f1sh3r said:
i think that's what he meant...if you've ever been off roading, like rock climbing and mudding, you'd know that 5-10 mph is a pretty acceptable speed, maybe even extreme. 5mph on gravel would suck though.
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Returning my Mac Pro.. sadly
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i think that's what he meant...if you've ever been off roading, like rock climbing and mudding, you'd know that 5-10 mph is a pretty acceptable speed, maybe even extreme. 5mph on gravel would suck though.
MacProGuy said:
it's not a pc. i know it's hard to understand because you saw the commercial and you were confused, but it's still a mac. the fact you call me a hardcore apple fanboy is cute tho, because i've had my powerbook all of 4 months now? i still have my hardcore gaming machine setup for my gaming needs because i'm smart enough to wait and see how things work before dropping 3 grand on a mac to run windows. hang out on the anandtech forums, about once a day we see a thread asking about buying a mac to run windows for college. i guess it's trendy now.
oh, and by the way, everyone already knows it's not ready for prime time. that's why it's called BETA. just fyi.
one more thing, it DOES run windows. and please don't post your horrible comparison to the mystical 150mph offroad vehicle again, it was painful enough the first time.
MS bulldog said:
no, what he meant was that he would expect to be able to drive offroad at 150mph because he can do it on the road and the fantasy truck works on both. i'm quite aware of what he's trying to say, he just picked a terrible way to do it.
Let me just say my feelings on the matter are not the same as MacProGuy (who, by the way he types, looks like he had a different name here just recently). But, I do understand where he is coming from.
I didn't have the expectation that everything would work perfectly and the way I wanted it to. I hoped, sure. But I wasn't expecting it. It's my right as a consumer to return the product if I'm not happy with it. I'm just expressing my experience with the product here in the forums for others who may attempt to purchase the Mac Pro with the same or similar intentions. I've spent the $250 that I'll be paying in restocking, and hopefully my experience will help others save their money for the time being. In a week, everything I've said and my reasons for returning it may go away if Apple fixes the issues. For now, right now, today, the Mac Pro does not make a good Windows machine. That's all I'm saying here folks. It's a GREAT Mac. It's not even a 'good' Windows machine.
I didn't have the expectation that everything would work perfectly and the way I wanted it to. I hoped, sure. But I wasn't expecting it. It's my right as a consumer to return the product if I'm not happy with it. I'm just expressing my experience with the product here in the forums for others who may attempt to purchase the Mac Pro with the same or similar intentions. I've spent the $250 that I'll be paying in restocking, and hopefully my experience will help others save their money for the time being. In a week, everything I've said and my reasons for returning it may go away if Apple fixes the issues. For now, right now, today, the Mac Pro does not make a good Windows machine. That's all I'm saying here folks. It's a GREAT Mac. It's not even a 'good' Windows machine.
f1sh3r said:
don't tell me how you interpreted something posted on the internet. conform to what i said you thought immediately.
tobyg said:
I was researching the issue for a friend with a MBP and I found that installing Windows onto a FireWire drive is no more involved as installing it on any other drive.
Post #11 and post #15 of this thread explains how to do it. However, posts #13 and #20 say that this shouldn't be possible, but post #22 gives a possible explanation as to why it does, in fact, work. In short, you can boot Windows from an external FireWire drive just fine without having to install any hacks.
You are trying to add in support where there is none.tobyg said:
If you are unwilling to learn from your mistakes, then you'll have only yourself to turn to when you repeat them.
Who is being mean now?
Well then, this will be my final response too...
"The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over,
and then expecting different results."
and then expecting different results."
-Albert Einstein
MS bulldog said:don't tell me how you interpreted something posted on the internet. conform to what i said you thought immediately.
the fact that he says a mechanical glitch keeps it going at 5mph makes it obvious he is comparing the speed on/off road to the drive speed in osx/xp. maybe if you read it again?
the problem is that nobody is just going to assume that because they can drive a truck on the road at a certain speed that it will perform the same in a completely different enviornment. apparently when it comes to computers people don't think that clearly?
edited to remove the snippy comment.
tobyg said:
so why drop the money on it before seeing if it'll do what you want? i guess that's what i don't get. this is a pretty good size purchase, and losing 250 bucks isn't exactly chump change. it's completely your right to return it, i just don't get why you bought it so quickly in the first place. i guess going by how windows runs on the other intel macs?
RacerX said:You are trying to add in support where there is none.
If you are unwilling to learn from your mistakes, then you'll have only yourself to turn to when you repeat them.
Who is being mean now?
Well then, this will be my final response too...
"The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing over and over,
and then expecting different results."-Albert Einstein
I do not appreciate your little Einstein quote. What 'mistake' is this you seem to think I am making, over and over?
We seem to have different interpretations of the word 'support'. Go look at the apple Bootcamp page and search for the word 'support'. They seem to use it a lot when referring to the drivers they are including.
If you can not accept this post for exactly what it is, which I have stated many times already, then please move on. If you were looking to run Windows on your Mac Pro, learn from my experience. If you have no interest in installing Windows on a Mac Pro, then move on.
