Snow Leopard vs. Windows 7

[Melrose]

I'm personally looking forward to both. Both operating systems fix some of my main gripes with both OS's

I'm looking forward to seeing both also - in spite of the fact I hate Windows, it will be interesting to see how the quality holds up in relation to the amount of advertising they for it; and, also, how Snow Leopard will turn out.

Especially being since Windows has taken a self-inflicted hit from Vista and Apple has been gaining market share, it'll be interesting to see how both companies handle these futures.

...and, of course, what ads Apple will produce as a comeback to Win7.

 

[whitefang]

I think this sums up my point perfectly. Just because something is the most widespread does not mean its the best. Thats a flawed thought process at best.

Internet Explorer for example has a massive marketshare yet it seems people everywhere hate it.

Yes but that doesn't mean Exchange IS NOT the industry standard because it sucks. It's because it's beats the competition.

 

[steveza]

Some companies have started ditching Exchange. (Don't ask me which, you can find that one on your own, be a big boy) BTW, great example, my University, had Exchange all over, ditched it in favor of another client, don't know the name though.

I would be interested to find out who these theoretical companies are that are moving away from Exchange - I did a quick Google but nothing turned up.

I've been supporting and designing Exchange installations for more than 10 years and I've never heard of a company moving to an alternative platform after their Exchange was successfully installed. I have used most of the mail systems available over the years and Exchange is better than all of them and I could write a few pages on why but I'm sure you can search for this information if you desire.

 

[aznguyen316]

I have a couple exchange outlook emails I check. I dunno how to set them up in either mail or entourage. I suck haha

 

[bigmack209]

you can customize macs more than you think. i don't know why someone at apple did it, but there are leaked copies of beta tested snow leopard on the pirate bay. once again i'm not implying that you should pirate mac OS.

 

[NT1440]

Yes but that doesn't mean Exchange IS NOT the industry standard because it sucks. It's because it's beats the competition.

No one ever said it sucks. Simply stating that its not the best doesn't automatically make it suck. I'm not sure that it beats the competition because it beats out the rest, i think it may have more to do with it being so engrained.

 

[FX120]

So if Exchange isn't the best, do you mind sharing with us what you think is the best?

 

[whitefang]

No one ever said it sucks. Simply stating that its not the best doesn't automatically make it suck. I'm not sure that it beats the competition because it beats out the rest, i think it may have more to do with it being so engrained.

Again, you never worked in a corporate environment nor do you know the industry standards or able to give an opinion to the related area. Therefore, your claims are invalid. Exchange has no competition at the moment.

 

[tubbymac]

No sane corporation will use web-based third-party mail apps or "other" mail programs. Microsoft Exchange is the industry standard.

Ever heard of Google? That ain't a sane enough corporation for you?

 

[aristobrat]

BTW, great example, my University, had Exchange all over, ditched it in favor of another client, don't know the name though.

Exchange is a server. Outlook is a client.

It's a shame that you don't know what they ditched for. What's the name of your University? Maybe there's some public information about it.

I'd love to know if the product they ditched for handles calendaring natively.

Ever heard of Google? That ain't a sane enough corporation for you?

Google uses gmail for its internal employee email accounts? Are you sure about that?

 

[jav6454]

Exchange is a server. Outlook is a client.

It's a shame that you don't know what they ditched for. What's the name of your University? Maybe there's some public information about it.

I'd love to know if the product they ditched for handles calendaring natively.

I would be interested to find out who these theoretical companies are that are moving away from Exchange - I did a quick Google but nothing turned up.

I've been supporting and designing Exchange installations for more than 10 years and I've never heard of a company moving to an alternative platform after their Exchange was successfully installed. I have used most of the mail systems available over the years and Exchange is better than all of them and I could write a few pages on why but I'm sure you can search for this information if you desire.

Ok, sorry about the confusion I created. For reference, I am in the University of New Orleans. I am going to have to take back my University comment. It happens to be that my University didn't ditch Exchange, they just changed the service type they offer. It is now called Outlook Web Access with Exchange support. Basically, email through Internet access. Also, this new service seems to create a deal of complains in the student body because of the following:

1. This new service lacks the old features and eliminates the already existing ones for new features that do not work.
2. If you use anything other than Internet Explorer, you are forced into "Light" mode which basically means an even more crippled version of this service.
3. It doesn't let you use your own Mail application (Mail or Outlook class software). The University's IT department has sent emails with the correct sever addresses and also addressing headaches of the university community regarding access to email, but no matter what the IT guys do, Exchange refuses to play nice.


