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second thoughts about non-stylus design

clevin

clevin

macrumors G3
Original poster
Aug 6, 2006
9,095
1
I just got a Palm T|X recently, it has same resolution as iPhone, 480x320, then I began to play with it, now I found the stylus is actually quite important.

stylus is more accurate than finger, and for a screen, with finger clicking, u can't put too much clickable stuff on it, while with stylus, u can have much more clickable content, without worrying about mis-clicking. Imagine u want to click a link on a webpage, on iPhone, u probably need to zoom in first to some degree before u can click it with your finger.

so, my question
1. will iPhone has stylus as accessory? (build-in would be nice, otherwise, u need to carry a separate stylus?)
2. will iPhone's touch screen has hardware limitation that u can't accurately locate a spot? i.e. even if u use a stylus, iphone will still treat it as a finger, thus will not recognize the adjacent clicks if they are "too close for a finger"?

purely speculation.
 
clevin said:
so, my question
1. will iPhone has stylus as accessory? (build-in would be nice, otherwise, u need to carry a separate stylus?)
Click to expand...
Didn't you answer this in your thread title? It's not Apple's style to go for removable stuff that would ruin sleek design. Not going with the stylus was even mentioned in the keynote - they made a decision not to because they thought they could implement a more simple user interface without.

clevin said:
2. will iPhone's touch screen has hardware limitation that u can't accurately locate a spot? i.e. even if u use a stylus, iphone will still treat it as a finger, thus will not recognize the adjacent clicks if they are "too close for a finger"?
Click to expand...
No you can't use a stylus. The phone has an multi-touch induction-surface. It doesn't have a pressure-sensitive surface like your palm.
 
Yes, the iPhone responds only to skin. You prabably haven't seen the MacWorld Expo keynote address. According to Steve Jobs, "We're going to get rid of all these buttons, and just make a giant screen. Who wants a stylus? Nobody wants a stylus, so let's not use it. We're going to use the pointing device we're all born with. We have invented a new technology called 'multitouch.' You don't need a stylus, and it is far more accurate than any pointing device that's shipped. And boy, have we patented it!"

You can watch the full keynote from http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/keynote/ and about iPhone from http://www.apple.com/iphone/keynote/.
 
well, so we will have to wait and see how good this finger only stuff works.

maybe iphone will have big buttons only, and maybe no menus with >18 px fonts, lol,
 
This is where the UI becomes important.

Sure, with a stylus you can have a thousand tiny buttons on the screen and be able to tap all of them, but that doesn't fit in with the clean UI look that Steve likes.

If you can get the information you're looking for with a minimum of fuss and with your finger, why not? I don't use the stylus on my phone half the time anyway, because like Steve said, it's a pain in the ass.

If the UI is designed well, I shouldn't need anything as tiny, annoying and easy lost as a stylus.
 
The UI is designed to work with the finger. Thats why the icons/buttons are nice and big. Apple dont do clutter. Filling a screen full of crap that can only be accessed with a stylus is not Apples style. At most theres probably only about 8 things on screen at once that is possible to click on the iPhone UI. And that only happens when you go onto the web with the iPhone where Apple has less control over what is displayed.

Having less stuff to click at once makes for a much less confusing UI and a much better looking one.
 
MacboobsPro said:
The UI is designed to work with the finger. Thats why the icons/buttons are nice and big. Apple dont do clutter. Filling a screen full of crap that can only be accessed with a stylus is not Apples style. At most theres probably only about 8 things on screen at once that is possible to click on the iPhone UI. And that only happens when you go onto the web with the iPhone where Apple has less control over what is displayed.

Having less stuff to click at once makes for a much less confusing UI and a much better looking one.
Click to expand...

well, interesting, if u can't accurately locate a spot of 10x10px area, it becomes weird to think it as a "OS".

anyway, since so many ppl say iphone will only respond to finger, I do have another question

1. how exactly does iphone distinguish between a finger touch and a stylus touch?
2. what if i want to put a protector plastic surface on iphone? will that layer affect the touching function?
 
clevin said:
1. how exactly does iphone distinguish between a finger touch and a stylus touch?
2. what if i want to put a protector plastic surface on iphone? will that layer affect the touching function?
Click to expand...

1. Because the touchpad is capacitive. Stylus does not conduct electricity. Your finger does.

2. Yes, it will, so you can't.
 
killmoms said:
1. Because the touchpad is capacitive. Stylus does not conduct electricity. Your finger does.

2. Yes, it will, so you can't.
Click to expand...

1. what if ppl use a metal stylus?
2. thats not a good news, im sure many ppl would like to protect the screen this way, if what u said is true, only hope apple's screen is solid enough.
 
clevin said:
I found the stylus is actually quite important.
Click to expand...

For a palm yes but not for an iPhone. They are two completely different things. For me we have to stop judging the iPhone in terms of other products and start thinking about it's own way of doing things - pretty hard I know since we haven't seen or touched one.
 
calculus said:
For a palm yes but not for an iPhone. They are two completely different things. For me we have to stop judging the iPhone in terms of other products and start thinking about it's own way of doing things - pretty hard I know since we haven't seen or touched one.
Click to expand...

to some degree, yes, u are right, iPhone probably bring many new UI. the unanswered question is if it will be good. lol, guess wait and see is the best way to go.
 
