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second thoughts about non-stylus design

clevin said:
oh yeah, also
larger target on same size of screen means

less content.
Click to expand...

I think that's a very narrow view of the situation.

What do you mean by content? Do you mean graphical user interface elements? Because the iPhone and the Palm TX don't differ on content; they can both play movies fullscreen, display webpages, play music. But I don't know what you mean by "content."

However, I'm going to assume you meant "function."

So why does the iPhone have less function than a Palm-based PDA with the same sized screen, in terms of user interface?

I'll sum up some points made earlier in this thread:

1. The Palm TX has smaller buttons, but uses a small stylus for input.
2. The iPhone has bigger buttons, but uses human fingers for input.

That means that the Palm TX has more functionality per inch than the iPhone. However: they sacrifice ease of use and user expirience to obtain that functionality. It's harder to pull a stylus out of a slot, and tap the screen instead of using your own finger. It's something you have to learn; it's not a natural way of interacting with a computer. The best interfaces are the ones that are obvious, the ones that don't need explanation.

To simplfy my point: the Palm has more functionality, but is less usable than the iPhone.

Moreover: The TX only registers one (1) tap at a time with it's touchscreen. The iPhone registers several (possibly more) touches with your fingers .. this eliminates the need for several GUI elements that the Palm TX cannot operate without: like scroll bars and zoom in/out buttons. Since these are replaced by gestures, those GUI elements take up no screen real estate, and this gives the iPhone more "content."
 
clevin said:
1. what if ppl use a metal stylus?
Click to expand...

If the touchscreen is anything like the iPod's capacitive click wheel, the size of the object matters as well. For instance, iLounge tried to use a paperclip on the click wheel, and it didn't work. But a ball of foil worked.
 
for all guys think i want to make iphone a palm, sorry if thats what my words looks like, i did mentioned above, I know apple is picking a different way of UI, different of way of using this phone, I just not sure if Market will like it, so i said that lets wait for market to response.

Also, its interesting to really know what the mechanism of the differentiation of finger and stylus is. at least, some ppl's replies do make things clearer a little bit.

if its "testing electronic conductivity" + "size", then obviously normal protection layer and stylus won't work. if its only former, then metal stylus will work. if its only later, conductive protection layer will work.
 
madmaxmedia said:
We actually don't know this for sure. I've controlled my iPod (which uses capacitance detection) through my pants. I have a cotton shirt on right now, and I can control my iPod through the shirt (scroll, not just click ;) ).

Also, many film-type protectors for the iPod come with a sticker overlay that goes over the scroll wheel. I have a rubber case that actually covers the click wheel, and it works fine.

So it might be possible to not only have a screen protector, but possibly thin gloves. You can with the iPod, which uses the same basic technology for user input.
Click to expand...

Good point. I use the clickwheel with the protective film and the iPod sock. I have to push a little bit harder, but it does work.
 
clevin said:
coz thats very obvious ur finger is 10x bigger than stylus's point, lol.
Click to expand...

His point is: what if the click point is a weighted average of the areas of the screen being touched? So your finger is touching more of the screen than the stylus, but it's smart about figuring out where to place the click within that area.

Edit: Wanted to add that the fact that you can touch multiple points at once supports my theory. It already has to do some filtering to distinguish two distinct fingers from one fat one.

Try to see this from the point of view of software: it sees a grid array of several thousand touch elements, each expressing some degree of physical contact. How do you take this array (can think of it as a grayscale image, where the areas with more force are whiter, areas not being touched are black) and decide which specific pixels the user was trying to click on?
 
savar said:
His point is: what if the click point is somehow a weight average of the areas of the screen sensed to being touch? So your finger is touching more of the screen than the stylus, but it's smart about figuring out where to place it within that area.
Click to expand...

no, i don't think thats a reasonable explanation, u can guarantee a user will press a location on the phone with almost same strength all the time. thus the mechanism u said probably will not result in enhanced locating
 
savar said:
You're clearly not an engineer...
Click to expand...

well, u are right, im not, but to discuss the question, better post some easily understandable and reasonable theory rather than guess what do I do, lol
 
clevin said:
well, u are right, im not, but to discuss the question, better post some easily understandable and reasonable theory rather than guess what do I do, lol
Click to expand...

Haha, I thought it *was* understandable and reasonable.

Sometimes with complex technology, even a "simple" solution sounds complicated to people who aren't trained.

