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Thanks for posting.

Contrary opinions on this both backed up by quite some experience with other cards.

So we won't know who is wrong until the card actually ships.
Please quit trying to whip up hysteria for no reason.
Aside from the pix I took, I have a 1,1 a 3,1 and a 5,1 here to test cards. They all have same space for cards. If your fine theory is correct, the cards won't fit in ANY Mac Pros.

Great theory.

"Screwgate" was over before it started. Find something else to worry about.
 
They'd be suicidal not to be expanding the card options right now.

First, Apple has totally screwed up the Mac Pro product management. There is a substantial opportunity created by Apple falling on their face to sell cards to those "stuck" on this basic 2009-2012 model to significantly move forward on performance based on buying PCI-e GPU card upgrades. Apple selling cards from the 2009 era only opens the door for others to fill that gap.

If Blackmagic and Nvidia can walk in and say
" ... DaVinci Resolve, colorists seek the highest performance possible from their systems, and with just one of the new Kepler GPUs our users will be able to work with 4K imagery on their Mac Pros in real time. ... " by dropping several thousand dollars on their solution to make a current Mac pro a real-time editing bay then why not. If Apple gets screwed for the next couple of years until that user has money to pay for a new base unit then that is Apple's problem. Apple snoozed and lost.

Second, they have to stay in the game to be eligible to land the job of being selected the default for the next Mac Pro. Yeah the other Macs tends to all swing the same way ( all AMD or all Nvidia) this is the one Mac those vendors can keep a foot in the door even if they loose the much larger contract. Given Intel is increasing taking a larger share of the graphics work home, being picky isn't an option. They can keep a subset (if not all) of the driver team active just with filling competitive gaps on Mac Pro if necessary. The expertise on a Mac Pro oriented driver could be used on next's mobile driver also. There is no huge long term downside in staying in the game if Apple is going to continue to buy significant numbers of discrete GPUs.

Everything Apple is doing right now, or lack of doing like shipping, on the Mac Pro is indicative that they "mothballed" the Mac Pro team and now are stumbling around trying to get it restarted. Keeping a team active, even downsized slightly, is generally more competitive than doing what Apple apparently did.

Just because Apple chose to screw up the Mac Pro as a platform for revenue growth doesn't mean their partners need to do the same thing. In fact, taking advantage of Apple screw ups is generally a good place to make money. Apple does screw up. This sub-market is one of the major instances over last 6-8 years.

I have a hunch the expanded driver set could be because we might see compatibility with PC EFI cards on the new Mac Pro, and the vendors are going all out for adding support because we'll just be able to pop in new PC cards. But certainly some of what we've seen is GPU makers trying to align themselves so that their drivers are available for making OEM cards.

I think Apple knows they dropped the ball on cards, and I think their solution will be opening the floodgates to new EFI PC cards, so they can take themselves out of the situation entirely.
 
If this comes out and it will work in a Mac Pro '08 (3.1) I will definitely buy one!

It seems that performance wise it shouldn't be that different from a GTX 680 MX (the grfx card in a maxxed out iMac 27").

Now... this will give my Mac Pro 3.1 another year to live!!

BTW... and THAT must be one of the reasons why Apple hates the Mac Pro. It simply is too easily upgradeable, i.e. users don't buy a new one often enough. ;)
 
I think Apple knows they dropped the ball on cards, and I think their solution will be opening the floodgates to new EFI PC cards, so they can take themselves out of the situation entirely.

That plus some a newer Mac Pro with lower priced BTO options with no PCI-e GPU cards (presuming has an embedded GPU for TB support so still a full working system ) would be a great move by Apple. If they can slightly crack the $2000 price point barrier that would help offset the damage they are doing now. Minimally, they need to get close to just above $1999.

Apple can drive down the default Mac Pro GPU costs big time if just leverage the volume and discrete GPU components used in other parts of the Mac line up. This also satisfies Apple's OCD need for control since they'll "own" the embedded solution no matter how the user reconfigures the machine later. Users get control over slots. Apple has control on core system. Everybody should be happy if not too greedy.

