I am curious about the politics of this. I mean I wonder why Apple is doing this. I'm kinda hoping they quietly walk this back and drop the idea. It's just fraught with both technical, ethical, and legal problems for what benefit?
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Should I leave apple ecosystem in light of CSAM?
- Thread starter wirtandi
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This argument really confuses me. Apple also *could* steal your credit card numbers, track you with your phone/watch GPS, access your entire iCloud backup, read your emails… do you work yourself up over the fact that they could (but don’t) do these things? Why is this any different?
Not following you.
The supporters of that this tool will repurposed, it's not that Apple will do this rather the Government will force that issue.
1. This does not even address the original question. Apple made two conflicting statements. This needs clarification.
2/3. Thanks. That is a possible. There is concern about how accurate this tool really is and false positives. Dumping of these onto NCMEC could have a negative affect on them.
4. Could be but not seeing how that fits into Apples second verification process. We need a bit ore info here.
5. Agree. I'm looking more at "false positives" due to the impact these could have. Comes back to how accurate the matching really is. Having an appeals process tilts toward the "accuracy needs improvement" side.
6. If so how do the other Cloud providers handle this? I know Google, DropBox, and OneDrive are yet they do this.
7. Agree. I'm definitely not the first to think about this possibility.
Thanks for taking the time. You added a bit to my knowledge.
Once again, I am referring to your claim that Microsoft deletes documents that they don't agree with, etc. Please provide proof of this.
You are correct, they could. But what they cannot do now, is get to my personal files that are only on my devices. They want to change that. That is what I object to.
In the terms of service. You're going on ignore now because you're clearly just here to fight everyone in the forum.
I am not fighting with everyone on the forum. I am replying to you. Have a nice day.
Be interesting to see if it exists as I just finished scanning through the MSA and MS365EULA and could not find his claim.
I did find the MS DCSR.
Digital Safety Content Report | Microsoft CSR
Read about digital safety enforcement efforts from Microsoft. We fight against those who would diminish digital safety and enforce rules to help keep our customers safe.
www.microsoft.com
Most I was able to find:
snip
”
For our part, we prohibit certain content and conduct, and we enforce rules that we’ve set to help keep our customers safe. We use a combination of automated detection and human content moderation to remove violating content and suspend accounts.
The Microsoft Services Agreement includes a Code of Conduct, which outlines what’s allowed and what’s prohibited when using a Microsoft account. Some services offer additional guidance to show how the Code of Conduct applies to their content, such as the Community Standards for Xbox. Reporting violations of the Code of Conduct is critical to helping keep our online communities safe for everyone. More information on how to report violating content and conduct is included below.
Child online safety Addressing TVEC NCII requests
”
I should have been more precise. Google’s services are mostly cloudbased, and most people do not realize that Google does scan for content in gmail, photo’s, documents etc. once your data goes to/through their cloud.
Yeah I should have been more precise. You are right. But most people do not realize how much of Google’s services go ‘through’ the cloud by default, where the content is being scanned. And no, I also don’t appreciate Apple’s on device scanning, no matter how cleverly designed.
Apple device self scans to prevent abusive images going on internet. Badbadbad.
Microsoft, Google, Dropbox, Facebook and just about every other company uses Microsoft’s PhotoDNA to scan abusive images after uploading. Media silent. Activists silent.
PhotoDNA - Wikipedia
It's not the same thing.
Any company has the right to scan the data on their servers. Because it's their servers, and if I want to store my data on them I must accept their conditions.
Nobody has the right to scan the local contents of my device without my explicit permission. Because it's my device, and whatever I choose to store on it is nobody else's business.
But Apple will simply change its terms of service to allow the scan, they can't omit it.
You either agree or you don't use iCloud, its really simple.
Clearly you are new to this thread. Oh trust me, I have been vocal that scanning the cloud is bad too. But they own their servers. I own my phone. I can decide to simply roll my own cloud as they say (and I have).Apple device self scans to prevent abusive images going on internet. Badbadbad.
Microsoft, Google, Dropbox, Facebook and just about every other company uses Microsoft’s PhotoDNA to scan abusive images after uploading. Media silent. Activists silent.
PhotoDNA - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Or switch to another device. Which I have. Stupid Apple. I hate "you are either with us or against us" talk.