Whatever your specialty is, I'm sure there are things you think are simple that outsiders would think is complex.
 
savar said:
Haha, I thought it *was* understandable and reasonable.

Sometimes with complex technology, even a "simple" solution sounds complicated to people who aren't trained.

Whatever your specialty is, I'm sure there are things you think are simple that outsiders would think is complex.
Click to expand...

:D, i just read ur detailed theory, I understand what u said. still, i have one question, maybe not related to the tech, rather than psyh, can users themselves use their finger to the degree of accuracy to allow ur mechanism to work?

My feeling is, although your theory is very nice, apple probably isn't intend to bet on that, and they will just make bigger buttons and less content on a viewable area, rather than make crowded icons and trust their positioning system to distinguish where exactly does a user intended to click.
 
clevin said:
:D, i just read ur detailed theory, I understand what u said. still, i have one question, maybe not related to the tech, rather than psyh, can users themselves use their finger to the degree of accuracy to allow ur mechanism to work?

My feeling is, although your theory is very nice, apple probably isn't intend to bet on that, and they will just make bigger buttons and less content on a viewable area, rather than make crowded icons and trust their positioning system to distinguish where exactly does a user intended to click.
Click to expand...

I hope they can use their fingers accurately. I can, but I have relatively skinny fingers. I think you're right -- Apple has the tough job of making this work for a lot of people, so they will use bigger buttons then we'll see on a lot of the stylus based products.

But that design concept fits in with the rest of their goals too: fewer, bigger buttons is easier on the eyes to read, easier for the brain to scan and see what options are available, and probably more aesthetically pleasing.

I guarantee you Apple is doing something (perhaps in hardware) to filter the inputs to that touch screen. How smart that filter is remains to be seen, but they could improve performance by tuning that filter well.
 
Watching people trying to use a stylus is like watching someone play 'Operation'. Pull out the tweezers and try oh so delicately to extract what you're looking for.

The idea is the OS is it is on a finger scale. On top of the that, the technology was explained as being smart enough to know what button you are trying to press even if you don't hit it correctly, or hit more than one with your big meat hooks.
 
decksnap said:
Watching people trying to use a stylus is like watching someone play 'Operation'. Pull out the tweezers and try oh so delicately to extract what you're looking for.

The idea is the OS is it is on a finger scale. On top of the that, the technology was explained as being smart enough to know what button you are trying to press even if you don't hit it correctly, or hit more than one with your big meat hooks.
Click to expand...

yeah, on a PDA, its better describe iphone as "different market target" than suggesting nobody should use stylus. for you attention, a friend above already detailed possible technology behind the function u suggested about mis-clicking.
 
To address the issue of unwanted touches: I've used an iPhone briefly and it does very well about knowing where you placed your finger. Multiple times i thought it would mistake what i touched but it didn't. Also, in the keynote Steve says that it has something (forget what its called) in the phone that apparently prevents mistaken touches.
 
I'mAMac said:
To address the issue of unwanted touches: I've used an iPhone briefly and it does very well about knowing where you placed your finger. Multiple times i thought it would mistake what i touched but it didn't. Also, in the keynote Steve says that it has something (forget what its called) in the phone that apparently prevents mistaken touches.
Click to expand...

a simple lock or whatever. looking at the picture of the iphone, there is a slide bar on the bottom of the screen, sliding the bar to the left probably will lock the device.

I guess once u have bigger buttons, it does give u more room to make "mis-clicks".

There are no question about if u can click the buttons on iphone accurately, sure apple will make it as good as it can.
 
In the Winter- it will be cold to use just a finger

A stylus would have been nice to use with gloves in the winter...
I am finding a stylus is much nicer and more accurate at times than just a finger.
 
I don't feel like reading this long thread, but I trust people have mentioned that some stuff wouldn't work with a stylus, such as pinch-zoom thing.

EDIT: Oh wow, who brought this back from the dead.
 
nepcker said:
Yes, the iPhone responds only to skin.
Click to expand...

This is incorrect. I was messing with my loaner iPhone, comparing it to the one I was sending back ... you can use another iPhone as a stylus. I tried other electronics, but only the iPhone seems to work. I have no explanation for it ... but it does work. Go to the Apple store, or AT&T store, and grab two iPhones and try it yourself.
 
Yes let's put a stylus on the next generation of iPhones and while we're at it why don't we add hand cranks to the front of all the new cars and hardwire our cell phones to our vehicles. How about we go back to black and white tv too while we're at it? :eek: After all, color is sooo modern!
 
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