Should we sue Apple for not allowing downgrading iOS devices?

[jdiamond]

There's a big difference between hardware obsolescence and software obsolescence. When hardware "moves on" like Chupa Chupa's DVI HDTV example, there is not much that can be done. In a software issue like this, I think we all know that if the issue at hand was possible, our old iDevices would "feel" like they are as fast as they were when they were new. I think we all must believe to some level that part of iOS upgrades is building in code to make older iDevices feel slower. Else, how else do we explain it?

I can explain this as a software developer. Developers are constantly dumping more code into the OS to add features. This gets even worse when leveraging open source software, because then it's easy to spend one day and dump in 10 years of software that was actually developed for PCs, not phones.

A lot of these new features - such as frameworks or user interfaces - are used all the time. More code = slower response. It takes a *LOT* of work to optimize code and make it leaner. If the target for a new OS is a new piece of hardware, and it runs "fast enough", programmers are unlikely going to be given time to try to tune it. And each OS runs slower. My iPhone 5S was fine even through iOS 9, but on iOS 10 it's like I hit "launch app", then do something else, then come back.

It's not to see that new updates are *never* efficient - a couple of times on the MacOS Apple made a concerted effort to speed it up. And before making the iPhone 5 and earlier obsolete, Apple did some heroic work to port modern iOS features back to 32-bit platforms, and in so doing, made them as efficient as possible.

But as a programmer, even if your goal is to make things "as fast as you can", if you're not developing on a slow system, it's pretty hard to analyze.

I often dream of developing a new platform outside of any deadlines, so it can finally be "done right" - you can certainly make any OS features we see today run at full speed on any old device - you just have to rewrite everything.

On the PC, "downgrading" is an old trick to speed up your hardware - like hitting the turbo button.

BTW, for the most direct example, many of us remember the NeXT computer - and NeXTStep is what turned into OS-X, which turned into iOS. The look and feel of a NeXTStep was almost identical to both Windows 2000 and modern OS-X. And it ran fine on a 5 MIPS processor and 8MB of memory. Now that Moore's Law is almost over for hardware, companies are saying the next 10 years of Moore's Law is about the software - mining back that 1,000x slowdown we introduced by being lazy. Once Apple's A-chips hit a wall, it'll be all about making each OS upgrade faster.

 

[AidenShaw]

Agreed, the knee jerk reaction of just sue them, is baseless if Apple is not breaking any law. Just because someone wants something, doesn't mean suing the maker is an option. While I understand and to a degree agree with the OP, hiring a lawyer and then filing a lawsuit that could take years and cost a lot a fortune is silly. No lawyer will take this on for free, they'll expect a retainer and charge you for their work.

The law in question could be the Implied Warranty of Merchantability.

Apple sold you a product with an implication of certain functionality. If Apple takes actions that impair that functionality, and actively refuses to let you undo those actions by Apple, then you could have a legal position to ask for redress.

 

[Tech198]

When the app is no longer available in the app store, u will change your mind about using old software, if u really like using it... Why should u search for an alternative just because a company forces it on u from the OS not being compatible with y app?

Its probably the users fault for upgrading, because Apple gets out of it, as u can downgrade within 24 hours or so... after the fact as its still signed

If the user decides to wait, and not realize that time is up, they have themselves to blame....

Apple gives u that chance,, You missed the it.

 

[olduser007]

I would like this thread to continu with more relevant information.
Those working for Apple (directly or indirectly) should not reply here.
When Apple is getting sued over this, there won't be a settlement. It's not about the money.

 

[maflynn]

Those working for Apple (directly or indirectly) should not reply here.

This is an open forum and everyone has a right to interact.

 

[olduser007]

This is an open forum and everyone has a right to interact.

That's why I wrote 'should not' and not words like 'not allowed'. There is context in why I wrote this.

 

[maflynn]

That's why I wrote 'should not' and not words like 'not allowed'. There is context in why I wrote this.

You telling people they should not post is over the line and that's my point. Its not your place to tell other members what they should or should not do.

 

[akash.nu]

You telling people they should not post is over the line and that's my point. Its not your place to tell other members what they should or should not do.

#respect

 

[gnasher729]

This is an open forum and everyone has a right to interact.

On the other hand, I have never posted about anything that my employer or a previous employer has been doing, because (a) it is unprofessional, (b) it can get your employer into trouble, (c) it can get you into trouble. So I don't think you will find many posts by Apple employees here.

 

[Act3]

On the other hand, I have never posted about anything that my employer or a previous employer has been doing, because (a) it is unprofessional, (b) it can get your employer into trouble, (c) it can get you into trouble. So I don't think you will find many posts by Apple employees here.

being an anonymous forum, there is probably a bit more than you think. They probably dont post from apple IP addresses but who knows.

 

[497902]

I think people who want to downgrade should be allowed to, just like on the Mac platform.

 

[Act3]

I think people who want to downgrade should be allowed to, just like on the Mac platform.

I agree but Apple is worried about fragmentation so they say. Yet they have how many different size devices now with different amounts of RAM

 

[497902]

I agree but Apple is worried about fragmentation so they say. Yet they have how many different size devices now with different amounts of RAM

Maybe they should make it really hard and only allow downgrading to the last version of major releases to keep fragmentation at a minimum but they should definitely make it possible.

 

[Act3]

Maybe they should make it really hard and only allow downgrading to the last version of major releases to keep fragmentation at a minimum but they should definitely make it possible.

that would be a nice start

 

[dogslobber]

If the question is, "Why not sue?" the question I'd ask is, "Based on what points of law?"

This is why the Right To Repair laws are so important to America and the consumer. People assume that this applies to hardware only when it does not.

