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SATA Express meets the '09 Mac Pro - Bootable NGFF PCIE SSD

Hello Rod,

Would it be possible for you to get your hands on the Addonics mSATA card and try it with the mSATA drives you have in stock? It seems like a very inexpensive way to get into the high 1000s MB/s using 2 or 4 drive RAID0s...

Loa
 
RamCity said:
Actually both the Lycom and Bplus adapters are equally fast, and my guess is that the Addonics card (which looks like it might even be a Lycom underneath) would be the same. Barefeats.com will have some very impressive performance numbers to reveal in a couple of days once the XP941 RAID testing in a Mac Pro is complete.

I wont spoil it though and since handheldgames was the first to figure out that the XP941 is a bootable solution and pointed to the issue with slots 2/3 sharing just 4 PCIe lanes, then its only fair that he should be the first to quote the final results here on the forum.
Click to expand...

Slot #2 is a 16x slot.
Slots #3 & 4 share a single 4x channel.

Regarding addonics / lyCom. AFAIK, addonics appears to be selling LyCom products. The cost of the lyCom board is extremely reasonable as reflected by the Addonics price, which is still "high" considering it's basically a pcb, a few resisters and a ngff socket.
 
RamCity said:
Actually both the Lycom and Bplus adapters are equally fast, and my guess is that the Addonics card (which looks like it might even be a Lycom underneath) would be the same. Barefeats.com will have some very impressive performance numbers to reveal in a couple of days once the XP941 RAID testing in a Mac Pro is complete.

I wont spoil it though and since handheldgames was the first to figure out that the XP941 is a bootable solution and pointed to the issue with slots 2/3 sharing just 4 PCIe lanes, then its only fair that he should be the first to quote the final results here on the forum.
Click to expand...

flowrider said:
I don't believe Slots 3 & 4 share a single channel. I believe they are independent PCIe V2.0, 4 Lane.

Lou
Click to expand...

The pic shared on page 2 is from Apples documentation. Unfortunately, they are definitely a shared 4x bus. Some benchmarks under way will show the ceiling on those 2 slots can easily be saturated to a maximum thruput of 4x.
 
Loa said:
It seems like a very inexpensive way to get into the high 1000s MB/s using 2 or 4 drive RAID0s...
Click to expand...

Addonics/LyCom mSATA card is PCIe x2 electrically. Bit more than 800MB/s maximum - due to 8b/10 bus encoding. Certainly won't break 1000MB/s.
 
666sheep said:
Addonics/LyCom mSATA card is PCIe x2 electrically. Bit more than 800MB/s maximum - due to 8b/10 bus encoding. Certainly won't break 1000MB/s.
Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks. Are PCIe X4 cards necessarily be more expensive?

Loa
 
Hello,

What I meant was: if Lycom were to build their four-slot mSATA card as a PCIe X4 card (instead of X2), would the card itself cost more than their current X2 card?

http://www.addonics.com/products/adm2px4.php

I don't mind using RAID0s, so using a few "slower and cheaper" mSATA drives would boost the total speed. Using four M500 256GB drives in a RAID0 would bring us to 1500+MB/s for a LOT less than using 2 of Samsung's very fast and very expensive drives, all in a single PCIe slot. But for that to happen, we need Lycom's card in a PCIe X4 version.

Loa
 
RamCity said:
Currently PCIe 2.0 x4 M.2 SSD's are about 60% more expensive than standard mSATA SSD's are.
Click to expand...

Hopefully the numbers will drop into place -or- someone will release a PCIE card that supports the apple PCIe Ram slot. Considering the samsung parts are identical except for the PCB fingers, they do offer a cost savings over their non apple offerings. That's a first.

----------
Loa said:
Hello,

What I meant was: if Lycom were to build their four-slot mSATA card as a PCIe X4 card (instead of X2), would the card itself cost more than their current X2 card?

http://www.addonics.com/products/adm2px4.php

I don't mind using RAID0s, so using a few "slower and cheaper" mSATA drives would boost the total speed. Using four M500 256GB drives in a RAID0 would bring us to 1500+MB/s for a LOT less than using 2 of Samsung's very fast and very expensive drives, all in a single PCIe slot. But for that to happen, we need Lycom's card in a PCIe X4 version.

Loa
Click to expand...

The issue is with the Marvell chipset as it only supports a x2 connection. Hence x4 card. X2 performance.
 
Hello,

While we're talking about very high-speed drives: is there any chance that someone could mod/hack a RevoDrive 350 for Mac use?

Loa
 
Loa said:
Hello,

While we're talking about very high-speed drives: is there any chance that someone could mod/hack a RevoDrive 350 for Mac use?

Loa
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance, but why would it need to be modified? What is the barrier that prevents it from working in a cMP?
 
crjackson2134 said:
Forgive my ignorance, but why would it need to be modified? What is the barrier that prevents it from working in a cMP?
Click to expand...

Hello,

I wrote an email to OCZ and they say it's not compatible with Mac. Maybe once they get out in the wild someone will try it and see, but for now I'm not getting my hopes up.

Loa
 
handheldgames said:
Rob-art at bareFeats just posted a great insight! http://www.barefeats.com/hard183.html
Click to expand...