Apple needs to foster a marketplace where some competitive forces can kick in and they can lower this "Mac/Apple tax" on GPU options. A larger number of users looking to fill empty slots should do that.

That "tax" is not helping the Mac Pro (or Apple) at all. That is even worse now that Intel's and AMD's CPU+GPU combos are gobbling up more of the GPU market. To not have competitive mid-high GPGPU power at market prices is basically to be out of the market where the Mac Pro plays.

However, Apple can't get 100% out of the way as there will need to be at least a subset that qualify for the BTO configs ( or default config if going to ship two standard in every Mac Pro; one embeded , one on card).

In next 3-4 years, if Intel merges a GPU into the Xeon E5 line up new Mac Pro basic design would be aligned. AMD/Nvidia might loose the embedded business on Mac Pros, but that is on track to happen over a sizable fraction of the Mac line up already. ( right now all MBA models , MBP 13" , Mac Mini)
 
That plus some a newer Mac Pro with lower priced BTO options with no PCI-e GPU cards (presuming has an embedded GPU for TB support so still a full working system ) would be a great move by Apple. If they can slightly crack the $2000 price point barrier that would help offset the damage they are doing now. Minimally, they need to get close to just above $1999.

You don't think Apple's subtle nudging in the opposing direction (1,1 dual package $2300, 3,1 cto one socket bare $2300, 4,1 and on single package cpu part $2500) is somewhat contrived and actually driven by costs or a desire to space out pricing tiers? I have always assumed it be this way, although I agree it would sell at that $1999. It's not like the 5770 was an amazing default option even in 2010.

Edit: I can't think of anything that could be embedded here at low cost as E/EP lacks an IGP.
 
That plus some a newer Mac Pro with lower priced BTO options with no PCI-e GPU cards (presuming has an embedded GPU for TB support so still a full working system ) would be a great move by Apple. If they can slightly crack the $2000 price point barrier that would help offset the damage they are doing now. Minimally, they need to get close to just above $1999.

Apple can drive down the default Mac Pro GPU costs big time if just leverage the volume and discrete GPU components used in other parts of the Mac line up. This also satisfies Apple's OCD need for control since they'll "own" the embedded solution no matter how the user reconfigures the machine later. Users get control over slots. Apple has control on core system. Everybody should be happy if not too greedy.

I don't know if these is really much of a change from Apple's current attitudes. Apple has never controlled (or wanted to) what goes in each slot or who can make Mac GPUs. Apple hasn't been encouraging anyone, but they haven't really been standing in anyone's way either.

The stumbling block has been that no one has any interest in making Mac GPUs. Apple's change is that they'd upgrade the Mac Pro, so just like any other Mac shipping today, it ships with the current version of EFI, which is what PC EFI cards need to work.

Apple likely buys all their OEM cards in one or two rounds. The 5870 they're selling today is one they likely spent $300-$350 on making a year ago. How are they going to sell that for $200 or $250? They'd be selling them at a loss.
 
You don't think Apple's subtle nudging in the opposing direction (1,1 dual package $2300, 3,1 cto one socket bare $2300, 4,1 and on single package cpu part $2500) is somewhat contrived and actually driven by costs or a desire to space out pricing tiers?

Contrived? Implying the notion of being artificial, no. As a deliberate structure, yes.

Apple does have pricing barriers. The Mac mini is clearly bracketed by the $999 barrier. The iMac clearly starts at $1,000 and stops $1,999. (minus BTO options )

Given that the Mac Pro's zone should start around slightly over $2,000.

Similarly Mac laptops don't drop below $999. The 13" models are all muddled this year but there probably will be some models terminated this year. I don't expect that overlap to continue much longer.

iPods structured a very similar way. ( overlapping in options but not base prices except for odd ball products. e.g. iPod classic ).

iPad 2 is an anomaly and probably terminated after iPad mini fully gets its feet under it.