Ok, so now that I have clarified this. Can whitefang please explain to me why does a "gold" standard service have to cripple you just because you refuse to use MS products? Shouldn't the "gold" standard be compatible with whatever the company's employees or in this case student's own Mail or browser applications?

 

[acurafan]

i also support Exchange since 5.5, companies i know have left Sendmail, MS Mail, ISP hosted POP3/imap, and Notes. not one client my company supports has left Exchange since they have implemented it - it is the de facto standard in corporate businesses i seen.

now as to why MS crippled it for non-IE browsers, it's b/c of bundling, the same monopolistic practice that bought down netscape. they want you to use their own browser....granted apple would do the same thing if they could, but then again they don't have any enterprise mail products businesses want to use, ha.

wait until the next version of Exchange, M$ has promised to play nice in the sandbox, and have cross platform support for browsers, along with bringing back IM. it will be better then Exchange 2007 (which is already good OWA).

 

[tubbymac]

Google uses gmail for its internal employee email accounts? Are you sure about that?

Not sure if they have any rules about forcing employees to use gmail. I do know that before gmail went "beta" it was tested internally by the employees (not just the gmail team). Whether that testing was thorough or just "hey, here's a gmail account you can test if you want" I don't know either.

 

[steveza]

Ok, sorry about the confusion I created. For reference, I am in the University of New Orleans. I am going to have to take back my University comment. It happens to be that my University didn't ditch Exchange, they just changed the service type they offer. It is now called Outlook Web Access with Exchange support. Basically, email through Internet access. Also, this new service seems to create a deal of complains in the student body because of the following:

1. This new service lacks the old features and eliminates the already existing ones for new features that do not work.
2. If you use anything other than Internet Explorer, you are forced into "Light" mode which basically means an even more crippled version of this service.
3. It doesn't let you use your own Mail application (Mail or Outlook class software). The University's IT department has sent emails with the correct sever addresses and also addressing headaches of the university community regarding access to email, but no matter what the IT guys do, Exchange refuses to play nice.

This seems to have been a bad choice but your Uni - I assume they are using Exchange 2007 which means there are a number of connection options available but they have limited you to only using one of them. I support a Uni in the UK who have 50K+ users all of which can use the full Outlook or Entourage clients or OWA if they choose.

The upcoming release of Exchange (version 14) will offer full OWA to all 3rd party browsers.

 

[whitefang]

Not sure if they have any rules about forcing employees to use gmail. I do know that before gmail went "beta" it was tested internally by the employees (not just the gmail team). Whether that testing was thorough or just "hey, here's a gmail account you can test if you want" I don't know either.

But in your previous post you said WITHOUT DOUBT that they were using gmail for their email-service AND NOW you're not sure?? Typical Apple troll.

 

[whitefang]

1. This new service lacks the old features and eliminates the already existing ones for new features that do not work.
2. If you use anything other than Internet Explorer, you are forced into "Light" mode which basically means an even more crippled version of this service.
3. It doesn't let you use your own Mail application (Mail or Outlook class software). The University's IT department has sent emails with the correct sever addresses and also addressing headaches of the university community regarding access to email, but no matter what the IT guys do, Exchange refuses to play nice.

First of all, Exchange includes a web-enabled interface (which is the "Outlook web access" feature you're talking about and it's standard. You can access your mail using a client or through the web, it's convenient.

1) What features does this new service lack? Do tell us.

2) I'm using Firefox to access Outlook Web and I didn't find any crippled features. Infact, I can't tell the difference between IE and Firefox. Do tell us what features are crippled in Firefox?

3) If your university IT staff don't know how to configure Exchange so it allows third-party mail clients to connect, then maybe your university should hire some real professionals.

 

[whitefang]

Ok, sorry about the confusion I created.

Apology accepted.

 

[tubbymac]

But in your previous post you said WITHOUT DOUBT that they were using gmail for their email-service AND NOW you're not sure?? Typical Apple troll.

1. I said things like gmail are starting to cut into the Microsoft Outlook market.
2. Then I asked if you didn't think google was a sane corporation.

Somehow from those two statements you and the other fella misread it as implying that google uses gmail internally. That's either failed reading comprehension or failed logical skills, take your pick.

 

[whitefang]

Ever heard of Google? That ain't a sane enough corporation for you?

That was your quote when I made a statement saying no sane corporation uses gmail.
You implied in your reply that Google uses gmail internally.

Secondly, Microsoft Outlook (not the express version) is targeted towards corporate use, not for general consumer use and nothing is taking away Outlook's share in the corporate world.