Wow!!

And, an interesting tid bit from the article is that it refers to two other PCIe flash storage products coming on the market (OWC Accelsior ProQ and Sonnet Tempo 4 MSATA SSD Pro). The Sonnet card uses a PCIe 2.0 x8 connector and has 4 mSATA cards on it!! It is shown here: http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-news/latest-buzz/sonnet-tempo-4-msata-ssd-pro/

Now we're talking! At least it shows > x4 lanes can be done on such an expansion card. Hope some more manufacturers get on to this idea, just put M.2 SSD's on it instead! :)
 
Macsonic said:
Awesome! Thanks for sharing this. Hope the price is "reachable" Would be great to have this on the cMac Pro.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, PCIe flash performance is at a price premium these days due to low availability in the marketplace. For comparison, on ebay Apple/Samsung pcie flash is selling for $269 with free shipping for a 256Gb part vs today's delivered cost of $375ish for an ngff/pcie part. This is delivering margins of 40%+ over equivalent apple parts. Compared to the samsung 840 pro, the price is 81%+ higher.

Now keep in mind, Apple PCIe flash is essentially the same product as Samsung pcie flash, with a different connector. Why going to a non-apple part garners a 40% increase in cost, as that shift should usually come in much cheaper that what Tim's team has cooked up.

While 2014 has been claimed to be the year for PCIEe flash to take off, the artificial prices we are experiencing in the market are holding the technology back from mass adoption.

For those, like myself who enjoy running the cMP with the fastest performance possible, the price is something we accept today irrespective of the increase. As there is nothing else on the market that can deliver this performance.
 
handheldgames said:
Unfortunately, PCIe flash performance is at a price premium these days due to low availability in the marketplace. For comparison, on ebay Apple/Samsung pcie flash is selling for $269 with free shipping for a 256Gb part vs today's delivered cost of $375ish for an ngff/pcie part. This is delivering margins of 40%+ over equivalent apple parts. Compared to the samsung 840 pro, the price is 81%+ higher.

Now keep in mind, Apple PCIe flash is essentially the same product as Samsung pcie flash, with a different connector. Why going to a non-apple part garners a 40% increase in cost, as that shift should usually come in much cheaper that what Tim's team has cooked up.

While 2014 has been claimed to be the year for PCIEe flash to take off, the artificial prices we are experiencing in the market are holding the technology back from mass adoption.

For those, like myself who enjoy running the cMP with the fastest performance possible, the price is something we accept today irrespective of the increase. As there is nothing else on the market that can deliver this performance.
Click to expand...

Thanks Handheldgames. Your inputs makes sense from a business marketing standpoint and I also learned something. Probably what we have now for PCIE flash is good as it is.
 
handheldgames said:
Unfortunately, PCIe flash performance is at a price premium these days due to low availability in the marketplace. For comparison, on ebay Apple/Samsung pcie flash is selling for $269 with free shipping for a 256Gb part vs today's delivered cost of $375ish for an ngff/pcie part. This is delivering margins of 40%+ over equivalent apple parts. Compared to the samsung 840 pro, the price is 81%+ higher.
Click to expand...

If you are using our website for pricing comparisons and quoting USD (I assume you are), then keep the following in mind:

Our prices are in AUD, and also include 10% Australian GST, which doesn't apply to overseas purchasers and is removed once your shipping country is determined.

For example:

256GB XP941: $367.99 inc GST AUD = 334.53 ex GST AUD = approx $314 USD

add $29 for shipping and that's $344 all up.

Now that I've done the sums, there's not that much difference from your quoted figures, and certainly no arguing with the point you are making. I've been pushing as hard as I can to get our purchase prices down but Samsung wont budge. I'm hoping that's going to change soon with these new competitive products around the corner.
 
Installation done :)

Samsung SSD XP941 256 GB (250 €) + DeLOCK PCIe 1 x M.2 NGFF Carrier (25 €) bought in Germany.

All working fine.

Blackmagic
940,8 Read
790,8 Write

Thanks to handheldgames for this solution. :D
 
@ Ramcity

something is wrong with your table on barefeats

I get 700 MB/s in a PCIe 1.0 4x of a Mac Pro 2008 (slot 3). A new hope for Mac Pro 1,1 and 2,1 user.

attachment.php


attachment.php
 
TzunamiOSX said:
@ Ramcity

something is wrong with your table on barefeats
Click to expand...

Rob said the table was ok, but the notes referring to the PCIe 1.0 x4 slot did need adjusting, which is good news indeed. He's going to be lab testing the XP941 cards we sent him in a Macpro1,1 and Macpro2,1 soon to confirm the other numbers.
 
Hello,

I don't wanna rain on XP941's parade, but this is how I see it.

When using only 1 PCIe slot:

-512GB XP941 + adapter = 950MB/s reads - 800MB/s writes. Mac Bootable. Price: ~775$ (plus shipping)

-Two C500 256GB mSATA drives + Addonics adapter = ~800MB/s read and writes. Mac Bootable. Price: ~350$ (plus shipping)


Am I missing something important about XP941? Unless that extra 150MB/s read speed is crucial for you, is it worth more than double the price?

Loa
 
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