You can line up Apple's related product lines (smallest/cheapest to biggest) from left to right and just see the prices progress incrementally from left to right. The pricing is structured on "get more, pay more" guideline.

The gap between the iMac and Mac Pro is bigger than any of the others. It somewhat looks like that is on purpose to give more separation between the upper end BTO options (boost i7 and/or GPU ) for the iMac and Mac Pro. If so, that was a mistake that contributed to the mess that the Mac Pro is in now.

Short term it is a gimmick to goose margins on entry Mac Pro and grow iMac sales. Long term, growth is what matters. Shuffling deck chairs on Mac Pro and iMac won't help. The iMac isn't as competitive inside of its own range. Shrinking Mac Pro sales will just attract internal folks looking to kill it off so resources can be redistributed to their projects. That latter is what appears to be what exactly happened. Someone got the Mac Pro turned off. Not permanently but for a while.



I have always assumed it be this way, although I agree it would sell at that $1999. It's not like the 5770 was an amazing default option even in 2010.

Relative to previous "entry" cards the 5770 was a better "floor" under the performance levels. ( the GT120 of the 2009 mac pro for example was much lower in Nvidia's line up at the time. )


Edit: I can't think of anything that could be embedded here at low cost as E/EP lacks an IGP.

When the MBP 15" needed a dGPU at the 9400M -> Intel chipset transition they just bumped the price by $100. It is doable.

If you are trying to do it with a 5770 like performance level, no. However, pulling a 650M and VRAM out of MBP 15" models and the upper level 21.5" iMac will result in pretty good volume discounts. Similarly, I think an AMD 8750M (or 8770M ) would work well since only have 8x PCI-e v3.0 interfaces ( since the single package E5 1600 has lane constraints if want to provide 4 physical PCI slots of similar width to current Mac Pro. ). They wouldn't get the scale on the GPU with other current Mac models, but the VRAM buys would overlap.

Somewhere around $130 should cover GPU+VRAM+Heatpipe+misc to hook to Thunderbolt. That's lower than the CPU costs for a E5 1620.

If someone needs PCI-e GPU "workstation" 3D graphics they can just buy a card. If no monitors are hooked to the embedded GPU it is "free" source of 600 GFLOPs of processing power that could be put to use. Heavy duty 3D isn't what this embedded GPU needs to cover. Those running modest 3D or most 2D work this will work just fine. There are lots of happy people with MBP 15" and iMacs. (gamers no, but people doing work yes).
 
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Contrived? Implying the notion of being artificial, no. As a deliberate structure, yes.

Apple does have pricing barriers. The Mac mini is clearly bracketed by the $999 barrier. The iMac clearly starts at $1,000 and stops $1,999. (minus BTO options )

Given that the Mac Pro's zone should start around slightly over $2,000.

Similarly Mac laptops don't drop below $999. The 13" models are all muddled this year but there probably will be some models terminated this year. I don't expect that overlap to continue much longer.

I'm aware of the pricing hierarchy there. I also didn't buy into the idea of a 6 core imac that people peddled on here due to the difference in socket/chipset types and release schedules. The mac pros have always been above $2000. The cheapest 1,1 was $2300. When I say it's contrived, I mean that the suggestions that they should drop ECC ram, move away from Xeons and whatever other misguided attempts at reducing the cost of its required list of components largely ignore the fact that Apple probably doesn't want to sell the machine below $2500 or too close to the imac.


The gap between the iMac and Mac Pro is bigger than any of the others. It somewhat looks like that is on purpose to give more separation between the upper end BTO options (boost i7 and/or GPU ) for the iMac and Mac Pro. If so, that was a mistake that contributed to the mess that the Mac Pro is in now.