Edit: and yes, I replied to your post when I said I wouldn't. I do not appreciate the snide little comments. There is no need for this.
f1sh3r said:
Exactly. I've seen Windows running great on a Macbook Pro and iMac, first hand. They have had none of the slowness issues I've experienced. Things worked great. My friend has a MBP and uses Windows for his gaming needs and it works great. I based my decision on past experiences. I'm here now sharing my recent experience with the Mac Pro to help others so they can make an informed decision without incurring the time and the cost in testing things out for themselves.
f1sh3r said:
You know, I think when it comes to Apple, they just set high expectations for quality. I purchased my Mac Pro after buying both an iMac Intel and a Mac Book and having very good performance results on both, with OS X and Win XP. If you look at Apple's track record with Boot Camp, thus far, you would think they were doing all the right stuff.
It's just disappointing to see them fumble the ball with their top of the line machine.
My iMac makes a better Windows machine than my Mac Pro, right now.
tobyg said:
well here's to hoping they'll fix it, which i'm sure they will since it's a big selling point for them. altho i think the whole point is "check out windows and os x side by side and see how much better os x is."
tobyg said:
I can't speak to certain aspects of anything you mentioned in your first paragraph. However, suffice it to say I learned my lesson
Anyway,
I'm not so sure it's a GREAT MAC... I had about a 45 minute conversation with someone at the Apple Store about this... and I raised some things they hadn't thought of relative to the Previous G5 Power Mac.
Reasons I think Apple Made a Mistake with the Mac Pro:
#1) Super-Expensive Ram.
A 1GB Mac Pro can not outrun a 2.3Ghz G5 with 3GB Ram. Macs need at LEAST 2 GB to run efficiently. I can take, for high end photoshop and video editing work, a $1200 2.3Ghz G5, spend $999 on 8 Gigs of ram (Trans-Intl), spend $279 on a 6800GT PCI card (CompUSA Mac Section--Dallas), and buy 2 360GB Seagate 7200.10s in Raid 0 for $200 (anyplace online... $99 each)... and I'm at the price of a STOCK Mac Pro 2.66.
If I want to equip the same Mac Pro with the same specs, I will now be at $5900 from the Apple Store in Dallas with Tax.
HOLY CASH COW BATMAN!
This isn't saying that the Mac Pro is a bad machine, it's just stating that if you really want a Power Machine, it's not all that much a Bargain as Apple might have you believe. Sure, BASE PRICE is nice... but add it on... O MY!
Kinda like the Base Price of a good Mercedes is only $29,900... but add sunroof, leather, and a few options, and you are at $50K
(One reason I drive a GTO)...Reason #2:
You take an INCREDIBLY workstation machine, and add a $70 Video Card to run it. OMG! The current 6600 GT STILL Costs more today than that new 7300GT card.
Reason #3:
By utilizing the switch to INTEL, one of the advantages was supposed to be getting away from high-priced Non-Industry Standard Items.
Well, to get a really Niiiiiiice machine... where is the price advantage?
IN MY OWN HUMBLE OPINION, Apple would have been MUCH better served by creating the Mac Pro as follows:
Single Core 2 Duo Processor (upgradeable to the 2.9Ghz), DDR-2 800 Ram (or 667... allows population of 8 Gigs for about $750-$800)... and seamless Windows XP Performance.
Maybe they should just make a model like that called the MacGamer Pro.
tobyg said:
Yup, you're right there is no solution yet. Apple has to release a firmware update that has updated BIOS emulation that supports the faster HD speeds on the SATA bus for the Mac Pro, you of course already know this
I was able to get parallels running on my Mac Pro, it works great for my needs, and if I need to do any gaming on it, I switch over to boot camp which is installed on a PATA drive that according to sisoft sandra is running in UDMA4 mode, so it's not that bad.
Anyway, sorry it didn't work out for you, for now I the setup works fine for me, and I can wait for apple to release a firmware update to fix the problem.
Laslo Panaflex said:Yup, you're right there is no solution yet. Apple has to release a firmware update that has updated BIOS emulation that supports the faster HD speeds on the SATA bus for the Mac Pro, you of course already know this
I was able to get parallels running on my Mac Pro, it works great for my needs, and if I need to do any gaming on it, I switch over to boot camp which is installed on a PATA drive that according to sisoft sandra is running in UDMA4 mode, so it's not that bad.
Anyway, sorry it didn't work out for you, for now I the setup works fine for me, and I can wait for apple to release a firmware update to fix the problem.
Go download and install http://www.hdtune.com . SiSoft didn't seem to always report the speed properly. Device manager will show you what speed you're running at, and hdtune can also show you (and you can test the speed pretty well with hdtune... sisoft gives you absolutely no feedback when it is running the test so you have to wait till the end to figure out you're only getting 3.5MB/s).
I appreciate when people post their problems as it helps me understand better what I'll be getting into, or if I need to avoid something.
Last week I ordered a BTO MP which won't get here until the last week of september. I have faith that by then there will be a firmware update to fix the SATA issue.