 

[AZhappyjack]

I would like this thread to continu with more relevant information.
Those working for Apple (directly or indirectly) should not reply here.
When Apple is getting sued over this, there won't be a settlement. It's not about the money.

It’s ALWAYS about money. Don’t kid yourself.

 

[AZhappyjack]

On the other hand, I have never posted about anything that my employer or a previous employer has been doing, because (a) it is unprofessional, (b) it can get your employer into trouble, (c) it can get you into trouble. So I don't think you will find many posts by Apple employees here.

I am sure there are plenty of Apple employees reading and posting on this and the other Apple-centric forums … most likely as private users and not speaking on Apple’s behalf.

 

[olduser007]

It’s ALWAYS about money. Don’t kid yourself.

No it's not, stop putting words in my mouth like one of the moderators did. I don't give a .. about money from Apple, I and many others just want great and long lasting products from Apple. Period!

Also as I wrote in the starting post that Apple has its spies all over these type of forums. Moderators know this to and do of course nothing about it. (for the owners of this forum it is all about the money, and most mods here probably get zero pay)
I write things in context, if a mod from Macrumors thinks that's over the line because of the bubble they live in than so be it. In the meantime... Maybe if Macrumors really cares more about it's forum users than Apple, then they could write more articles on how Apple operates. In other words.. be real.

 

[maflynn]

No it's not, stop putting words in my mouth like one of the moderators did.

I did not put words in your mouth, I just told you that you cannot tell others they are not allowed to post, or to use your exact words: should not reply here.

 

[redheeler]

Apple's refusal to allow downgrades is exactly what's kept me running older versions of iOS. So the technique of forcing people to run the latest version has done the opposite, at least in my case.

I'm surprised it isn't like that for more people, as a device on an older iOS version might seem more rare/valuable due to the fact that once updated, it can't be reverted back. But I'd assume most users simply aren't savvy enough to attempt a revert or research an update before installing.

 

[hfuria]

I agree with redheeler.

I own iPar Air and since iOS 7.1.2 I haven't updated further. That's why it never became slow. Certainly, iOS 11 will be the last supported by this iPad. Obviouly, it would become unusable, forcing us to buy a new one.

The same reason: my iPhone 6s (bought when iPhone 7 was released) was factured iOS 9.3.1, and will be as it is until it dies, as it cannot be upgraded to iOS 9.3.5 anymore.

It's the key point: never upgrade your firmware to major version.

For the ones who have iPhone 4s, iOS 6.1.3 is open today for restoring. Don't miss the opportunity!

 

[Gen0]

I agree with redheeler.

I own iPar Air and since iOS 7.1.2 I haven't updated further. That's why it never became slow. Certainly, iOS 11 will be the last supported by this iPad. Obviouly, it would become unusable, forcing us to buy a new one.

The same reason: my iPhone 6s (bought when iPhone 7 was released) was factured iOS 9.3.1, and will be as it is until it dies, as it cannot be upgraded to iOS 9.3.5 anymore.

It's the key point: never upgrade your firmware to major version.

For the ones who have iPhone 4s, iOS 6.1.3 is open today for restoring. Don't miss the opportunity!

Speaking as the owner of several macs and one iPhone 5c, with other newer iPhones in the family, this sums up my point of view precisely. My 5c runs iOS 8.1.3, because I know that updating it to 10+ will make it unusable, and there are no options to update to a newer, more secure version other than the latest.

I am the sort of person that has run OS X since Leopard as a primary OS, and can tell you that I would have never taken the decade learning Apple's first party design tools had I known in advance that this is the future they would want. EVERYONE knows that you don't update to a 1.0, but Apple tries it's best to make it look as if you don't have a choice. Windows did that first with Windows Update, and look where they are now.

In the event that my phone has a problem, the iTunes factory restore will FORCE it to update. This I think would be key in proving malevolence in a lawsuit because there simply is NO JUSTIFICATION in forcing only updating to the latest version of iOS unless there is profit in it, and that profit can only be in the performance loss influencing your upgrade... oh and used units (which must be reset due to iCloud) being forced to be slower than new or in-hand units that weren't updated.

Finally,

 

[Tech198]

I think people who want to downgrade should be allowed to, just like on the Mac platform.

within limitation of buying a new Mac that is.

In the event that my phone has a problem, the iTunes factory restore will FORCE it to update. This I think would be key in proving malevolence in a lawsuit because there simply is NO JUSTIFICATION in forcing only updating to the latest version of iOS unless there is profit in it, and that profit can only be in the performance loss influencing your upgrade... oh and used units (which must be reset due to iCloud) being forced to be slower than new or in-hand units that weren't updated.

Finally,

I don't quite get the reason we should force Apple just because we decided to do the wrong thing and update..

No one is forcing you to update... You can always do a 'Reset all content and setting on iOS" which will not update at all.

If Apple kept signing every single iOS release from 1.o it would be a nightmare for the user.. Which version do u wanna go to ? How would iTunes respond, giving user an option with every single iOS release in drop down. ? If Apple starts installing the latest only for the device you have, that may not want everyone may want either.

For instance, i'm on 10.3.3 and won't be heading to 11.x anytime in the next year or two.

 

[maflynn]

No one is forcing you to update

No, but they make not upgrading difficult. If you're not careful, you could agree to upgrade wihtout realizing it. Plus for iOS, updates are downloaded without your permission and you need to take extra steps to free up the space.

 

[bruinsrme]

No, but they make not upgrading difficult. If you're not careful, you could agree to upgrade wihtout realizing it. Plus for iOS, updates are downloaded without your permission and you need to take extra steps to free up the space.

Hasn’t 11.x required a 2 step agreement and a passcode?