 

[polaris20]

Having used OWA in Firefox on all 3 platforms, Safari on 2, and IE6, 7, and 8, I wouldn't say OWA is crippled on other platforms. I don't really care for OWA on any of them, if you compare it strictly on usability to GMail.

However I don't see too many companies switching to GMail for their e-mail solution, given that Exchange really isn't that expensive, and is in your control, as opposed to the recent GMail outages. Exchange is like what, $750 or $800 plus CALs? IMO a small price to pay for a reliable e-mail system under your control.

On the other hand there are open source mail solutions that work very well too, however a company may incur more consulting fees than the saved on the licensing itself. It just depends.

I think the only way Google will have a chance at eroding Exchange's market share would be to make a turnkey appliance enterprise GMail system, similar to their enterprise search appliances. A web-based client attaching to a rackmount box that is still under the control of the IT dept, not dependent on Google for uptime.

It will be interesting to see what happens. I think competition is good, and the consumer benefits. However it's tough in the enterprise market, because there just isn't the backlash against MS's mail server and other products as there is on the desktop. Windows 2008 is a solid OS, and their other products are great too, with the exception of IIS, which just isn't as secure as Apache. Luckily Apache runs on Windows anyway, so no big deal.

EDIT

It looks like even the IIS thing has changed, in terms of security.

http://www.itworld.com/070907websecurity

We're still on Apache though, however it'd be nice to move to IIS given the tie-in with AD.

 

[jav6454]

First of all, Exchange includes a web-enabled interface (which is the "Outlook web access" feature you're talking about and it's standard. You can access your mail using a client or through the web, it's convenient.

1) What features does this new service lack? Do tell us.

2) I'm using Firefox to access Outlook Web and I didn't find any crippled features. Infact, I can't tell the difference between IE and Firefox. Do tell us what features are crippled in Firefox?

3) If your university IT staff don't know how to configure Exchange so it allows third-party mail clients to connect, then maybe your university should hire some real professionals.

I don't think insults cut it. Like I said, I am no Apple fanboy, but I do see things as blunt as they are. My university's IT staff is very capable, and there is no need to doubt them, after all they are graduated IT guys, thing you are not, or have proven not to be.

I won't go into a whole list, but the features are missing enough to cause uproar in the student body.

Fake, OWA sees FireFox as firefox, and still forces you to Light mode. Just try it. I won't lie on that, the site is up for anyone to check it. Go on, just go to the log in screen and anything else than IE slaps you with a forced Light Mode check box being checked.

Edit - Luckily, many of us found a solution, forward our stuff from our UNO emails to Gmail or in my case MobileMe.

 

[edesignuk]

Fake, OWA sees FireFox as firefox, and still forces you to Light mode. Just try it. I won't lie on that, the site is up for anyone to check it. Go on, just go to the log in screen and anything else than IE slaps you with a forced Light Mode check box being checked.

Correct.

OWA is heavily optimised for IE. Using anything else you get dumped in to Light mode, which is pants. It's very, very different.

Exchange 2007 OWA login Window under Firefox. Notice the forced check box on Light mode.

 

[jav6454]

Correct.

OWA is heavily optimised for IE. Using anything else you get dumped in to Light mode, which is pants. It's very, very different.

Exchange 2007 OWA login Window under Firefox. Notice the forced check box on Light mode.

[snip]

So much for "Gold" standard...

 

[edesignuk]

I should say I still really like Exchange, a crippled OWA in browsers other than IE is really a minor niggle. It's pretty solid, very configurable, and generally coupled with an Outlook client causes few support issues.

 

[whitefang]

I don't think insults cut it. Like I said, I am no Apple fanboy, but I do see things as blunt as they are. My university's IT staff is very capable, and there is no need to doubt them, after all they are graduated IT guys, thing you are not, or have proven not to be.

I won't go into a whole list, but the features are missing enough to cause uproar in the student body.

Fake, OWA sees FireFox as firefox, and still forces you to Light mode. Just try it. I won't lie on that, the site is up for anyone to check it. Go on, just go to the log in screen and anything else than IE slaps you with a forced Light Mode check box being checked.

Edit - Luckily, many of us found a solution, forward our stuff from our UNO emails to Gmail or in my case MobileMe.

Doesn't the university have a confidential policy where you cannot forward intranet email to external sources? And your staff is inept if they can't configure Exchange to allow external clients. But then again, this is no Harvard.

Again I ask, what are the features that are missing from Outlook that is causing an uproar? The only thing missing from Firefox is the WYSIWYG editor and everything else is included. And from a corporate standpoint, a WYSIWYG is hardly useful when you're in a mobile/field environment.