I can understand apple not going with a built in stylus that would go with apple design for a sleek look but not allowing one to work on the iPhone can be a huge huge draw back.
Your fingers can never come even close to the accuracy you can get with a stylus. But this also can tie into the lack of 3rd party software and the rumored lack of a word, excel editor (both of those need a it more accuracy)

I wish apple would allow for it if some one wants to use it because there are just some things that are easier to use the stylus on. Namely anything that requires fine turning.

I own a palm TX as well and there is a fair amount of stuff I can do with out using the stylus but I can easily see the need for the fine tuning that you could only get with a stylus.
 
calculus said:
I don't see how you can say this without having tried out the way Apple have implemented their touch screen.
Click to expand...

coz thats very obvious ur finger is 10x bigger than stylus's point, lol.

if apple were to bring new UI, and ppl would be able to touch with finger accurately, then there will be no buttom <60x60px.

his statement is based on the assumption that apple would use small button or clickable elements, like palm, but as i agree with u before, maybe in the end, iPhone just dont go that way, everything would be big enough for ppl to click with finger. lol,

then, high res means nothing, coz u can't put too much stuff on screen anyway........:p
 
clevin said:
coz thats very obvious ur finger is 10x bigger than stylus's point, lol.
Click to expand...

I can think of many things that you can do with your fingers with more precision than a stylus - stop s******ing at the back!

Edit - um, why is the profanity filter so dumb! Be grateful you don't live in S****horpe... Sorry can't think of a better word than 'Sn1ggering'
 
oh this should be good. What can you do more precision with you fingers on a touch pad than you can do with a stylus. Simple fact of the matter is you finger has a lot more surface area than a stylus and that increase surface area also means increased error.

Because I am drawing blanks on you comment. You can not do fined turn stuff with your figures as you can with a stylus.

So do en-lighted us on the stuff you could do.
 
Rodimus Prime said:
oh this should be good. What can you do more precision with you fingers on a touch pad than you can do with a stylus. Simple fact of the matter is you finger has a lot more surface area than a stylus and that increase surface area also means increased error.

Because I am drawing blanks on you comment. You can not do fined turn stuff with your figures as you can with a stylus.

So do en-lighted us on the stuff you could do.
Click to expand...

Did I say anything about a touchpad?
 
so basicly for the argument here about the iPhone and the touch screen see the point about the stylus. The point that was being made for fine tune stuff on a device with a touch screen a stylus is better for things that require a fine tuning.

I can easy see most of the stuff on the iPhone being fine with out the stylus. It more when it comes to the fine tuned stuff that general would come with 3rd party that coudl really used it.
 
Rodimus Prime said:
a stylus is better for things that require a fine tuning.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the technology has improved, but in all the stylus based devices I've used (mostly Palms), the stylus has to be calibrated regularly to be able to achieve any kind of precision. Hopefully we won;t need to calibrate our finger too much. :p

B
 
Rodimus Prime said:
so basicly for the argument here about the iPhone and the touch screen see the point about the stylus. The point that was being made for fine tune stuff on a device with a touch screen a stylus is better for things that require a fine tuning.
Click to expand...

But the point is that there is no 'fine tune stuff'. Apple came up with the input method and then designed the user interface around that. Everything has been designed to be used from the ground up with your fingers.

Closely spaced links in the internet browser might be a problem but that's why there is zoom and stretch, which apparently works rather well;
New York Times said:
Some Hands-On Time With the iPhone
The Web browsing experience is incredible. You see the entire Web page on the iPhone’s screen. You double-tap any spot to zoom in. Or you use the two-fingered spread-apart gesture to “stretch” the image larger, or pinch your thumb and forefinger on the glass to zoom out again. The manipulation is seamless, smoothly animated—and useful. Using Google Maps to get you driving directions and maps, for example, is just light-years simpler and more powerful than on any other machine, thanks to this “rubber Web page” stretching technology.
Click to expand...
 
BINGO!!! The iPhone is NOT a Treo.

The Treo and Palm PDA's are fine for what they are designed to do, but they're never going to significantly expand their market beyond what it is now.

Everyone who has actually had played around with the iPhone has said that it is even more amazing in person than seeing it at the keynote.

Multi-touch, proximity sensor, orientation sensor, plus the beautiful UI all works together in what will be an amazingly tactile device that will be easy to use for just about anyone.

It's not a Treo.

.Andy said:
But the point is that there is no 'fine tune stuff'. Apple came up with the input method and then designed the user interface around that. Everything has been designed to be used from the ground up with your fingers.
Click to expand...
 
and you just listed a reason that a stylus could be very helpful. Yeah it was designed to where you would not require it but zooming in to click a link would get annoying very fast.
I am not saying include one. I think that would go against the design but what I am saying is it should still have the ability to have one be used in it. I could see easily in 3rd part apps (if apple allows them) that would like the ability to find tune as well as you can with a stylus. Surfing the web would be easier. and doing quite memos to ones self by writing it down on the screen.

But if the users wants one they can go out and buy one.
 
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