Short term it is a gimmick to goose margins on entry Mac Pro and grow iMac sales. Long term, growth is what matters. Shuffling deck chairs on Mac Pro and iMac won't help. The iMac isn't as competitive inside of its own range. Shrinking Mac Pro sales will just attract internal folks looking to kill it off so resources can be redistributed to their projects. That latter is what appears to be what exactly happened. Someone got the Mac Pro turned off. Not permanently but for a while.

That was my assumption. I figured they were trying to consolidate the line. What do you mean by "The iMac isn't as competitive inside of its own range."

When the MBP 15" needed a dGPU at the 9400M -> Intel chipset transition they just bumped the price by $100. It is doable.

If you are trying to do it with a 5770 like performance level, no. However, pulling a 650M and VRAM out of MBP 15" models and the upper level 21.5" iMac will result in pretty good volume discounts. Similarly, I think an AMD 8750M (or 8770M ) would work well since only have 8x PCI-e v3.0 interfaces ( since the single package E5 1600 has lane constraints if want to provide 4 physical PCI slots of similar width to current Mac Pro. ). They wouldn't get the scale on the GPU with other current Mac models, but the VRAM buys would overlap.

Somewhere around $130 should cover GPU+VRAM+Heatpipe+misc to hook to Thunderbolt. That's lower than the CPU costs for a E5 1620.

Trying to bring something like that to market close to $2000 seems somewhat counter to their previous strategies. I suppose they could change direction, and I agree that such a configuration would likely sell in higher numbers.


If someone needs PCI-e GPU "workstation" 3D graphics they can just buy a card. If no monitors are hooked to the embedded GPU it is "free" source of 600 GFLOPs of processing power that could be put to use. Heavy duty 3D isn't what this embedded GPU needs to cover. Those running modest 3D or most 2D work this will work just fine. There are lots of happy people with MBP 15" and iMacs. (gamers no, but people doing work yes).

Well yeah. There is a tendency to leverage the gpu for highly parallel workloads going forward, but the level of requirements is quite fragmented.
 
I don't know if these is really much of a change from Apple's current attitudes. Apple has never controlled (or wanted to) what goes in each slot or who can make Mac GPUs.

Every slot? No. But there has never been a Mac Pro or "mac pro like" offering that had all slots free. The nominal "4 slot" configuration has been 3 "free slots". If Apple is sitting in one of the slots they are controlling it. Perhaps it isn't permanent control but control none-the-less. So yes they have shown some interest.


The stumbling block has been that no one has any interest in making Mac GPUs.

There is lots of interest in GPUs into Macs. What is lacking is GPUs strapped to standard PCI-e cards.

If a large fraction of Mac Pro users just use the GPU card that comes in box they buy up until the time they "retire" the box, then that is stumbling block and Apple is very much in the way. No vendors are going to show up unless people are going to buy cards. Increase the number of buyers (demand) and the supply will show up. Decrease the demand and very little to no additional supply will appear.

Apple's change is that they'd upgrade the Mac Pro, so just like any other Mac shipping today, it ships with the current version of EFI, which is what PC EFI cards need to work.

That would have small but not particularly significant impact as a fairly large fraction of folks would already have an adequate card. One of the demand factors here is that the Mac Pro is the only place these cards can go. When the Mac Pro is 1-2% of Mac market and Mac market is 6-7% of overall PC market that is pretty small demand. It doesn't take too many users to don't ever upgrade to make it a blip that is not worth doing certification and support.




Apple likely buys all their OEM cards in one or two rounds. The 5870 they're selling today is one they likely spent $300-$350 on making a year ago. How are they going to sell that for $200 or $250? They'd be selling them at a loss.

Again this is Apple's cock up. If the contract only makes sense for a year then need to line up a new contract the next year. Mac Pro releases shouldn't be going through multiyear gaps. Even if there is no new Intel Xeon E5 class infrastructure to jump to there are other aspects of the system that can lead to very significant increases. The likelihood that Intel, AMD , and Nvidia all coincide on a architecture stall at the same exact time is not that high. It is possible, but not very probable.