I remember when the MP first came out people had a hard time getting bootcamp to work until 1.1 was released shortly after. I don't even think the MP is listed yet as one of the supported machines with BC.
So to me it's all a matter of time.
If I were you toby, I'd keep it and play with it for the next couple of weeks as a previous posted said, the restocking fee won't go up.
I do have a question though, is the slow performance only when installed on a completely separate HD to bypass BC or is there also slow performance when you partition the drive OSX is on and use BC? There's probably no difference, but I just want to check =)
Last week I ordered a BTO MP which won't get here until the last week of september. I have faith that by then there will be a firmware update to fix the SATA issue.
I remember when the MP first came out people had a hard time getting bootcamp to work until 1.1 was released shortly after. I don't even think the MP is listed yet as one of the supported machines with BC.
So to me it's all a matter of time.
If I were you toby, I'd keep it and play with it for the next couple of weeks as a previous posted said, the restocking fee won't go up.
I do have a question though, is the slow performance only when installed on a completely separate HD to bypass BC or is there also slow performance when you partition the drive OSX is on and use BC? There's probably no difference, but I just want to check =)
tobyg said:
You can install the 7800 GTX in the double-wide slot and then install one of these on top of it in the space where the blower fan of a double-wide video card would go (so as to not take-up any other of the PCI Express slots). That should remove the heat generated by the 7800 GTX out of the case. Just be sure to buy a fan whose intake is oriented toward the video card rather than away from it.
Also, I'm not sure if you saw it, but I posted a reply to your reply to my post about Windows on an external FireWire drive (its post #56 above).
damado said:
I only have until the 24th to return it. After that, I can't return it at all.
I never installed XP to the same HD as OSX. I setup OSX in a Raid-0 Mirror and Bootcamp wouldn't even run because of that. I had to extract the dmg with the drivers and burn that outside of Bootcamp.
It shouldn't matter though. All SATA drives show up as being in PIO mode in XP. I imagine the OSX drive itself would run just as slow if you installed XP to that drive.
The original bootcamp didn't support the Mac Pro. They don't seem to even now say that 1.1 officially supports the Mac Pro specifically, they just say "the latest Intel based Macs".
Prior to Bootcamp even supporting the Mac Pro people just found the drivers on the 'net. In fact the chipset drivers, for one, that are included with Bootcamp are even older than the ones you can find on Intel's website for the 5000x chipset. Granted, maybe there was a reason for this... but it didn't help the speed issues at all.
The Inevitable said:
Yeah I could do that with the graphics card.
I did see your post regarding the firewire drive. But i've already gotten around some of the speed issues by putting my drive on the PATA channel. I don't have a FW800 drive and I am not going to invest more money to make this work when it should just work on the SATA channels.
I didn't appreciate you getting offended when I was trying to help you understand your mistake. You asked a question...tobyg said:
"And please enlighten me the use of Bootcamp if its purpose is not to allow Windows to be installed on Macs."
To which I gave you the exact answer.You have stated that this thread was to get your experiences out to others to help them learn from what you went through.
My purpose is equally noble... to re-enforce your experience with a solid reason as to why you made your mistake.
I wasn't arguing about you giving your system back. I think it is a great idea. And I never told you to move on... as it is no more my place to tell you to do that than it was your place to tell me.
What I take exception with is your use of the term support... Apple does not supply Windows with Macs. Apple doesn't even write the Windows drivers that you get with Boot Camp.
And let us not forget what it says on the top of the Boot Camp page (which you haven't read as you keep writing Bootcamp)... it is a beta!
Plus you agreed to the following (to download Boot Camp):
IMPORTANT NOTE: THIS IS BETA, TIME-LIMITED SOFTWARE MEANT FOR EVALUATION PURPOSES ONLY. THIS SOFTWARE SHOULD NOT BE USED IN A COMMERCIAL OPERATING ENVIRONMENT OR WITH IMPORTANT DATA. BEFORE INSTALLING THE APPLE SOFTWARE, YOU SHOULD BACK UP ALL OF YOUR DATA AND REGULARLY BACK UP DATA WHILE USING THE APPLE SOFTWARE.
No Third Party Software Support. Apple has provided, as part of the Apple Software package, access to certain third party software as a convenience. To the extent that the Apple Software contains third party software, Apple has no express or implied obligation to provide any technical or other support for such software. Please contact the appropriate software vendor or manufacturer directly for technical support and customer service related to its software and products.
-and-
No Third Party Software Support. Apple has provided, as part of the Apple Software package, access to certain third party software as a convenience. To the extent that the Apple Software contains third party software, Apple has no express or implied obligation to provide any technical or other support for such software. Please contact the appropriate software vendor or manufacturer directly for technical support and customer service related to its software and products.
You and I may have different interpretations... but then again, we have similar interpretations of final post.
Fortunately, my interpretation of support (and the lack there of) would have saved you from believing Boot Camp would let a Mac replace a Windows PC to the degree that you thought it would... or at least it would have stopped you from trying to assign blame on Apple.
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