually used maliciously, I have no problem with it. Apple has very clearly designed this system for a single purpose. If they wanted to use this as a backdoor in the future, why announce it with all this fanfare and go into detail on how it works? They could have easily baked it into iCloud or hidden it in iOS code, but they didn’t.

Apple also had very good incentive to do this. They don’t want illegal material on their servers, and they thought (perhaps foolishly) that it would make for better marketing if that processing was done on-device where they couldn’t monitor it. Obviously, especially due to the fact that this and the sensitive image detection feature were introduced at the same time, it did not pan out well at all, and a lot of messaging got mixed up.

I'm curious, what does it look like when you have a problem with something? Do you take action? Are you sure?

For myself, as I mentioned above for many years I always told myself that when when something became a problem, I would take action. But when I looked back at my track record, I didn't. I made excuses. I just moved the goalposts. "Oh well, sure that happened but it's still okay".

I did it because I was afraid. When I stopped moving my own goalposts, my life changed. For the better. More empowered and strong.