CPU and GPU are now on relatively even footing on being able to drive a Mac Pro through an incremental release. There is little reason why the Mac Pro shouldn't be on a yearly schedule just like the rest of the Mac line up.
 

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http://chinese.vr-zone.com/56002/sa...edition-can-let-you-upgrade-mac-pro-03192013/

Sorry guys this is Chinese website, according to this page, it said supports dual firmware: via firmware switch controller.

Photo attached!

7970 reference board has that switch. So this was not something ADDED to make the card for Mac.

So this could mean a couple things.

If the new Mac Pro is going to switch to UEFI with GOP like PC makers, then a switch like that could allow the card to function on older Mac Pros or newer ones that follow new standard.

Or Macs could keep sailing the "non-complaint EFI with UGA" path and this switch really will just be there to work on PCs. But I don't really believe that many PC folks will willingly pay $100-200 more for a card just to get a nifty white paint job. SO why would they ever buy this card?

SO it could mean nothing, or be the sign of a big change.

Interesting times.....
 
http://chinese.vr-zone.com/56002/sa...edition-can-let-you-upgrade-mac-pro-03192013/

Sorry guys this is Chinese website, according to this page, it said supports dual firmware: via firmware switch controller.

Photo attached!

That means it'll keep working if the new Mac Pro supports PC EFI cards only.

----------

Every slot? No. But there has never been a Mac Pro or "mac pro like" offering that had all slots free. The nominal "4 slot" configuration has been 3 "free slots". If Apple is sitting in one of the slots they are controlling it. Perhaps it isn't permanent control but control none-the-less. So yes they have shown some interest.

It's not permanent. You can pull the card. I'm pretty sure if you called Apple up and wanted a bunch of machines you could even special order with no cards.

There is lots of interest in GPUs into Macs. What is lacking is GPUs strapped to standard PCI-e cards.

I think you misunderstand. That's exactly what I meant. No one has any interest in making GPUs strapped onto standard PCI-e cards for the Mac. There aren't enough sales out there.

It makes what Sapphire is doing likely a one off.

If a large fraction of Mac Pro users just use the GPU card that comes in box they buy up until the time they "retire" the box, then that is stumbling block and Apple is very much in the way. No vendors are going to show up unless people are going to buy cards. Increase the number of buyers (demand) and the supply will show up. Decrease the demand and very little to no additional supply will appear.

I think a machine coming with a GPU out of the box is something users expect. Apple could also increase aftermarket RAM sales by shipping machines without RAM, but that's one of those things users kind of expect to.

The only time I can think of where users actually expected a Mac to ship without a GPU was the Xserve, and that was a config option.

The other problem, of course, is if people are buying a Mac without the intent to ever upgrade the GPU, they're probably buying an iMac.

That would have small but not particularly significant impact as a fairly large fraction of folks would already have an adequate card. One of the demand factors here is that the Mac Pro is the only place these cards can go. When the Mac Pro is 1-2% of Mac market and Mac market is 6-7% of overall PC market that is pretty small demand. It doesn't take too many users to don't ever upgrade to make it a blip that is not worth doing certification and support.

And that's the other risk in Apple not including a GPU. If Apple doesn't include a GPU, and doesn't make GPUs, it's very likely no one will make Mac Pro GPUs and users will have a giant boat anchor.

Of course adopting support for PC EFI cards could change that equation, but still, I don't know many users who would get a Mac Pro without a GPU.

Again this is Apple's cock up. If the contract only makes sense for a year then need to line up a new contract the next year. Mac Pro releases shouldn't be going through multiyear gaps. Even if there is no new Intel Xeon E5 class infrastructure to jump to there are other aspects of the system that can lead to very significant increases. The likelihood that Intel, AMD , and Nvidia all coincide on a architecture stall at the same exact time is not that high. It is possible, but not very probable.

Mac Pro stall aside, I think Apple's answer would be that if the third party market is on their own upgrade cycle, the third party market needs to step up and ship their own cards.