You kind of answered your own question there. Precisely because their HAVE been problems with giving companies data and permissions before. It’s a slippery slope that shouldn’t even be walked down to begin with. It also runs counter to Apple’s privacy bent all these years.
It’s also a matter of timing. Giving someone a credit card number was an established thing before iphones even existed. Having a GPS on device was known before even being bought. And most people know email isn’t very secure. But in this situation, we have established platforms, and established devices where Apple comes along and says we are going to change the rules in the middle of the game. Scanning software will now be on your device. But....that’s not what anyone who has ever brought an iphone or ipad ever agreed to. That was not part of the deal. It makes me wonder what other surprises will they spring on their users on a whim going forward?
And the thing that you and everyone else keep ignoring in this thread and that I have repeatedly brought up is that even interally within Apple’s headquarters this has been controversial. When even Apple’s own employees have a problem with it and start raising red flags, everyone should take notice. Because that doesn’t routinely happen. So you should ask yourself why are some Apple employees getting worked up over it and not the other things you listed?
I do work myself up about them. I have been mentioning these things for years, so have many others. Have you not seen the amount of people complaining about no encrypted iCloud backups? They've been complaining since the story dropped.
Many of us have had these concerns but we've been in a stalemate waiting to see what direction Apple would go. Would they double down on true privacy and develop more zero knowledge encryption systems into their services? Or would they instead decide to go down the route of preemptively kneeling to government requests? They decided to go with the latter. This scanning decision is the straw that broke the camel's back per se, it is not a singular/first bad privacy decision Apple have made.
Apple looked at the long list of privacy improvements they could make outside of the ones that explicitly benefit their business (notice how almost all of their recent 'privacy improvements' specifically target Google's ad business) and decided "Nah, we won't do any of those things. Instead we'll do the government's work for them by proving on-device content scanning that 'preserves law abiding user privacy' is possible!" I refuse to believe their team were aloof enough to not realize their technology's role in this grand Hegelian dialect.
Apple knows the situation they're putting customers in. They know the only viable option for leaving iPhone is to walk into the lion's den of Google world. They have no competition to outflank them on privacy and so they can make whatever privacy concessions they want knowing there's no better option. This is why the duopoly of iOS/Android is so terrible and has to come to an end at some point. As Google move towards even worse forms of tracking, Apple will slowly follow much further behind but put a 'privacy' spin on it; any critics will be met with "Well at least it's better than Google!!!!"
To all: Don't let the debate distract you. The debate is a trap.
What change will you make yourself beyond explaining in an online forum?
I've disabled iCloud across all devices. I purchased a Linux-first laptop. I am switching to libre software. I wrote Apple execs to complain. I am on track to ditch Apple over the next 6 months, I haven't sold any devices yet but listed my AirPods Max. I'm taking it slow but my destination is clear: no Apple, as much libre software and open source hardware as possible, paying for all of it.
What change will you make yourself beyond explaining in an online forum?
I've disabled iCloud across all devices. I purchased a Linux-first laptop. I am switching to libre software. I wrote Apple execs to complain. I am on track to ditch Apple over the next 6 months, I haven't sold any devices yet but listed my AirPods Max. I'm taking it slow but my destination is clear: no Apple, as much libre software and open source hardware as possible, paying for all of it.
You do know that Intel CPU or AMD CPU in that Linux laptop is closed source. So much for going open source.
Just you know there are open source CPUs but not in laptops yet.
This post reeks of "yeah but [insert thing here] is made under capitalism though" energy when people critique capitalism.
We know. There's no perfect completely libre open source solution out there. The point is there's better options out there (at least from a power/freedom/privacy perspective) and that's why we're going with them. Would we like there to see better options for CPUs (maybe something open built on RISC-V)? Of course, but we're not there yet. It will take early evangelists putting their dollars where their mouth is before we see better options; i.e, an initial sacrifice of convenience or polish is necessary before the masses can get something excellent.
Fix Consumer Electronics
We know consumer electronics can be better for you and for the environment. Unlike most products, ours are open for you to repair and upgrade
^ Those guys wouldn't exist unless there were early advocates for highly repairable, modern, modular laptops. Some day, after many of us put more resources into supporting paradigms that respect user freedom, we will see many more companies like that popping up with even more lucrative offerings.