If AMD comes out with a new card mid cycle, it's their job to ship a Mac version. Apple isn't going to handhold all the GPU makers and beg and plead with them to ship every single one of their cards for the Mac and pretty please help Apple make an OEM version.

Maybe people would like them to, but it's not going to happen.

CPU and GPU are now on relatively even footing on being able to drive a Mac Pro through an incremental release. There is little reason why the Mac Pro shouldn't be on a yearly schedule just like the rest of the Mac line up.

I don't disagree, but Apple is infamous for upgrading the Mac Pro, only to be followed by AMD and NVidia rev'ing their GPUs anyway. It seems like even if Apple is on a yearly upgrade cycle people complain.
 
I think you need to consider that NOBODY wants to do the support for multiple Mac GPUs. Sitting somewhere is a room full of "Geniuses" reading from their scripts. The scripts ONLY have to have parts for cards that Apple considers "real". The second the Mac Pro can run EVERY GPU out there, the "Genuises" will be overrun with calls from people around the globe "I have a Techron 3000 with 2 DVI ports and butter churn attachment, how do I make iTunes work?"

Different cards by different manufacturers come with different ports in different countries. Nobody, least of all Apple, wants to answer questions from all of the potential combos of OS's, drivers, and cards. WIth an iMac or MBP, there are only 2 or 3 GPUs, easy enough to arrange the script so that any moron can play "Genius". If you open the field to include EVERY GPU MADE, who really wants to deal with that?

Nobody. And I think that has something to do with why we have the 2 GPU companies packing the OS with drivers for dozens of cards but very few "supported" cards. Try calling EVGA and ask why your 570 runs at PCIE 1.0 speed...they'll ask you to look in your "Start" menu and see what version of "Forceware" you have on your "C drive". They don't have a Mac Tech department and don't want to start one.

So you end up with what you have. A few "rogue" types who hack the frameworks left for us. And a few brave manufacturers who actually sell finished cards with real support.

Support the people who create the cards and there will be more choices.

Want to see more AMD choices in the future? Thank Sapphire for taking this on by buying up the official 7950 from them. Make them glad they tangled with our market.
 
I do agree with supporting Sapphire... but to a point. Even though they are taking a business risk providing a niche product like this, the product has to meet the needs of the purchaser.

I was hoping that they would have adopted a large-fan cooling solution for the acoustic benefits. I was also hoping for an option of more VRAM. I do understand the need to work within the power boundaries that Apple has advised by picking the mid-range card and I respect that.

I think they have taken the safe option every time they have been presented with a design choice on this product, but I suppose that plays into what I feel is the general Apple philosophy of "it just works". Their big risk is the money they have spent on developing the firmware solution for the card.

If the card provides full PCIe 2.0 speeds under Bootcamp and transfers audio easily to an ACD I will give this card serious thought.
 
Hmm, the sapphire page says it does not support anything earlier than 2009 Mac Pro..

Isn't it the same with apples own 5870, but that worked with the 2008's anyway, right?
 
Hmm, the sapphire page says it does not support anything earlier than 2009 Mac Pro..

Isn't it the same with apples own 5870, but that worked with the 2008's anyway, right?

Yeah, there's a difference between official support and compatibility. The 5770 and 5870 were officially supported only in 2009 and later Mac Pros. However, they worked just fine in, and hence were compatible with all of them, right back to the original 2006 models.

It'll likely be similar with this card. Note the full system requirements:

Mac Pro with Mac OS X 10.7.5
CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive for installing software
Mac Pro with Mac OS X 10.8.2 or later
2 GB RAM, Early 2009 Mac Pro (MacPro4,1)

I read it that AMD are providing drivers for Lion, so the card should work in all models running Lion. Snow Leopard users look to be out of luck, though.
 
Anyone know exactly where we can buy this? The newegg link in their youtube video says it has been deactivated and i can't find anywhere else.

I'd like to support sapphire in this even thou the price is a "tad" higher than PC versions
 
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